Jump to content

** MegaSquirting a V8 - "Basics of How to" ... The A-Z Saga


Recommended Posts

  • 3 weeks later...
  • 2 weeks later...
Hi nigel read this lot still seems a bit daunting! :blink:

Hello Mr Beagley and welcome !

Think of this like trying to eat an elephant :)

Don't ask it to sit on your dinner plate ................

and then wonder as to how big a job it will be to eat it all,................. :blink:

....... just chew off and swallow one bit at a time :lol:............

Nige

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Rover sensor numbers are:

-40 C 26371 ohms

30 C 1405 ohms

99 C189 ohms

So yes, you're close enough there. The full thermfactor.ini file is here for use in Easytherm.

GM Temperature Sensor Resistance

-40 C 100,700 ohms

21 C 3,400 ohms

38 C 1,800 ohms

99 C 185 ohms

So you're probably also right there.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

A small but valuable update for V8 Squirters maybe.....

The MAXIUMUM advance you can run on a V8 is dependant on the cubic capacity, ......oddly the larger V8s rwequire the Maxium advance to be lower than the smaller ones, If you are squirting your V8 be carefull that you do not exceed the tolerance the engines can take - if you shove in too much advance you will not only have reduced power and bad pinking (which on a LR you may not hear :lol:, but you'll have 'detonation' which can melt holes in your pistions very very quickly. :(

For those who wish to know the recomended Max Advances (and this is static plus additional) ie 'total mechanical advances' (no Vacunm) are :

Rover V8s

3.5s - Max of 36 degrees at around 3100-3200 .........(if you have a 'sleeved 3.5' with reduced CC (ie 3400) then 38 Degrees at 3200)

3.9s Maximum of 34 degrees 3750-3850

4.2s to 4.5s max 31 degrees @ 3900-4000

4.6s and bigger Max 28 @ 3750-4000

For heads and decks that have been skimmed then you'll need to reduce the advance a tad as the compression will increase alonmg with the risks of detonation, similarly std pistions are quoted in the majority of engines in the list above- for high compression pistons treat the maximum advance similar to the heads / blocks being skimmed and reduce Max advnce number

For compo head gaskets this offsets a bit the 'skimming effect' of upping the compression as the 'compo' gasket is significantly thicker than the tin ones (and superior too to the tin :) ) ...and having big valve ported heads has no effect on what is the squish area for ignition - its the head + deck chamber size + Piston head compressions and combustion chamber dimensions, that affect max advance - all V8s have wedge design heads so there is little variance other than the above.

HTH

Nige

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just added Megasquirt to my humble V8, and it's thanks to you lads for excellent information and advice.

Found it very daunting at first but like Nige said earlier, the amount of new information that suddenly starts to make sense and relates to each other is fantastic, and I find myself looking for things on the laptop screen like an expert who by the way has only fitted it 10 days ago, and has certainly not completed fine tuning it yet.

Deepest thanks to a couple of you guys, who know who they are, for some absolutely sound advice and for answering yet more stupid questions at all times of day.

Yep definitly the best place on the net for questions, answers and solutions, and all involved should feel proud of yourselves, perhaps one day I may answer one, (God help you).

Well done, and thanks again

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi all,

We're putting MS fuel only on the motor this weekend and tried to load FF's Project on earlier but he was running the old firmware.

Has anyone got a good Project for Ms1-Extra running fuel only for a 4.6 V8 with a high torque cam? The MS is running 029y4.

Cheers!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Changes since 029v (from the .asm file):

029w Added an extra pulh for rotary trailing to SPARKTIME... stops stack overflow

029x portc bit7 is set if config_error

029x1 Gobble data if write to invalid page. Should reduce chance of corruption if W command executed without first setting page.

029x2 Make sure we read SCDR

029y1 MegaMeet special. Add spark hardware latency

029y2 Include 029x mods in 029y code

029y3 2nd trigger Rising and Falling option for LS1

029y4 Re-write of 3bar and 4bar map code so that same kPa gives same PW regardless of sensor type.

