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** MegaSquirting a V8 - "Basics of How to" ... The A-Z Saga


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Its not tuning via LCDash thats the issue .............. its just by looking at the parameters all the time, I'll be plugging in the laptop and fiddlin ........... you know ........... a tad richer here............... a tad leaner here.................. alter the pcm freq for the ISV ................. blah , blah , etc. etc...................... I just HAS to be done :lol:

:)

Ian

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Another question:

How did you make the ignition leads/wires?

Have been asking at the MS-Forum. Seems like MSD-wires are preferable. But not sure about the connector at the Ford-EDIS-coil pack. These look unique. Can they be had new ? Or no other way than taking scrap wires apart ??

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Another question:

How did you make the ignition leads/wires?

Have been asking at the MS-Forum. Seems like MSD-wires are preferable. But not sure about the connector at the Ford-EDIS-coil pack. These look unique. Can they be had new ? Or no other way than taking scrap wires apart ??

The spark plug leads are magnecor - specially made to length and order and a Fortune.

Another option is to go to a scrappy, get GENUINE (all pattaern ones are rubbish) and then take apart.

I did this when I made up my own 1st set of cheap leads, basically the trick is to get a small spade screwdriver, spary WD40 on the lead cap and then prise the boot from the lead and get WD40 in, then with the screwdriver prise the boot off the lead, then prise away the brass lead crimp. I found that most recrimp onto a new lead fine, some do shere so when you go to the scrappy if is a V8 get 10 or 12 leads then you'll be fine

The EDIS8 pins are a nightmare BBC and I have found a supplier (non Uk and not cheap) but in fairness just get the EDIS8 and the plug, with a length of wire cut into the loom and solder and splice in

HTH

Nige

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How did you make the ignition leads/wires?

Mine are made from shockingly old Lucas leads and Ford ones taken apart and they have been great :rolleyes: I was going to buy magnecors but they've been so good I can't be bothered now.

Halfords sell adapters (made by Hotwires IIRC) to connect normal leads to Ford coil packs, I believe Rog is running these and has done deep wading with great success.

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Hi,

so both of you kept both-end´s connectors from an original-Ford-lead ?

? Are there problems with the diameter of the wire. Magnecors might be thicker than OEM-Lucas/Ford.

Wire:

These are commonly recommended in the US: http://www.msdignition.com/wire_1.htm

And if you look here: http://www.shopatron.com/product/product_id=MSD34019/424.0

that´s 42$ for 25feet.

or 15$ for 6feet = http://www.shopatron.com/product/product_id=MSD34039/424.0

Connectors:

http://www.shopatron.com/product/product_id=MSD8854/424.0 for the plug end.

Connector at coil end:

????

maybe that= http://www.msdignition.com/wire_sets.htm is a place to order pre-assembled wires

I have yet not fully understood which Ford-car´s wires I needed and how to interpret the table´s data

this is nice, too: http://www.shopatron.com/product/product_id=MSD3413/424.0

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[Not exactly

The original leads I made up were VWP cheap leads, kept the spark plug end chopped off to suit to length and then crimped on the 2Removed n saved" old Ford Coil Pack ends, they worked fine. When I was hunting the misfire :9 I wondered if this was the cheap leads, so spent a fortune on made to measure Magnecor ones - these are supplied with the spark plug and coil pack ends fitted, magnecgor have the ability to source genuine Ford Gen ! Coil Pack plug ends.

Frankl;y the magnecor are very expensive, but beautifully made, didn't cure the misfire, and I would have priob stuck with the home made ones if I had known as they worked fine :)

Nige

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Mine are made from shockingly old Lucas leads and Ford ones taken apart and they have been great :rolleyes: I was going to buy magnecors but they've been so good I can't be bothered now.

Halfords sell adapters (made by Hotwires IIRC) to connect normal leads to Ford coil packs, I believe Rog is running these and has done deep wading with great success.

Yep, still going strong.

IMHO, the Hotwires 8mm leads from Halfrauds are good quality with many lengths available, allowing neat installation, the connectors are fine also, worth a punt.

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Ok, moving on

DigiDash LCD Display

Wanted this "Fixed" somewhere in place in the 90 ...for next weekend ....so I can see 'whats what'.....

So, Plan A - Cheap n Quick ....and er ...........well cheap and quick really :lol:

Held the digidash 'around the 90' trying to find a suitable place,

had 2x thoughts both needed a finished boxey thing to give me the final answer.

