Front crank seal leaking again! where do I stand?

[Souster]

Hi All.

About 5/6 months ago I had a timing kit replacement and crank seal done on my 1995 300tdi 90. By my local independent land rover specialist.

All was well for a week, untill I noticed a patch of oil on the drive. Spoke to the garage who replaced it for me free of charge. It didn't leak for a few months after that, other than the odd drop.

I left the wading plug in for approx 1000 miles thinking all would be okay (wrong I know) to then remove it the weekend to find oil pouring out the wading plug hole. About half an egg cup full. But it's continuing to leak.

Where do I stand with the garage? Have I got to pay for replacement now and possibly a new belt? Before they touched the timing belt it was leak free up front.

Thankyou all. I wanted to ask as I'm really unsure, and whether there is any sort of warranty.

[landroversforever]

Well I would be speaking to the garage and questioning the quality of the seal fitted. A seal like that should be lasting for years, not months, so the seal is not fit for purpose.

[Souster]

Well I would be speaking to the garage and questioning the quality of the seal fitted. A seal like that should be lasting for years, not months, so the seal is not fit for purpose.

Thankyou for the reply. That's a very good point!

Could they argue it's the crank? Mind you the old one was fine. I just had it changed as it made sense while the timing belt was being done

[ballcock]

They may have damaged the crank whilst removing the old seal.

[Boydie]

They could only argue that it was the crank if it was scored by the previous seal, this would be quite clear to see and would be radial indentations on the circumference , if they had scratched the crank in removing the old seal then the marks would be along the crank.

I would be taking it back to them and insist on being present during the disassembly or at the very least before they re-fit the new seal, my guess is the seal they supply will come out of a "Blue" packet, I would purchase a genuine seal to be installed just in case.

[landroversforever]

Good point above about being present when the lot is stripped spit again. Would be good for your peace of mind to see it out.

[pete3000]

depends if the have taken their time over it or done a rush job. i.e did they remove the radiator/intercooler to get decent access to the seals. And then as someone has said which seal was used.

There is a quality picture on IRB facebook? page of a timing cover seal butchery done by an indy (the pic of the seal face seems to have gone?)

[vulcan bomber]

The seal runs on the pully not the crank. Could the leak be from the cam shift, I assume this wasn't replaced?

[cackshifter]

Maybe it's wicking between crank and pulley. The o ring is a half baked attempt to seal it,but the key is in the way.

[Boydie]

Vulcan is right,

The inner crank seal fits over the crank timing pulley - not on the crankshaft -, the pulley seals to the crank with a rubber/nitrile "O" ring - the keyway (woodruff) is in front of the seal, the gear is then slipped over the key(s) and tapped to ensure it is compressed hard up to the "O" ring, sealing is provided by the crank bolt pressing the gear hard up to the "O" ring once the front cover has been replaced.

SO IT COULD WELL BE YOUR OIL LEAK IS DUE TO THIS ITEM -- THE "O" RING -- BEING EITHER NOT INSTALLED OR DAMAGED/CUT BY IT BEING SLIPPED OVER THE KEYWAYS INSTEAD OF REMOVING THEM PRIOR TO THE O RING BEING SLIPPED ONTO THE CRANKSHAFT.

Any worn groves in the timing pulley gear caused by the previous oil seal should require replacement of that item

[cackshifter]

The problem is where the keyway is, the O ring has to seal against the end of the Woodruff key. If you look at a used O ring they are usually cut and squashed in that area, the rest is fine. I don't know if it would be possible to maybe just file a tad off the end of the key, and use a smear of something to help seal it, but it has to be a weak point.

[Souster]

Thanks guys for your help.

So the crank isn't the issue then? If they've fitted a modified timing kit and replaced the crank seal. They've obviously messed it up? I did ask them to fit a genuine land rover seal, whether they did or not is another story.

The first time they did it, was pissing out. The second they had sealed it pretty much. I can't see how it can start pissing out again if it's not a faulty seal or in a blue packet.

So the big question? Should I have to foot the bill? Or should they cover it?