Not that it means much to me :lol:

I'm pretty sure the MSQ is the same between 029v and 029y4 so shouldn't be an issue.

jjstevo - I run the same setup (but with spark) if you want to give the fuel map a try PM me your email address.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

NOTICE : This thread is still open, please do still contribute

HOWEVER : If you want to discuss 'higher end' issues re MS :

Especially around 'Tuning' therory and Practical

Getting the most out your MS once running

High end discussions debates around issues thoughts queries

And High end Questions and Queries

Then go to the 'MS High end debate thread' here :

Absolutely do not go here until you have a basic understanding of MS ....else it might put you off :lol:

which is NOT the idea

For basic info post up here,

For queries on installation advice post up here,

For questions on anything in this thread - post up here

For high end higher tech questions thoughts debates click on the linky above :)

Hope this helps

Nige

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...

I have had a number of PMs now re the size of Datalogs within MLV, and what can you do size wise ?

Most of the previous ones I have done are about and around 20-30mins,

today as I had to play collect and deliver in the 90, I set out and datalogged for the day.

Some 3 HOURS + of logging later gave me a huge file - just over 10MB :lol:

Two things here,

the 1st is it does give a huge amount of data,

the 2nd is that for such huge files you need to switch on a function within MLV to enable it to cope with the very large .xls file.

Open up MLV, then click on the "Options" Tab at the top, then click (So as to select) 'Enable Large Memory'

This will then allow MLV to do its stuff.

Todays log

post-22-1209330533_thumb.jpg

Near 80,000 lines of code recorded 111 out of 144 cells

Re set and then smoothed again as per earlier posts to get rid of the odd cells here and there, amazingly many cells are within 1 or 2 points of the original pre 80,000 log VE, others that I was wondfering about have been changed specifically mid range and now post the tweaks it has improved the mid range.

Nige

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

One of the few remaining issues for me was 'Starting'

Having read read read read and read some more of the MS Manuals

it seems that the ECU is split between say 75% of it power for starting and only

25% for the running after its warmed up.

Yep, you read it right,

the ECU has a load of stuff to GET the engine running,

once its there only a very small part of the ecu does the rest ie keep it running.

Therefore up to now (or a short while ago) I had spent most,

sorry all of my time on tuning just 25% of the ECU, the starting was erm.....

"Catch it and pray" .........and once warmed everything was fine :)

I spent a large amount of time (as you should) reading Ian G's (BBCs) post within here on the PWM settings and decided that 'creeping up' on the 90,

and then getting it to start 'cleanly' should be less of a ritual, .........and more of a 'turn the key' and walk away....... till its warmed up. :blink:

What didn't help was I had made a nice pretty 'blanking plate' for the plenum to do away with the unit that houses the stepper motor,

so what follows now is a 'how to guide'.......... to be read in conjunction with Ians numbers and superb data.

1st for me was to remove the plemum, and remove the plate on the rear

(anyone want to buy a HFH 3mm Ali blanking plate + few months old trimmed gasket :lol: ?)

and then remove the MAP take off which was JB welded into the plenum :( and then reset into the housing :)

after it was 1st cleaned up like the housing ready for the next genuine gasket :)

post-22-1210452103_thumb.jpg post-22-1210452121_thumb.jpg post-22-1210452148_thumb.jpg

1st off the PWM :

This was selected from a scrappy (£160 new :blink: for £5)

this is a bosch unit froma Volvo 760 petrol

(........ 'aint having nuffin diesel on my 90 ...........thankyou very much :lol:)

post-22-1210451754_thumb.jpg

The part number for this is BOSCH 0 280 140 516 12v

Whilst at the scrappy I grabbed a load of hoses (should have not wasted my time :( as I found later)

..... so I had a range of shapes and styles to hopefully help fit.

