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80" special - what mechanicals for perfect recipe? (non-LR welcome


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After finishing the last project, I've been toying with building a little 80" in the style of an old Willys MB Jeep from scratch - to the point that I've just ordered an expensive set of factory drawings for the chassis and pressed panels (don't worry it'll be a Q-plate and that's only if I think I can get it through an an SVA). It'll be a simplified design - like a vintage trialler really - so no complex curves or pressings.


The alternative was a Locost - and an 80" will be more use.


I'd like to find components that are roughly the same dimensions as the original units (engine/box/axles/etc) but bombproof and I only really know Land Rover parts.


So if originality/the ALRC rules/DVLA wasn't a factor - what would be the perfect recipe for a 80" drivetrain?


Aim would be to make it simple, lightweight and reliable in poor conditions - like a big quad. Without a small rear prop.


4-cyl diesel would be ideal (100bhp+ any make capable of handling harsh conditions), ideally auto, ideally Toyota axles. Thought a defender cluctch/brake and cable throttle. would work for was thinking about either a standard SIII steering setup or a P38A power steering box


Common, cheap, OE units are the aim.


Appreciate any pointers.












I was thinking about a 2.5 NAD or even a 300TDI if I can find space for the ancilliaries - coupled with some big but thin generic radiator/intercooler from a scrappy.


Axles - I've heard amazing things about toyota axles - being bulletproof and coming with discs and an electric LSD.


Steering - was thinking about either a standard SIII setup or a P38A power steering box.


Pedals - thought defender cluctch/brake and cable throttle.


Gearbox - stuck. Every one I think of is quite long. I wouldn't have a standard series box - so I thought about an R380 plus the Series transfer box but thats still too long and an LT230 is longer still. So started thinking about toyota engines/boxes

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Interesting!

Due to the very short wheelbase it would be difficult to fit an automatic I think. So you might be stuck with a manual. I think one of your goals would be to keep it as light as possible. Toyota LJ70 axles are not much wider than Series axles, have disc brakes (not 100% certain on rear discs), aftermartket stuff galore like lockers, shafts... the lot. They're relatively light but plenty strong for a lightweight 80", have good ground clearance due to the 8" diffs. Should not be too expensive to buy either.

Engine wise I was thinking, you might laugh about this one, a VW 1.9turbo diesel with a suzuki gear and transferbox. I've seen this engine/gearbox (and 6.5:1 transferbox) combination in action in a 1700kg metaltop samurai on 35" rubber and was quite impressed. Plenty of power, revs well, It did good. Doesn't weigh as much as many other options either. Lenghtwise it shouldn't be too bad as it sits in a tiny little suzuki originally.

You could keep the bulkhead standard. I wouldn't keep those ridiculous mushroom type pedals if it has those.

PAS is quite easily done with a P38 steering box setup. Keep it softtop with a rollcage. This way it would be light, strong components and plenty of power to turn the wheels of your chosen size.

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Thanks bud - yep fancy something completely different. The 1.9 VW is a good shout I understand its a common fitment into Suzukis in the US and adaptor plates are available.

I'm actually toying with finding a single donor for the majority of parts - and thought a Cherokee might make a good source. Lots of 'generic' parts (Dana axles, Aisin transmission, etc) and would make the SVA process easier.

Don't want to upset anyone on the forum by going too far from Land Rover parts so happy to pull the thread if mods prefer.

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There's no restrictions on non landrover projects in this sub forum.

Cool idea for a retro trialler.

I would go for tlc70 axles, not sure where I'd go for an engine and gearbox. Maybe a 3.9 rover and 101 box?!?!

I'm pretty sure the engine and box out of a cherokee will be way too long for an 80"wheelbase.

Another option could be series box and a turbocharged 2.25 or 2.5.

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I'm wondering if you couldn't source a lot of the bits from a time-expired Toyota HiAce minibus/people-carrier/camper-van?

A lot of the grey-market imports that came from Japan a decade or so back were turbodiesel 4x4 and automatic.

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The 1.9 diesel was fitted to the sj in Spain and I believe you can get a bell house from the dealer for £££

If I was building a small unusual looking trialler I would go for an lj80. Relatively cheap, light, short and samurai bits are cheap and easy upgrades. You could go vitara 1600 engine with samurai box and low ratio sj tf box or for more poke a vauxhall 2.0. Not sure how long the vauxhall boxes are though. I think the manta and Carlton were both rwd. Land rover axles would be more than strong enough if you wanted to go wider still. Jimny suspension worked well on my sj too. Infact I bet you could pick up a cheap jimny off co part that could make a good start unless the willies look is important.

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the 1.9TDI is really short, and has been fitted to a series box before, but with it so short, you may well be able to fit an auto behind it.