Around 155x85x30 ish would be nice, with a clear front as to see the digidash,

and needs to be covered to protect it and keep the touch screen from being accidently activated,

also need the front screen easily removeable so as to be able to acess the touch screen if needed....

Nothing "Off the Shelf" dispite much searching :(

so bought cheap Hard Disk Enclosure from E-Bay for a few quid,

Dimensions mean its too big by far..... but have some nice knurled knobs (ooer)

which means the back and front come away and then the sides x4 for "Tweaking"

So, buy enclosure, and then take apart,

removing the elctrical gubbins inside, .....reduce to its component bits and bobs :)

erm ..........Bout 1 mins :)

post-22-1188758167_thumb.jpg post-22-1188758193_thumb.jpg post-22-1188758219_thumb.jpg

The gently shove 'DigiDash' display which i have added some spacers to clear all the gubbins when mounted shove in the box for a lookie see :

post-22-1188758272_thumb.jpg

Hmmm tad big side..............

Few chops cuts snips and reducers.......... plus a load of 2 pack aralidite ........AND JB weld..................

(nothing flash just run out of araldite :lol:)

some sticky tape to make for a neat finish, glue clamp.... and wait a short while :unsure:

post-22-1188758379_thumb.jpg post-22-1188758417_thumb.jpg

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Spray black and reassemble, then mounted via a bit of "Jury Rigging" to the base of the ashtray on the top of the Dash

And there it is,

bolted into place, with a 3x suckers on the back to the screen, seems solid enough for a trial run

post-22-1188758858_thumb.jpg

If this works then I will make a better one, ..........but so far so good.

I do have a neater 'plan b' in progress

which should be a tad neater ....and a bit more waterproof, but will need much more work

This will do quickly for now and gets me going for the 9th

Nige :rolleyes:

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A chance to try out your new TIG skills? :)

Erm :rolleyes:

No

Its needs to be waterproof, so no holes :hysterical:

However, a Mate is currently on a 3 weeks holiday in the USA.

Spoke to him on the phone.

He said, "It just had to be you Nige" :lol:

I'm sitting by the swimming pool in the hotel, just had lunch, a beer in my hand, and a FedEx man in full uniform turns up

Talks to a number of people, they then point towards my direction, he wonders over and says

"Mr Tinsley"

"Er..yeah"

Package for you to sign for"

"Eh ?......"

"Yes Sir......... its for you"

He said he signed, opened it, looked at it, then phoned me and said

Oi Barker, ......this FedEx delivery ......just has to be for F you - Yes ??

er.......Yep :lol:

He just laughed, his SWMBO was propbably not quite so impressed ....but used to it :)

I didn't feel to guilty ...............

He then went on to say that they have had to go out a buy another suitcase, he has bought so much over there.

His SWMBO did however he said blow a fuse when he spent a day at a USA Scrappy :lol:

She said she has now worked out why he was "Ok" to go on Hols to USA :) .....

Nige

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Hi,

well - I´ll now try to "proudly present" the positioning of VR-sensor, coil packs etc. I chose to take.

At the moment all is just in the assembly phase. We´ll have to wait several more weeks until I may try to start it.

JFYI: (hope i manage to post the pics)

1) engine complete

2) EDIS-Coil packs

3) the capacitors we talked about. These are for the 3.9Efi. The Haynes Manual says for a carb-Range 15-25microfarad capacity. That were close to the 20microfarad that are asked for.

4) The IAT sensor

5) the Knock sensor. Easy going for me - I have an eary interim block with a boss cast to it´s side = sensor position for the P38

6) the VR sensor. Snugly put behind/beneath the PAS pump. With the engine out easy to access. I´ll check the 10deg-timing with it turning on the starter. The holes for the sensor bracket (made out of aluminium in a vice with a hammer) are large enough to allow for adjustment. Unfortunately the plug for the VR sensor is now in the way for the supporting strut of the alternator. Solved this problem with a sheet of v2a-steel to slightly move the strut out of the way.

7) same as 6)

post-1205-1189338293_thumb.jpg

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post-1205-1189338371_thumb.jpg

post-1205-1189338379_thumb.jpg

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ohh, at pic 1) at the back you can see one of my multi-plugs. I had to take two. One with 14 and another with 24pins. The latter was used for sensor lines mainly.

I have a scheme made with Excel that shows, which wire goes to which pin of my plug and which colour I chose.

Again - just FYI.