The PWM was then this morning offerred up to the assembly, it was a 'tight area' :blink: at the back,

but after much Oooooing and Aaaaaing and Fffffing I decided on 2 x hoses.... the 760 volvo one

(cut off just before the bend at the end in the photo, and a 3.5 flapper S bend type hose that goes between the Bi Metal EAV and the plenum :)

The assembly looked like this pre trimming :

post-22-1210451998_thumb.jpg

Removing the plemum (in my case to fit the original unit back on and the MAP take off back into it after a bit of cleaning moved me to here :

post-22-1210452364_thumb.jpg post-22-1210452177_thumb.jpg post-22-1210452192_thumb.jpg

Then after mucgh jiggling and assembly the unit was jubille clipped in place, a mount will be made but the V*lvo :lol: rubber mounting was trimmed back and used, and fits in really neatly :

post-22-1210452301_thumb.jpg post-22-1210452325_thumb.jpg

Settings wise I used Ians, .........and they worked really well,

Becuase of the "Silly" cam I have - I upped the 'tickover warm' to "900" and the 'cold tickover' whilst it warms up to '1750"

I can report these minor changes worked a dream :)

The wires are on the initial diagram -

I used Orange as the 12V feed to the unit,

and green and white to the ECU as a switched earth,

also on the suggestion of Ian (got to be right then :lol:)

I fitted a diode (1N004) to the assembly.

this (care of Jon White 'Crimpo master Guru') saw the 12V Orange have the diode band crimped into it

and the other (green and white) the other end crimped in with some 'heatshrink' added.... to keep it all apart)

I had also played (read richen up at lot the ASE After Start Enrichments) and the WUE *(Warm Up Enrichments) tables

The ASE should be done when the engine is off,

the WUE do it when you 1st start - but you only get 1 or 2 goes a day, it needs to

be cold, when its running up the % until the engine "Sounds better" then as it drops a 'next unit down' do it again,

I upped mine from prob around 110% to 150% + until it sounded right :

post-22-1210454042_thumb.jpg post-22-1210454057_thumb.jpg

All that them remained was to upload the setting to the ECU :

post-22-1210452674_thumb.jpg post-22-1210452685_thumb.jpg

You'll see the tickover and the cold vs warm versions,

I have set mine for my engine,...bear that in mine

just been out to a cold(ish) 90 and fired it up, ........and yep it works !

I could / can now start and walk away .............and it will sort itself out and warm up..............

Thanks as always to Ian (BBC) for treading this path earlier ,

just thought the 'Janet and John' version may help other (electrical) idiots such as me,

..............as I said at the start of this thread...........

if I can do this anyone can :)

Nige

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A point worth noting ................ when setting and testing the valve, you should disable the 'over run cutoff' as its final activation value will need to be empirically set in order that it does not effect the operation of the valve .............. this caused me a load of problems until I understood what was going on.................

Once the valve is happy and is working well, then implement the 'over run cutoff' in such a way as not to interact with the idle valve settings.

The symptoms are that the valve cannot find its 'idle value' as the revs are dropping and the overrun cutoff has shut down the fuel until the TPS idle threshold is passed and the fuel is reapplied ........... ;)

:)

Ian

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...

Hi,

just FYI about temp.sensors. Nothing important to follow:

There are Bosch temperature sensors that are a perfect, direct replacement for the Rover-Efi coolant sensor. Not really important, I know because nobody will feel the need to change the standard sensor that works fine, I just tell because I was so unhappy with what Megatune showed me that I got a new Rover sensor, didn´t believe my own calibration of it (which differed to the thermistor table from fuddymuckers.co.uk though my measurements were similar to another guy with a 3.9 in SouthAfrica) and decided to get the Bosch sensor for which there is an official data sheet online.

Whatever I tried with the Rover sensors, I only managed to get a reading for the cold engine that was more than 15°C below real ambient temp. - therefore I didn´t believe the hot-engine-values (as these were lower than expected but in the end were correct).

The same Bosch sensor can be had for air temperature measurement. It has a plastic tip that makes me think it will react quickly to temperature changes - even though being closed element. This might be more useful.