Pic of it installed: http://hooniverse.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/TDI-Land-Rover-Installed.jpg

http://hooniverse.com/2010/11/04/engine-swap-nightmares-a-1-9l-vw-tdi-into-a-series-iia-land-rover/

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I know a guy who sells the adapter plate and stuff to bolt a VW 1.9 to the suzuki gearbox. I don't know how much it is though. That engine/gearbox combo is tiny and quite light. I would think a cherokee has a big heavy engine/gearbox combination. They came in 4cylinder flavor as well if I'm not mistaken. But the gearbox/transferbox is quite bulky from what I remember.. Reliable as well those VW engines, and a dime a dozen in every scrapyard.

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80" is very short voor a Land Rover engine and auto box !!

This is a car my brother is building: Suzuki Samurai chassis, RR axle, 3.9 EFI, autobox/lt230.

http://www.uploadjefotos.nl/foto.php?id=0c1cc83dffc02f2857c4ee60306264de

http://www.uploadjefotos.nl/foto.php?id=24376d9aab3fc6cfb7eb4e67d0ae82c3

http://www.uploadjefotos.nl/foto.php?id=db326749869332fbf37c5d609e56b3ef

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Right - thank you very much indeed for the above replies - those coupled with a night of research and this is what I've found:


Axles - I want strong ones so we're looking at Toyota or Danas. Toyotas are great but are surprisingly hard to come by, tend to be all rusty and command a premium. However the old Jeep Cherokee axles can be found everywhere in great condition and are dirt cheap (£50-£100 each or £500 for a whole car with MOT!) and used a high pinion Dana 30 on the front and a Dana 35 on the back - these units are considered to be really good axles and were original fitment on Jeep Wranglers. The cherokee has coils on the front but these brackets are easily removed and replaced with leaf perches. So - Cherokee axles it is - plus the Cherokee has the same bolt pattern as the wrangler so I should be able to find some inexpensive steel wheels for it. But to be honest I'll probably keep the Cherokee alloys and powder coat them black.


Suspension - sticking with leaves, standard Willys sizes standard height - will contact a spring manufacturer in the us once I have a better idea of the sprung/unsprung weight of the car.


Transmission - here's the problem area. With an 80" wheelbase (which I really love and is non negotiable) the choices are neglegable - the GM/Ford/Chev 5speeds simply won't fit well. As far as I know no Toyota gearbox/transfer box is short enough to avoid a short rear prop. Yes I could go with a Samuri box but it seems odd to have a bombproof rolling chassis with a comparatively weak gearbox and engine.


I could go for a TH350 auto and a Dana 18 transfer box, it would just and so fit. Bombproof but top is still 1:1 so no great benefit on the road.


Luckily the Willys MB right up to the Jeep CJ5 all had fantastic 3 and 4 speed gearboxes - all brutally strong (with a few exceptions from the 1980s) and the original Dana 18 transfer box (or slightly later Dana 20) was, like the Great White Shark, born perfect and can be matched to all the other candidates. So it'll be an authentic 80" Jeep gearbox of some sort - plenty of choice so will just keep my eyes on ebay. Downside is that none of the gearboxes have an overdrive gear - top is always 1:1 so cruising speed will be dictated by the diffs ratios (quite a few readily available, lowest is 3.07:1 highest is 4.56:1) and tyre diameter. There was a T5 5-speed fitted in the 80s but it has a horrendous reputation in this application.


Engine: Any 4-cyl, V6 or V8 will do just need to match it to the bellhousing. If I buy a complete Cherokee for the axles it'll likely come with a 2.5 VM turbo diesel or a 2.5 petrol which if in good nick would do the job (if it comes with a 4.0 i6 its going in the scrap. I'll sell off the odd bit and will end up with a pair of axles and an engine for peanuts. I do love the little 1.9 VW TDI as suggested above - it'll depend ont he gearbox tho - if I go for a lightweight box then it'll be either the VW or a vitara engine.


Steering: P38s are easy to come by but it looks like the PAS box from the £500 Cherokee above isn't a bad unit. Some reports of failure on monster jeeps but should be plenty for this little thing.


Chassis: Loads of simplified/strengthened frame plans online - its unbelievably simple compared to a Land Rover chassis. Just going to pick my favorite design - send it to the cutting shop and have the steel stock laser cut. I'll make a chassis table out of MDF and will weld it up.


Body - going to copy the Willys jeep tub using a modular spaceframe of 1" box section steel - plenty strong and bends into nice curves if you make a jig, cross braced where necessary - obviously the bulkhead section will be made of beefier stock. Then will sheet over it all with heavy alloy sheet and stainless MGR rivets. Just keeping the simple, classic tub with a folding screen (I have the drawings for this and its easy to make). No doors, no roof (though as the screen and tub'll be to the original dimensions I could use an authentic Willys one) and no cage (initially).


Pedal box will be home made - I have a few CAD diagrams of suitable pendulum boxes which'll be lighter and simpler than Land Rover boxes and the bushes will be a lot easier to replace. Master cylinders? That old Cherokee again and they'll match the calipers on the axles.


Props - again the old cherokee ones cut down - might need to alter the gearbox end tho - so this'll be a pro job and a balance too.