I hope this software accepts .png´s otherwise you have to follow the link and klick the small word ("Anhang") in the 1. and 2.post:

http://www.viermalvier.de/forum_php/showfl...ge=3#Post458241

458241-MS2-Kabelschema1.png

458242-MS2-Kabelschema2.png

(sorry for the mix of german-english in the pics. I can send an Excel-file for you to modify or do whatever you´d like, even if only to delete it ;) ).

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Since this is turning into a bit of an MS-tech thread, here are a couple of maps for people:

First off is a standard (B&G standard code, 8x8 tables, fuel only) settings file from my RR 3.5 V8 after a bit of datalogging & tuning, the idle isn't perfect but the rest of it is close and I have been running these settings (albeit with a less well tuned map) for years now:

JU_RR_35_200709062328a.msq

I would use this as a base settings for any stock RV8, just up the fuelling (REQ_FUEL in constants) by a certain % for larger engines.

Second is an MS'n'S-E setup - the engine is 4.6 V8 with "stump puller" cam, running version 029V of the MS'n'S-E code, EDIS-8 ignition, again this has been datalogged & tuned up and is actually pretty good, certainly I don't feel the need to tweak it any further right now (although if Bill & Dave turn up next weekend it may get fiddled with):

JU_109_46_200708110959a.msq

Edited to add:

Here is the .s19 file for the above, it's MS'n'S-E 029V with the correct Rover V8 temperature sender data in it.

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Fridgefreezer: I took a look at your 4.6 map, interesting stuff! a few (ok a lot) of questions if i may.. :)

PWM Current limit = 75% (I have mine at 100%) are you using low impedance injectors? (if so, any advantage of running these?)

Injector Staging = Simultaneous (mine is alternating) but i read somewhere alternating gives more constant / smoother fuel rail pressure on the RV8? :unsure:

Your VE and Spark advance maps show go upto 150KPa, are you running boost? :o:ph34r:

Acceleration Enrichment: Am reassured to see big values in yours too.. :lol: i kept seeing other engines running 1 or 2ms max. mine just wheezed at those so kept bumping it up. How does it respond if at idle when warmed up if you stab the throttle? Are you running the stock fuel pressure regulator? I suspect mine (standard 3.9) is too lazy in closing up and raising the fuel pressure too late. (am tempted to re-tune without the vacuum line to the FPR connected)

This MS thing is great stuff but it don't 'alf make me head hurt :lol:

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Fridgefreezer: I took a look at your 4.6 map, interesting stuff! a few (ok a lot) of questions if i may.. :)

TBH most of the settings are as done by Ian, I just datalogged & fine-tuned it so may not be able to answer questions :rolleyes:

PWM Current limit = 75% (I have mine at 100%) are you using low impedance injectors? (if so, any advantage of running these?)

No, running 3.9 (ERR722) high-impedance ones, hadn't noticed any PWM settings but will have to have a look now :unsure:

Injector Staging = Simultaneous (mine is alternating) but i read somewhere alternating gives more constant / smoother fuel rail pressure on the RV8?

Yes, alternating does help that, I may well change it although I've not noticed any problem with it running simultaneous.

Your VE and Spark advance maps show go upto 150KPa, are you running boost? :o:ph34r:

No I'm not, again it's what came from Ian and has just been tweaked - if I had the inclination I'd re-scale my maps to 100Kpa and probably a top end of 6k rpm, but since it's running OK right now I'm not gonna fiddle till after the next few events :P

Acceleration Enrichment: Am reassured to see big values in yours too.. :lol: i kept seeing other engines running 1 or 2ms max. mine just wheezed at those so kept bumping it up. How does it respond if at idle when warmed up if you stab the throttle?

I do have a slight stumble if I rev it a little then blip it (EG rev to 2k then blip to 3k it will hesitate) but it's not a major problem and I suspect someone who knows what they're doing may be able to cure it.

Are you running the stock fuel pressure regulator? I suspect mine (standard 3.9) is too lazy in closing up and raising the fuel pressure too late. (am tempted to re-tune without the vacuum line to the FPR connected)

Yes my FPR is stock. Connected or not it's the same game, you will be tuning to the response of the FPR so it shouldn't make a difference overall.

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Oh poo ..... it looks like I accidentally sent fridge a file that I had played with (usually to see what settings interact with each other) as there is no way any of my normal MSQ's use anything over 100Kpa ................ also the PWM should be 100% ............... apart from that the rest does look like me! However, the fuel & ign maps generally look OK.