I could get the sensors at the local Bosch shop. And they have a M12x1.5 thread (M12 fine) which is something standard in my country. Looked like less effort than getting the common GM sensor. They both need the Bosch-injector-type connector which is easy to get if you have a surplus EFI loom or Bosch shop around.

They are:

coolant "NTC M12"

air "NTC M12-L"

and the data sheets in english can be found here: http://www.bosch-motorsport.com/content/la...1/html/2895.htm

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The MAXIUMUM advance you can run on a V8 is dependant on the cubic capacity, ......oddly the larger V8s rwequire the Maxium advance to be lower than the smaller ones,

I presume the figures quoted (which do match up with my limited experience) only applies to full throttle? I run significantly more advance at partial throttle situations.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I presume the figures quoted (which do match up with my limited experience) only applies to full throttle? I run significantly more advance at partial throttle situations.

Yep

Prob a poor choice of words on my part, what I meant to say was that at WOT the MOST advance you can run is xxx etc, then as the MAP reduces the spark can be advanced (as a vacumn advance would do) higher values

Nige

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

Nige

Hello all MSers..... and interested parties :lol:

Bit of an update.

No, a Lie a HUGE Update which will take some 'readin 'n digestin' - hope its useful.... ?

WARNING : Stop now and get 2x beers to get you through this :rofl:

Having had the MS now for some time, I was 90% chuffed to bits with it, the engine runs smoother than ever, and it seems both reliable and waterproof.

There were still just a few things that I thought weren't quite right, one was starting - which was a bit of a ritual, (but not so bad that it involved a chicken at midnight), but, if it didn'T "Catch" immeadiately it could, and sometimes did 'Over fuel' and choke up ........and prove a piggy to sort out and start.

I then fitted the PWM Valve - used the exellent settings as a start from 'BBC' and it worked,.... sort of.

Start up was a bit clumsy,

The engine 'hunted around' whilst it warmed up, I was sure this could be sorted so I read on.

I also had an engine that started on about crank '5 or 6',

Later on I found that this for some werid reason seemed to change if I altered either the VE Table, PWM settings, ASE settings etc etc, and hence the '3 legged chair syndrome' I mention within this post. Ians settings are a fab starting point for many, although I will post up mine here later.

I doubt these will be any more perfect for your V8, you will need to go through this exercise / post a few times to get yours to match your engine, but as with all my MS posts this is a "Janet & John" 'HFH Easy to understand process', interesting now, I find myself saying something to someone re MS then having to re-explain it more basically, the dangers of learning something - that a few months ago I had no knowledge on,

As such I will try to maintain the basic explaination without melting minds :lol: as I know EXACTLY how irritating this can be :)

Re the starting ritual I wasn't quite sure what this issue was, but I have continued to read and learn, over the last weeks and months I have spent my efforts around understanding more the 'WUE' (Warm Up Enrichment) process, 'ASE' (After Start Enrichment Process), 'Flood Control', 'VE Table' (The fuel table itself) and the 'PWM' or EAV (The "Auto" electric type chocke for starting), and getting this not to fight with Fuel Over-run cut off

oh, - And finally the tickover VE Bucket setting for when its warm and ticking over - and it may (as in mine) be WAAAY off what the MLV (Mega Log Viewer) has tuned it to....

I have also been testing and using the NEW MLV 2.94 program, which has some very clever (as if it wasn't clever enough :lol:) additional new functions, and these have really helped me get to the 'next level'

What I have found is that these are all a bit interconnected, for some weeks now I have been-'a-fiddlin' :moglite: and found that when I get one bit "Nicer" something else then misbehaves :blink: , bit like trying to level up a 3 legged stool.

This post I will try to explain all of the above, but you may well find that you will need to do some reading and learning yourself to get to this stage, my engine is a little special F odd - so you may find my settings give you a working V8 but not as smooth until you modify them to your own engine.

We will Start with the New 'MLV 2.94' Version

MLV v2.94

If you have read this far then you will already have (I hope) a basic understanding of the MLV Software and how it works.