Wiring loom: home made - not bothering with Autosparks this time. May even salvage as much of the wire from the Cherokee loom as possible to save costs.


Seating - I'll make a seating position to suit my height - keeping the eyeline in the middle of the windscreen. Beauty of setting my own pedals and Steering column. I'll make a couple of seat squabs like in a Series land rover but, assuming the cherokee has leather - I'll strip that off the rear bench seat and use it on the front squabs. Will even have enough leather left to do a cubby box/tool roll/etc.


Result: should be a relatively quick, cheap build (after the 3 year/£14k SIII LR I did last time - which nearly killed me and sickned me towards Series Land Rovers), should cost very little - the X-factor being the Jeep gearbox that I'll have to source from the US I'd say.


It should be an 80" Jeep with (hopefully) a turbodiesel, disc brakes on the front, subtle alloys, etc - but will use mil spec paint. Should be a funky little car - it'll be to a Willys what a Santana PS-10 was to a SIII 109. Reckon I'll be able to get all the donor bits for less than a grand plus another few hundred for the alloy sheet and steel. Will set myself a budget but sub-£2k fully serviced seems doable depending on whether I buy the springs new. With the tiny wheelbase I'm expecting it to perform at least as well as any non-coil 80" trialler. Add locking diffs and, axle articulation aside, think it would compete with a Defender too.


SVA issues will be sharp edges but hopefully little else providing I use a modern engine. Plus Axles and Steering plus Engine = 3 major componenets plus a new built chassis - could potentially keep the Jeep reg. If not, a Q plate is fine by me.


Welcome any comments but at this stage - given the low cost of a Cherokee donor I'm tempted to keep it all Jeep.


PS: I'm without a 4x4 at the moment (sold my SIII and bought a new Fiesta ST) so it dawns on me that if I get a Cherokee with a short MOT then I can pull the seats out and use it as a van to gather the rest of the oily bits and the steel stock before scrapping the shell. Another bonus!

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What about the the rover T16 engine? There was a build thread on here a little while ago and it looked to be a great engine - easy to MS as well apparently.

LC axles are a good way to go, they are stronger internally than a standard LR axle and easily upgradable too. Electronic locking diffs are built in but the later ones have larger brakes so you can only fit 16" wheels rather than 15s.

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Could do worse than look at Freelander engines; the 1.8 petrol is brilliantly perky (lotus elise!) and, when assembled correctly, reliable. The L-series diesel is uncomplicated and has a great rep, and the TD4 is brilliant too, very flexible & torquey with the VNT. Plus they're all smaller and lighter than a V8 or TDi, but you can still buy parts from LR suppliers (and prices are still coming down).

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Could do worse than look at Freelander engines; the 1.8 petrol is brilliantly perky (lotus elise!) and, when assembled correctly, reliable. The L-series diesel is uncomplicated and has a great rep, and the TD4 is brilliant too, very flexible & torquey with the VNT. Plus they're all smaller and lighter than a V8 or TDi, but you can still buy parts from LR suppliers (and prices are still coming down).

lighter than a rv8? I was under the impression that it was a very light engine being all ali.

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lighter than a rv8? I was under the impression that it was a very light engine being all ali.

1.8 and TD4 are ali and only 4 pots, dunno about the L series but I'd be surprised if it wasn't lighter too. I'm a lanky weakling and I can move a 1.8 around the workshop easily, not so much a V8.

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  • 4 months later...

I love this idea, although my take on it would be slightly different, I think an 80" S1 inspired farm 'mule' or lightweight ute would be a great tool, right back to LR roots and as the price of S1's is now getting out of reach what a great way of achieving it.

Crunch comes down to that lightweight engine and box combo, I too love the VW 1.9 but don't know if its fitted 'in line' in anything? I confess to never having been under the wife's Golf 3 to see how the sump and transmission are handled in the transverse configuration (never had a problem in 13yrs!).

Keeping it simple and achievable has to be a prime consideration.

Years ago I looked under a Lada Niva and was struck at how neat that little transfer box was; I know now it has a reputation for vibration, but that seems to be fixable, and it might open up other small engine and box combos? Any one used the Niva transfer box for anything else?

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How about fitting a transverse engine and gearbox longitudinaly then using the drive shaft outputs to go to the axles. You lose the transfer box and middle diff lock but if you get the axle gearing right you don't need a low box. Put diff locks front and rear and that sorts the lack of middle lock.

Mike

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Can't quite visualise how the (very?) short front prop could be fitted in, wouldn't you end up sitting next to the engine? during the day I wondered about transverse as well, but I was thinking FL front end into small neat transfer box, taking away the full time 4WD and maybe giving scope for a pto? With much reduced weight and no viscous failure the IRD might last quite well?

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There was a farm utility vehicle back in the 80's that was forward control with a mini engine and box longitudinally mounted that ran to chassis mounted diffs and independent suspension I always thought there was mileage in this set up. Granted the engine would need to be a good way back but modern transverse engines have the diff offset to one side generally the gearbox side so that should be enough to make the prop length viable.

Mike

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