I just tried to upload my current MSQ for the 3.9, but the forum software has just told me to p!ss off .......... :angry:

So, I have emailed it to Fridge and asked him to host the file and then post the link ............. thanks JU ;)

:)

Ian

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No sooner said than done:

Ian's 3.9 MSQ

Oh and I've just been fiddling with my settings - set PWM% to 100, seemed to make no difference, changed to alternating injection also made no difference :rolleyes: tried the EDIS on multi-spark but then realised my timing light was miles away :unsure: so turned it off again :lol: and changed the O2 correction to wait 200ms as it was hunting a little if you held it at a steady RPM.

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Since I just spent a while writing this out for someone I thought I'd share it - basically "what voltages should I see where":

Voltages on each ECU pin will be:

1 - Ground

2 - Ground

3 - No circuit (spare output pin)

4 - No circuit (spare output pin)

5 - No circuit (spare output pin)

6 - No circuit (spare output pin)

7 - Ground

8 - Ground

9 - Ground

10 - Ground

11 - Ground

12 - Ground

13 - Ground

14 - Ground

15 - Ground

16 - Ground

17 - Ground

18 - Ground

19 - Ground

20 - +5v with temperature sensor disconnected, 0-5v with sensor connected

21 - +5v with temperature sensor disconnected, 0-5v with sensor connected

22 - Probably 0v with TPS disconnected, TPS voltage when connected. Usually ~0.3v at closed throttle but not important.

23 - 0v with O2 sensor disconnected or engine off, between 0v and 1v with engine running & sensor connected

24 - 0v with EDIS disconnected, pulsed 12v with EDIS connected & engine turning. Would probably show as ~6V AC on multimeter.

25 - No connection

26 - +5v output to TPS

27 - No connection

28 - +12v ignition switched live into ECU

29 - No connection

30 - No connection required (fast idle wire, not needed)

31 - No connection

32,3,4,5 - 0v with injectors disconnected, +12v with power to the injectors but engine off, pulsed 12v & ground with engine running (ECU grounds injectors to fire)

36 - +5v with engine stopped, pulsed +5v engine running

37 - +12v with ignition on but fuel pump relay off, 0v (ground) when ECU enables fuel pump.

EDIS Pins:

1 - Pulsed +12v when EDIS can see the trigger wheel moving

2 - Not used

3 - Pulsed +5v from ECU with engine running

4 - -ve signal from VR sensor

5 - +ve signal from VR sensor

6 - +12v ignition switched live

7 - Ground connection for VR sensor cable shield

8 - +12v when coil pack powered, pulsed ground/12v when firing coil

9 - +12v when coil pack powered, pulsed ground/12v when firing coil

10 - Ground

11 - +12v when coil pack powered, pulsed ground/12v when firing coil

12 - +12v when coil pack powered, pulsed ground/12v when firing coil

Coil packs:

1 - +12v when coil pack powered, pulsed ground/12v when firing coil

2 - Switched +12v from the fuel pump relay

3 - +12v when coil pack powered, pulsed ground/12v when firing coil

VR Sensor:

sum1.jpg

This would be measured as an AC voltage, quite small when cranking but potentially 100V+ when running.

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What a cracking thread this is! B)

100volt :blink: blimey! better make sure my VR connector's sealed then, thinking of packing it with dielectric grease.. is this a good idea?

Before MS was running, I put a voltmeter across the VR output, cranking gave about 1 volt AC.

Switched the meter to frequency and divided the reading by 36ish and that's your cranking RPM.. quite a reassuring test to do :)

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no need to worry about that voltage. The current (ampere) ist way too low to cause harm. We´ve touched 1000V in school, that were produced by rubbing a ballon or whatever it was over something.

BTW: vaseline is ok in contacts ? I was looking for something to fill the connectors (like oil pressure switch etc) before pushing them on, this to prevent water coming in. Was slightly concerned in cases where 2 connectors are close together and I was unsure whether the grease I had in mind would be an islotator and not kind of conductor.

What a cracking thread this is! B)

100volt :blink: blimey! better make sure my VR connector's sealed then, thinking of packing it with dielectric grease.. is this a good idea?

Before MS was running, I put a voltmeter across the VR output, cranking gave about 1 volt AC.

Switched the meter to frequency and divided the reading by 36ish and that's your cranking RPM.. quite a reassuring test to do :)

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landybehr - what you touched was static electricity, I forget the actual numbers but below 1000v you can't even feel it. The same is not true for even very low current electricity, it only needs 60mA to do damage.

Vaseline is what's used in telecomms "bean" connectors and they're used to connect up to 120v in damp atmospheres with pretty good reliability.

C237565-63.jpg

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