There are a number of significant upgrades to the latest realease, this latest version is also asking for a financial contribution,

frankly for the huge impact this program has had on my engine I found the suggested $20 a joke, this would be about 2 mins on a rolling road,

so I have willingly and vocallly paid (I posted on the MLV that people should contribute - its not asking for much and won't make Phil a millionaire,

but will help spur on to bigger and gawd knows what better things).

However if you are a complete tight wad the software allows you to use it but has reminder screens that you are a tight ar*e :lol:. - Mine doesn't have these :)

The key major difference on this software takes some understanding, the main idea is the battle of the cell value between what is already in there and what the datalog plus MLV analysis thinks it should be, and theres the rub.

Quite often when I have data logged the MLV transforms a selectiion of cells, richening or even leaning off and ususally improves the VE table and engine as a result.

However, as you do more and more logs the VE table sort of gets more ccurate, but sometimes it will simply move some values that you rather wished it hadn't, and often find yourself then adding back in some older values ...........as they for some reason seemed better than the new ones.

This is all to do with the 'cell hit value' and the 'VE analysis' itself, ....complex and rather than try to explain how it works here I will simply give you a VERY Basic understanding.

Lets say you have a cell with a value of 80. if during the data log it is "Hit" just once, and the program says "70" do you think its right ?.

Well, if the cell has never ever previously been hit it might be - conversely if it was as a result of a 2 hour datalog last time with 3401 hits, then the new value of just one hit represents most likely the wrong value, ..........so no.

And this is the crux behind the new software,

you can give more "Power" to the existing table, and then only allow changes when the hit rate and the anaysis really does virtually prove that its right.

This way it tends to leave cells alone unless they are way out, ...............or only allow minimal changes.

This is achived via 'Levels'

'Easy', 'Normal', 'Hard' and 'Very Hard'.

I have played around now with this several times, .............my suggestion is as follows.

DON'T just go straight into the Very Hard :(.

I have lost count now of the hours of logging done on my engine (prob serioulsy now in the 100s) but this via the old software is the eqivalent of "NORMAL".

The Base Weighting value for Normal is 3, easy is 0.5, Hard is 15 and Very Hard is ....wait for it ..... 100 ! :)

So, if you have a table and go do a datalog on VERY HARD you may find that a 10 mins blast about sees NO changes !.....ask me how I know. :lol:

I will also add some helpfull info and guidance I recived from Phil (the MLV Builder) below which may help to explain the new software further, and a couple of techy links to the MS Site - don't let it blow you mind, ......either read and learn ........or don't - and just trust the software :

"With each log file hit to a cell on your veTable, MLV will calculate the adjustment that cell needs to be at the correct AFR, and a weighting based on how directly the input data hit that cell. So has you go through the whole log the average correct is calculated.

But, you wouldn't want a single hit to a cell to alter it significantly, so there are some methods to create resistance to change. The primary one being giving weight to the original value. So if you get a hit with a weight of 0.1 and the original value had a weight of 10, it would have very little power to change the cell value by much.

That is really the key Normal, Hard ....

It changes the original value weighting, so each cell requires more data hits before changing.

This has the greatest impact on cells at the edge of you data. Typically if you look at your hits and weighting with the tool tips in the VE Analyze window, you will see that the main running zones will have weight numbers in the hundreds or even thousands, so for those cells the primary driver of the value will be the data, the original value has become a small voice in a crowd even on a hard setting. But around the edges of your running zone you will have some cells that will have a low weight number, you may trust the data more than the original value on say a new setup, so leave it on Normal or easy and the data will quickly alter then value.

Or you may have a pretty good table, so you only want those cells to show change if there is significant reason.

There is more on this setting and a couple other ways to narrow the change in this thread:

http://www.msextra.com/viewtopic.php?t=26687 "

If this is a thread you are reading where you have yet to even start up your MS, then my suggestion is you go :

"EASY" for a 15 mins blast about and this gives virtually a "Free Hand" to the diagnostic software and will aloow rapid and massive changes to you fuel table,

then maybe a few logs - say 30 mins each on Normal, then once is it sort of there abouts go to hard but you'll need say 45 mins logs,

and then finally when you have just about got the best you can go to VERY HARD - but you logs need to be big IMHO :)

This gives then a massive amount of Data for the software to use, and should if you have done a good job see a vast part of the map hit - and often.

