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Which Engine next 2.25p, 200TDi.....300TDi?......1 litre turbo?....Ele


snailracer

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Reading a few of the engine threads (and having put a 200 TDi in my 109) I started thinking about what the future holds for engine swaps.

I fitted the 200 because my petrol engine died and it made sense at the time to fit something newer and more economical. I'm sure at some point in the future I will want to swap again. Part of me wants to put the 109 back to original condition but part of me is intrigued by the possibilities available to keep a 1970's vehicle on the road well into the flying cars future.

So what would anyone go for?

is there a Land rover engine in the near future that will be cheap and easy to swap in?

Is there an engine in something else that is similar (other 4x4s etc)?

Can an old 2.25 have clever turbo's and energy recovery fitted to it?

Shall I just remove the engine and floors and fred flintstone it?

...... :D

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I would have thought that for the number of 109's and 88's there are out there, there ought to be enough rusty disco 200/300 tdi engines to last forever, and they suit well.

Newer twin cam/electronic this and that engines seem a little weird in a series, but that's just my personal point of view. When I did my V8 conversion I couldn't even bring myself to put the stone age injection system on and resorted to messing with carbs!

Turbo 2.25? I'm almost tempted to take up the challenge, because that's what it would be...

I reckon you could do electric rather well in any square shaped land rover, but that's getting a bit space aged, isn't it..

Or how about fitting pedals, Bugsy Malone style?

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Errr. Big, free-spinning, waterproof electric motor, with a 400 mile range and a 15 minute recharge time gets my vote. Hooked straight up to the transfer box and hurrah!

G.

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Just remember the Defender is still a VERY basic vehicle outside of its engine controls,so it would be very easy to get a Puma engine to work in a Series vehicle.If you were daft enough to want to that is,there are many,far better engines you could use,the TD5 being the most obvious and equally easy to start with.

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If you think electronics are unreliable, just look at the millions and millions of computers that are on 24/7 running the internet, and the mobile phone in your hand (nasty environment too huh?).

Honestly, time to get real and get used to doing electronics, if you don't know how, google it and copy someone else who has done it!

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The issue is often the immobiliser, sadly. VW/Audi engines are a great example: you need the ECU, dash, and immobiliser module or it will start, then immediately stop! I'd like to know what the later Land Rover engines are like in this regard, actually.

The electronics are no bad thing, until you come up against those "black box" functions that are designed to be difficult to get around. Or for the hobbyist, at least.

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Electronics could be a good thing but there are so many conflicting pressures on manufacturers now that they really don't make engine transfers realistic in many cases. I suppose it's theoretically possible to build a new computer that the electronics run through - that's actually what the manufacturers do in the first place. We use little single board computers at work for a variety of tasks and they'd easily be up to it. However, I wonder what the motivation would be for the people with the understanding to actually produce them, as the market is really tiny?

It's possible that the electronic revolution will settle down and stabilise a bit. If it does, there could be off-the-shelf electronic components that you choose and marry up to make the engine you want and you really should end up with something seriously reliable and efficient. As it stands, though, you may find the motor you want is connected to the gearbox, brakes, doors, whatever. My no-longer-young work car is a XXXXXXXXXX 4WD and even the factory service agents can't make it go without the transponder in the key! It's not cheap and they, apparently, made ten of them, a few of which may still be stored somewhere in Japan in case I lose the one and only key I have...

I often think about what engine I'd swap in (one of my Land Rovers actually has a six cylinder Holden in it) but much of the Land Rover charm for me is with the older, more basic type of engine and I'm not keen to lose that. Even a TD5 stretches it for me!

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The issue is often the immobiliser, sadly. VW/Audi engines are a great example: you need the ECU, dash, and immobiliser module or it will start, then immediately stop! I'd like to know what the later Land Rover engines are like in this regard, actually.

The electronics are no bad thing, until you come up against those "black box" functions that are designed to be difficult to get around. Or for the hobbyist, at least.

Not a problem with a TD5 or Puma from a LR,if its secondhand you just need the Lucas 10AS alarm ecu from down behind the dash.(Green box.) Plus the wiring in between.All TD5 and Defender Puma's have them.

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Ah, that's interesting about the alarm box - thank you.

The electronic stuff gets a bad rep because "you have to plug a laptop in to work out what's wrong with it". My argument is "what's wrong with that?". I find myself getting frustrated with the older stuff because I can't just read off a diag code to get me heading in the right direction ;)

I work on steam engine restoration projects, and of course, as they're all old boys I work with, this very conversation comes up: "oh, I don't know why we need all the electronic stuff, life was so much simpler....". Until someone pointed out that it was actually rather nice to be able to get in a car and not wonder if it's going to start every time. I chuckled :)

I have to agree, as a personal preference, mechanical simplicity just suits the land rover, though!

