Hard to locate play in front wheels or possibly axle casing...

[jackbw28]

Hi All,

Just wondering if anybody has any pointers of where to look for a fault which is most noticeable as play felt in the front wheels when the vehicle is rocked laterally by the bumper with the wheels on the ground.

I first noticed this back in Nov last year and assumed wheel bearings, however when the road wheels are jacked up off the road there is no play, even with a large pry-bar against a concrete floor.

I've since replaced all bushes (inc panhard rod) and welded 'washers' over both panhard mounting holes as they were a little rounded. All suspension & steering fixings tight and all mountings in good condition. Only exception is lower front damper holes which need some welding to bring back to round.

All ball joints are now slightly worn after only 25,000mi - I put this down to the play in the front wheels and will not replace until the play is sorted.

Swivel joints fully rebuilt 25,000mi ago with new balls, bearings, bushes and pins. Preload set correctly with no seal etc. However, I did remove a shim recently as I started to get a steering shimmy occasionally and they seemed to have got a bit loose (tested after disconnecting all rods) after after initially doing the work. Pre-load not measured properly this time.

Under the vehicle whilst it is being rocked laterally no play can be detected anywhere - none at all between the swivel ball and housing either at the top or bottom. None at any panhard rod mounting or the bracket that is bolted to the chassis via the steering box. Only place play can be felt is the the discs, rim or wheel.

So, back to wheel bearings - I replaced them with SKF bearings and ensured the outer races were fully tapped in. Made no difference and the old Timken bearings were in good condition. However I did notice the bearing inner race felt a little loose on the pattern part stub axle journal, but didn't measure the clearance. Finally I ordered a pair of genuine stubs from the UK and managed to fit just one today (too much rain here atm!). The bearing is certainly a tighter fit on the journal. Whilst at it I replaced the bearings again (SKF) and inspected the hub itself for any damage - none to be found and the outer race is still a good interference fit, though again nothing measured.

However I can still feel play on the wheel with the new stub, although it has reduced. The play on the other side is still of-course present and just as bad as it was before - which is quite bad.

Only symptom's when driving is a slightly unpredictable brake pedal (again suggesting discs moving in relation to callipers pushing the pots in a bit), a light steering shimmy/vagueness if one wheel hits a hole or bump hard and some vibration at hwy speeds.

Sorry for the long post, but any ideas folks?! sure I'm missing something trivial... Due to the above I'm convinced it's a problem in the hub/stub axle and not the swivels or a floating axle casing, but after today I'm a bit lost!

Thanks.

[Dave W]

Just for sanity... how are you setting/tightening the two wheel bearing nuts ?

From what I can understand you are saying there is play in the wheel bearings even after replacing the bearings and races. To me this would suggest you're either not setting the nuts correctly or you are missing the thrust washer. If the play in the wheel bearings doesn't go away when you tighten the inner nut up with new bearings then either you have the wrong bearings or the thrust washer is missing.

[elbekko]

Easy check: crank the nut on the wheel bearing as far as you can, try the rocking again. If it's gone, at least you know that's where your problem is.

[jackbw28]

Thanks for the replies,

I'm setting the preload using a common method (I think) that I've used successfully may times. With the drive flange off, road wheel lifted but still fitted to the hub I gently tighten the inner nut (with spacer fitted) whilst rotating the wheel. I tighten it a 'bit tight' then back off before re-tightening just enough to eliminate any play I can feel by rocking the wheel. I do this a couple of times for good measure and also tap the hubs with a soft mallet a few times to help ensure the bearings are well seated. Then fit the lock tab and other nut ensuring the inner nut does not move as the outer one is tightened...

The thing is; the play does go away to what you can feel doing the above. All feels good and you can't get anything to move - but then put the car back on the ground and shake it side to side and there is a lot of play at the wheels!!

I Think it's in the hubs but could be wrong... What typically causes a play felt at the wheels which can only be detected with the vehicle on the ground? No play when wheel is lifted.
After checking all suspension fixings and bushing I still suspect hub/stub axle assembly over the swivels but it could be anything.

Today I accurately measured the diameter of the bearing journals on my old and new stub axle as well as the inside diameter of the inner bearing race and think this could well be my problem and only shows up under load regardless of how tight I do up the nuts (I did test doing them up very tight!). Values below (mm):

Old Stub: New Stub Bearing
Outer Journal: Outer Journal 45.220

45.180 45.230 45.220

45.190 45.230

Inner Journal: Inner Journal

45.205 45.230

45.200 45.230

So, my bearings were indeed a loose fit on the old shaft - so much for pattern parts!

My concern is now I still have some play on the side of the vehicle with the new stub fitted. I haven't got round to changing the other stub and there is still a lot of play that side. I'm just hoping the play I'm feeling on the new side is actually the play from the other side. I guess I wont know until I find time to change the other stub, but I've a feeling it's not the whole story...

[bodumatau]

and you are 100% sure you are not feeling your rear ball joint or something coming from the rear, knocks can be very deceptive...

I find getting someone to shake the vehicle heftily laterally while being in the pit under the vehicle and putting my hand or fingers over any parts that might move gets me the best results.

what also works is using a "mechanics" stethoscope, put a long screwdriver on the part you think it knocking and push your ear against it, do this on a few different spots and you quickly hear where exactly the knock is coming from.

sorry if I am stating the obvious but these tips have helped me in the past.

[jackbw28]

Thanks for the advice. I've had another good look & feel including the rear - all good except for the existing play!

Think I'll just wait until the weekend, change the other stub axle and bearings and see what happens.

Thanks again all and I'll report back with what happens.

[Souster]

What age is the vehicle?

[Dave W]

The easy way to verify if the movement is in the wheel bearings or not is to have someone apply the brakes - if the movement goes away it's the wheel bearings.

[jackbw28]

Vehicle age is '89. As a whole it's been changed quite a bit and now as a def spec 200tdi, R380 G/box and a rear axle off a puma. Front axle however is standard with the exception of later vented discs, callipers and diff.

And today I'm very happy, just found time to swap the LHS stub axle and wheel bearings. Put the vehicle on the ground and the play is gone!! So the play I was feeling in the RHS after changing the stub axle that side must have been me feeling play from the left.

very chuffed and another warning for pattern parts being more hassle than they are worth - they were machined to the wrong size as per my dimensions above!

Thanks for the advice everybody and for the tip Dave.