This below is my last data log, some 5+ HOURS worth, ....a trip to the paintshop,..... then over to see Si at X eng, ....then to a mates to pick up some bits and home, the good thing is if you do NOT switch off Megasquirt on the PC even with the ignition switched off when you restart it adds to the log :)

post-22-1214039592_thumb.jpg

The above HUGE Log shows after it has analysied it :

Set to VERY HARD

160,353 records - er ...........thats a F Big Log :lol:

16906 records filtered out

leaving a bank of some 143,447 logs to use

With a 144 table (12x12) this log managed to get into 131 of the cells,

nearly 91% of all the table options,

thats good, ...........and on avarage each cell was "Hit" 1095 times :)

It did however only alter 82 cells out of 131,

and thats good too,

as it means it has hit cells and said nope, thats ok rather that up it down it and change it.

Remember than MLV also calculates the cell value for ajoining cells too, so this helps smooth out things, ......and this was then something I found I had boobed on.

I had taken to 90 a while ago a sat in on a CO2 MOT Meter, to get CO2 and HC to acceptable MOT limits the cell needed to be 38, and that was that.

However this is an "Odd" cell, and as such you must reset it to a MLV value - which it was telling me was 29. this if I left it at 38 and not popped back in 29 then this cell and the ones around it are all affected and it can mess up the software a bit, best to pop in 28 or whatever it feels is right, then log, then change the tickover cell back to 38, keeping a note again of what the software thinks it should be should you wnat to relog if so put this numbner back in log and then reset later at the end with the MOT setting :)..... just a small point..... but a key one. (1000 RPM and 50 KPA 'Bucket' is the Tickover '38' cell in the VE MAP Attached later on) :)

For the eagle eyed you'll also see my max MAP on both spark and VE is 97 and not 100, again a small tweak,

I just noticed that when on WOT sometimes I could get 100, sometimes I didn't .....the difference was the MAP Pressure due to hieght - top or bottom of hill,

Frankly if I am on 'WOT' I want max spark, so hence the tweak down, works for me,

I now get MAP MAX at WOT if and when I hit the loud pedal, not 98, or 99 .........and not 100......which gives me not quite max spark fuel etc :)

The log also shows the RPM was 0-5750 :),

and the spark 0-41 :),

this was a bit of everything motorways, hills up / down , full chat, overrun, crusing, this is crucial, you need to hit as many cells as you can and a 'big log'.

The net result off all of this was a change in the stylee of my VE Table, further on you will see

The 1st ever Guestimate MAP I used when I started up the engine for the 1st time

The MAP from several 100 hours of data logging and nmy smoothing of the results

Then as now the latest MAP, via MLV 2.94

I still did my "Smoothing" as per an earlier post, but nowhere near as much work :)

This would normally be it, but there were other thing also done all of these the closer you get to spot on cause more interference from each other, so lets now also look at them....

ASE

'After Start' is where the ECU 'looks' to for the 'just fired' post cranking fuelling ........before going over to WUE, here are mine after some tweaks.

You will notice "Standard Prime" - this has now been set to "Prime Twice" - and an explaination follows later in this post as to why,

when you read this entire post you'll hopefully then understand this last change :)

post-22-1214050609_thumb.jpg

The other settings are 'ASE', tweaked around.......... I have found 17 secs as about right, ..........once it gets to 18 secs it goes to 'WUE'

post-22-1214050837_thumb.jpg

WUE

The 'Warm Up enrichment' is the amount of extra fuel the MS Shoves into the engine while it warms up,

there are a number of break points based on heat so as as iut warms up you can reduce the enrichment until 71 degrees where it goes to 100% (ie no enrichment) -

Enter Part 1 of the 2 Legged F Table :lol:

the 'WUE' Percentage increase comes form the fuel MAP.