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What I'd love most is the Ricardo electric system with drum motors on each wheel - no diffs or transmission, no engine, no fuel tanks, independent drive on each wheel to match torque and speed to the conditions at each corner. Next best would be to transfer the drive system from a scrapped Tesla - have you seen their figures? Amazing stuff. You'd have enough space to much increase battery size over the Tesla cars, recouping the range lost by the heavier and less aerodynamic LR chassis and body. You can fat charge their batteries in an hour, use a home charger to go from flat to full in 5hr and use an ordinary mains plug to recharge in 10hr. It won't be long before those times are halved or better. Electric will be great - no noise, no fumes, no mess, minimal servicing, can recharge parked on the driveway, no starting problems... Not much good on an expedition vehicle, though.

I'd be wary of fitting a TD5 or Tdci to a Series unless replacing the gearbox too - they manage with the Tdi and V8 if driven sympathetically, but those newer engines have quite a lot more torque.

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I think the biggest question in engine swaps is --- is it just the engine? Or are you looking at a different gearbox and/or transfer box setup too?

For me that makes the biggest decision.

An otherwise stock Series doesn't need loads of power, the rest of the vehicle just isn't up to it. So engine swaps should be fairly simple bolt in affairs.

This means mostly sticking with LR stuff. A V8 or a Tdi are both pretty easy bolt in options and both will offer more than enough power.

There really is little point in fitting a 200hp+ diesel motor, if all it will do is break gearboxes and melt diffs. Not too mention if you simply end up being too scared to drive it faster than 65mph due to handling or braking.

If you are going full out and upgrading lots of other bits, then yes, it makes sense to look further afield.

Surprised the Iveco 2.8 diesel isn't utilised more, as Santana used it in the PS10 mated to a Rover box and LT230. Good engines and an alternative to a Tdi or Td5.

That said, Td5's would seem a fairly obvious choice these days. The BMW diesels sort of appeal, but the gains they have are again all well beyond what most Series vehicles would need or be able to utilise.

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Isn't there a BMW diesel that does that? A M57 or something?

G.

I'm sure I mentioned a BMW engine earlier in the thread...

The M47 -a 2 litre turbo engine- as found in the Rover 75,MG ZT, Freelander along with BMW 320, 520, Z3 etc that in Rover tune kicked out 114 bhp and 195lb/ft or 134bhp and 207lb/ft at similar rpm to which the 200 Tdi gives its 111bhp and 195lb/ft with the added advantage of being a rather nice compact unit which could be made to fit a Series gearbox with a fairly simple adapter ring should you feel so inspired.

Wiring is available to make them run with 6 wires to connect to the vehicle.

The six cylinder M57 is an option, but would be better suited to being attatched to an R380 or ZF auto.

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Must admit, I have in the past done a "vapour build" on my ideal 88-inch SIII - involving the straight-six 3.5L Toyota 2GR-FSE (as used in the Lexus GS) and the matching A761E 6-speed autobox.

It'd be RWD-only: replace the front axle/diff with a length of thickwall tube fitted with flanges to take [empty] Defender/Disco swivels and disc-brakes up front, and a narrowed Defender/Discovery disc-braked axle at the rear, so I could keep the track the same as a standard "series". This would get me ABS and traction-control by selective application of the brakes on the spinning rear-wheel.

Fast, efficient, reliable, quiet [OK, everything a 'series' LR isn't meant to be!] - and it'd be a spectacular bugger to get through SVA!

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Pretty simple really.

As an ideal you'd want to make a bellhousing for a short LT77, or maybe an R380 with a short LT77 input shaft to get the length down, but otherwise -especially if you already have a PAS conversion- you could fit everything in with relative ease, and replace the entire vehicle wiring loom with the Td5 setup -it's all plug and play- with the added bonus of the later type light connections and more than four fuses.

It's a bit of work to get it all fitted up, but nothing you could call difficult.

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  • 2 weeks later...

We are getting a 200 Tdi in the Series Hybrid and will initially use the (rebuild) series gearbox + TB. Main reason is that the 2.5 N/A is getting very tired and I could do with a bit more power.. However, a good 2.5 N/A is actually a very nice engine and works well in a Series. We've been looking at several options, incl. the Mazda 3.5 Tdi :o , as we have 4 disc brakes, we have powersteering but in the end decide to go for the 200 Tdi.

Oh, and we have had a 2.25 diesel Turbo in her the 1st. 18 years. Massive US donor sourced radiator to keep things a bit cool and careful driving never gave us problems but it is tricky - they were not build for them... Sounded good though :)

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With a stage 2 map, 520nm torque out of a 2.2 puma has made me consider it for the series, but getting the MT85 and Lt230 to fit in an 88 would prove troublesome. The electronics is the "easy" part.

The downside is very disconnected driving experience IMHO, and the cost of a stage 2 map

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