R380 fault or incorrect oil

[Souster]

Hi there,

Yes i know there is loads of info on this and

Ive done a lot of research tonight into how the R380 gearbox works (as im clueless), and gained a little amount of info, as well as researching the the correct oil.

I have a 1995 300tdi defender with 130k. Currently running with new ATF in the geabox, like it has done all its life i guess. Fresh ATF improved the changes significantly when its warm, to near perfect.

However, when the engine/gearbox is cold, it makes second gear almost impossible to get in unless it is forced. Yet no issues with the other gears.

If the syncromesh was worn 1st to 2nd- wouldnt this happen when the gearbox was warm too?

Which therefor leads me to question the oil. As i understand MTF94 is now recommended for the R380, which i was advised to use some years ago on here. Is this going to make the changing worse or better? As i beleive its thicker than ATF.

Thanks for reading and any help will be greatly appreciated!

[Boydie]

not necessarily, once the box warms up things will expand and work differently from being cold - for example my reversing light switch will not operate when cold but give the box a few kilometres and it works perfectly. Try the MTF94 oil, yes its thicker than ATF but not so much so that thr oil pump will not cope.

[oneandtwo]

Years ago I ran ATF in my 300tdi 90, with 50k on it with fresh ATF it improved the box and was less notchy but was still not great, especially one-two from cold.

Replacing the ATF with MTF was like a new gearbox had been fitted, no notches or difficult shifts. For £20 of oil it is well worth it.

[FridgeFreezer]

R380's seem to differ wildly, they all seem to react to a change of oil, and it seems some "like" ATF and some "like" MTF, some "like" expensive synthetic and some "like" cheaper standard stuff.

I'd hazard a theory that it depends what the box has run on for most of its life as that will affect the wear on various components and hence how they then react when you change the oil.

Officially the right answer is MTF94 as that's what LR specify, and manufacturers don't switch oils for frivolous reasons. However, once it's 50,000 miles down the road it seems pot luck as to whether a change will help or hinder.

[Souster]

Thanks a lot fellas. I think its a very awkward gearbox in terms of what oil they like after so many years.

MTF94 seems a lot more pricey than it was a few years ago. Didnt fancy risking around £40 for it to be worse.

As post 2/3 i realise the box warms and alters, But just cant work out why when the gearbox is warm, it changes lovely - which means the oil is thinner. Yet MTF is supposed to be thicker, therefor making the problem worse when cold?

I do realise that the syncros rely on friction and grip to work, and that the first to second syncro works the hardest... So maybe MTF is better at providing this. But again, why will it not even go into second gear when its cold without being forced?

[Rangy35]

To answer your question about the second gear in short, it is most probably because the synchro is worn/burnt and the second gear friction surface where the synchro is suppose to work on. Second gear is the toughest gear to tame in the gearbox.

O and the fact that the gearbox has run on the wrong oil its entire life was a good contributor to your concern.

I can almost guarantee you the selector also has worn just adding to your concern.

[Souster]

To answer your question about the second gear in short, it is most probably because the synchro is worn/burnt and the second gear friction surface where the synchro is suppose to work on. Second gear is the toughest gear to tame in the gearbox.

O and the fact that the gearbox has run on the wrong oil its entire life was a good contributor to your concern.

I can almost guarantee you the selector also has worn just adding to your concern.

Thanks for the reply. It doesn't worry me too much, because it changes lovely when its warm. Should i leave it then of change to MTF?

[FridgeFreezer]

I've asked my oil-scientist mate about the R380 ATF/MTF phenomena (doo dooo de doo doo), the boys in the lab are looking into it:

Interesting. I have asked our MTF expert. He's on holiday at the moment, but he'll look at it.

ATF and MTF tend to be formulated with different types of chemistry. The MTF uses more aggressive chemistry that helps protect loaded gears. The ATF tends to be kinder to copper and brass components, and does a better job of keeping things clean. The friction (used for synchro performance) will be designed for different things, though could end up fairly close.
However, it depends which ATF and MTF you’re comparing. In this case the performance comes quite close, even though the chemistry is different, and application is insensitive enough to accommodate either. But interesting it has discernable effects.

What kinds of reaction do you get? There are a few things I could imagine;
- Different shift-feel
- Suddenly very mucky oil (might be alarming, but could likely be the ATF cleaning up muck left by the MTF)
- Broken bits - either brass synchros go much quicker (probably 1st or 2nd gear), or gears fail under shock loading

Any other reactions?

[Souster]

I've asked my oil-scientist mate about the R380 ATF/MTF phenomena (doo dooo de doo doo), the boys in the lab are looking into it:

Thanks fridgefreezer, thats intresting. I havent yet tried MTF (its costly stuff). The only thing i do know is that changing the ATF that was originally in when i purchased the vehicle for new ATF dex 2, the shifts are better warm. But im sure they are worse cold. Well 2nd gear atleast!

[FridgeFreezer]

MTF94, not that expensive really:

http://www.smithandallan.com/prodpage.aspx?id=3671

[Souster]

MTF94, not that expensive really:

http://www.smithandallan.com/prodpage.aspx?id=3671

I was wary of using other brands other than genuine land rover, as i realise carlube and rock oil also do there own MTF 94.

Are the other brands up to the job then? Because the R380 are very temperamental with oils, so i was going to go for genuine LR.

[tacr2man]

What a lot of poor changing in the r 380 is down to is nothing inside the box . The turret, and ball joint pins , are prone to wear, and makes the setting of the bias spring very difficult and variable, this leads to selection problems . i recently got fed up with the slow due to balking change on my 380 , replaced the turret, ball selector , and spring. reset the bias spring , now it shifts with a very light flick of the wrist , right thru the range . HTSH .

AAMOI I run redline synthetic in my 380 .

[FridgeFreezer]

Are the other brands up to the job then? Because the R380 are very temperamental with oils, so i was going to go for genuine LR.

LR don't manufacture oil, so who knows where genuine stuff comes from? They originally specced Texaco if memory serves. Smith & Allen are Shell agents, presumably not overly disposed to selling rubbish. A lot of their stuff is Shell oil in a blue bottle if you read the descriptions.