I thought I had the WUE preettty "Reasonable" then "Post VH MLV 2.94 Log" it was awful :huh: WTF ???

Then it dawned on me,

I have chnaged the VE table due to the log changes,

as such I am asking a percentage of the table - change the table and the percentage is the same, so say 120% of 40 please,

could be post log 120% of 52 please or 22 etc ?....so change the VE Table from logging and you MAY find the WUE misbehaves (assuming its good to start with :lol:)

East enough, I'll change the WUE, and I did and it was then fine again, in fact I took the time to do it properly, and what follows is how to....

Key things here :

YOU ONLY GET 1 GO A DAY - the engine has to be COLD,

and that means overnight,

also I have so far been limited as to how much of the table I have done,

as the temperature hasn't been wintertime, so I have more to do - when the weather allows.

You also really need a PWM Valve as the PWM adds the extar air to lift the RPM to a pre set limit (which it then drops down as it warms setting at tickover) and the WUE adds the extar fuel to the extar air the same.

Get your PC open - and Megasquirt loaded,

and do NOT start the engine, .........this WUE tuning can happen fast !

Then open the 'Warm Up Enrichment' Table tab.

You'll see the sort of piccy below, where the arrow is is where the temp is on the chart as at now, you can therefore ONLY tune from here to warmed up.

At the bottom is an 'Increase' and 'decrease' button, this when you hit it will add or reduce the value which is the percentage (see 71 is 100)

Remember that here too little fuel will behave sound and fell the same as too much fuel,

so hit dem buttons fast and then listen to the engine note,

quite simply if its hunting up and down ADD fuel if it seems a bit better add a bit more and so on

if after say 10 hit up it no better or worse then go the other way and asap too,

as you can ONLY tune the bucket the pointer is pointing at when it clicks down to the next bucket then its that bucket your on,

and you'll have to wait 24 hours to try again. I did mine in about 3 goes, yours with the above should be 1 or maybe 2 :)

On the RHS are some tables that show eaxctly where the temp mixture is at 1% increments plus other data :

post-22-1214049793_thumb.jpg

As you can see here -40 to 16 isn't reaaaly done,

16 probably the higher level, and then from 27 through to 71 has been done, 27 @ 155%, 38 @ 138%, 54 @ 129% and then down to 100% at 71 :)

everything above the arrow (colder settings) are still 100% 'guestimates', as it gets colder may get to tweak more, but fine as is for now.

These %s feed from the VE Table, so these are interconnected and as I said are part of the '3 legged chair' levelling problem :lol:

PWM VALVE EAV

The PWM or Pulse Width Modulated Value, or as often called EAV (Extra Air Valve) etc is like an Electric Choke.

I chose the 2 wire Bosch unit, 0280 140 516 to be precise :lol: £5 from a scrappy (Volvo 4 cyl - this is important as you'll see later on) and £170 new :(,

so go to a scrappy :lol:

There are 2 main settings,

the PWM Valve itself, and wht and how you wnat it to work / do and a Closed Loop Option.

Closed loop means simply that once warm the system will try its damdest to maintain a closen RPM - ie 1000 RPM, thus is you have feet off everything and aim towards a hill, and the revs would normally drop the electonics will use the pwm to open add more air and lift the dropping RPM to maintain 1000 (or whatever you chose).

This happens so fast that you don't know its happening - it just does, very usefull if as with me 2x 30 amp fans kick in or off road maintaining a steady tickover at ultra low speeds :)

The settings are complex, some I still do not fully understand, but lets go through each and what they do :

Again, use mine (modified from BBCs as a base, but if you look at Ianms and Mine and the notes below you should then understand what changes will do / get what you want)

Main PWMs settings :

post-22-1214051159_thumb.jpg

Idle control can be used in B&G on/off, opens / closes a valve to provide additional air below a temperature threshold,

Warm up, linearly varies additional air during cold startup, while gradually scaling down the duty cycle until the engine is warm.

Closed-Loop, attempts to keep the engine idling at a set rpm actively varying the extra air to maintain the rpm.