[Jon White]

IMHO you won't get anywhere especially after that length of time. Bear in mind it may be leaking from somewhere else that won't become apparent until they strip it down.

Did they replace the timing gear that the seal runs on or reuse the old one?

This could also be caused by excessive crankshaft end float, blocked engine breathers, even piston ring blow by, so oil leaking past the seal could potentially be the symptom and not the root cause of the problem.

Jon

[Souster]

IMHO you won't get anywhere especially after that length of time. Bear in mind it may be leaking from somewhere else that won't become apparent until they strip it down.

Did they replace the timing gear that the seal runs on or reuse the old one?

This could also be caused by excessive crankshaft end float, blocked engine breathers, even piston ring blow by, so oil leaking past the seal could potentially be the symptom and not the root cause of the problem.

Jon

Hi Jon.

They were supposed to fit the modified timing kit. Whether they changed the bottom gear I don't know. I'm pretty certain it's not the cam shaft seal though.

As for crankcase pressure. All breathers are clear. And no pressure at all out of the oil filler cap. Not sure if this is good enough to go by?

[Boydie]

I'm with Jon on this, I think the warranty would have expired, (as they do normally on payment of the final invoice) however you could negotiate a reduction in the labour costs to install a new seal and "O" ring - which of course you will provide - and ask to see "how it's done" so you can observe their installation methods. The woodruff keys must be removed BEFORE the "O" ring is slipped over the crankshaft and re-fitted prior to the cogs being located.

[Souster]

Thanks Boydie. I'll get in contact with them asap and see what they say. It is leaking a fair bit now. Hopefully if they don't foot the bill we can come to some agreement.

How many times should have they got to do it untill it's right?

[Mo Murphy]

Don't stand underneath it.

Mo

[Souster]

Don't stand underneath it.

Mo

Haha it's one way to get a tan.

It's pissing out Mo, all over the panhard rod and leaking down the rod.

[cackshifter]

Might be worth checking crank end float then, if only to eliminate it from your inquiries.

[Boydie]

Would end float cause an oil leak at the crankshaft oil seal ? End float is caused by a worn centre thrust bearing(s) I don't think that a few tho' of additional wear and to/fro movement in a new oil seal will cause oil leakage -- as I've said previously, I've never been wrong but I have been known to be mistaken

[Les Henson]

There's a fibre washer that comes with the kit, and this has to be used on one of the bolts as it passes through the timing chest and into the block. If the washer isn't used, then oil can seep up the shaft of the bolt and into the timing chest. If I remember correctly - bolt above and slightly right of the idler wheel in this picture.

You really need the timing cover off in order to determine where the oil is leaking from, and exactly what has been replaced. If engine oil has got onto your timing belt, then you will need to replace it anyway, as oil weakens it and it can fail prematurely.

Crank end float would have to be considerable in order for it to cause the seal lip to clear the land on the sprocket. O-ring , seal lip, and seal land should all be greased prior to fitting.

Les.

[Boydie]

The photo Les has shown above is of the "later" casting of the timing cover, early castings have a boss cast into the cover directly above the cooling fan boss for a breather - LR never fitted this breather as a cost saving measure.

If you're lucky enough to obtain one tap the boss and fit a breather hose. (I used an old axle banjo fitting and bolt) -- When crossing deep fords with the wading plug fitted the trapped air inside the timing cover cools down quickly causing a small vacuum and can suck water into the casing past the outer crankshaft pulley seal.

If your caseing is identical to the one above a breather can still be fitted by drilling a 1/4" hole in the "boss" next to and at right angles to the top bolt and using Araldite glue in a 1/4" plastic breather hose. The hose then swings around past the A/C compressor and the cylinder head and into the valley in front of the windscreen - unless you use an ARB or similar breather/filter device,

[Boydie]

Go to my photo gallery and you will see photos of the casting in question and the breather tapping. Also if you can, replace the plastic "welch" plug on the inside of the fan shaft bearing with an old American style welch plug, tapped to hold a grease nipple, pump 2-3 good shots of grease into the bearings every time you replace the timing belt.