We will look here at just Closed loop, go the whole hog - it's worth it. :)

Here are the Main settings and an explaination in simple terms :

Lower temp idle frequency is the higher duty cycle required to start and run a cold engine- ie more air

Upper temp idle frequency is the duty cycle the idle valve will be scaled down to as the engine warms up - either closed or in Closed Loop Mode

These two values are linearly interpolated from one to the other starting from the lower engine temp to the higher engine temp (fast idle temp, and slow idle temp.)

Idle valve frequency - In the MS Manual it basically states "This is generally something most people will not need to mess with, however, different idle valves are designed to work best at specific operational frequencies. Note that the Frequency of actuation is 1000 / this value" so I didn't :lol:

Closed Loop Settings :

post-22-1214051180_thumb.jpg

Cranking (dc) is the duty cycle required at cranking.

Mine is set at 65,

I have set this by noting what the value was when it fires up and settles after a few seconds - mine jumps around 58/59 so 65 is where the ECU will open to to aid it to fire.

Minimum (dc) is the duty cycle slightly lower than a warm idle dc when regulated - hence mine as 40

Closed (dc) is the duty cycle where the valve closes - note the Bosch 2 wire valves close at 25% (don't know why they just do) and regulate at about 40%. ish, hence as above mine is set at about 40 :)

Fast Idle RPM is the idle target for the engine the cold setting - For mine I have chosen 1350, ......

I did try higher - around 1700, but it didn't like it.

Having thought about it this was partly due to the PWM coming off a 2 litre ish 4 pot Volvo,

its now on something 2x as big and then some, .....it frankly just can't really flow that much, so I have compromised.

Also the higher RPM at start would have lineraly lowered as the engine warmed, so to make the RPM 1350 stay higher longer I raised the low temp to 68.

This way7 if the engine is 68 degrees or less then it gets 1350, and drops off at 900 at 78, this gives a shorter engine temp range to drop the revs, also less to try to control, as a result this 1350 at start up drops very slowly as it warms up then past 69 drops....as now in the band to 900 at warmed up tickover - :) works for me !

Slow Idle RPM is the idle target for the engine fully warmed up, Mine is 900

Then these two RPM set points are linearly interpolated between the two temperatures to provide a smooth transition during warmup ie starts jumps up to 1350, and slows the rpm bit by bit until warm when it settles at 900 (mine)

TPS Threshold is the point above which the idle valve closes in ADC (as it is no longer needed), TPS is the throttle position, to get this go to Megatune, open the tab to calibate the TPS get the low settings and then add a bit to it, hence mine

Idle Activation (rpm) is 'how many rpm' above idle that the idle valve returns to operation after the throttle has been opened and closed again.

This follows the idle speed as it is interpolated from Fast Idle RPM to Slow Idle RPM

Dashpot Settle is the wait time required after a dashpot event for the rpms to settle below the idle activation point.

After a dashpot it is possible that rpms will overshoot the activation point and this is the time required to settle below activation point.

Dashpot Adder (dc) is the dashpot duty cycle added to the last controlled idle duty cycle which allows it to recover to a nice idle with minimal overshoot.

These values should be low: 1-5 DC so I have settled on 5 have played around seems to make diddlysquat difference so 5 it is :)

Deadband range - This is a range of rpm that you do not want it to bother changing duty cycle to regulate idle.

In the manual it says 30 to 50 rpm seems to be good I found 80 rpm did for me :).

Adaptive idle control - This controls the time between idle control events. this is from the manual, on the edge of my knowledge, but sort of there :blink:

The goal is to have a Slow Recovery which is tuned to the engine's time constant at idle. You do not want it to hunt nor have falling idle speed. The Fast Recovery is how fast you want it to recover to a decent idle when the idle speed is higher or lower than the target this can be tuned for startup and to see what is needed to recover if idle speed drops significantly below target for example when the A/C or electric fans kick on and the idle drops below target.

The rpm values determine the curve. The lower value should be close to the dead band value and the upper one should be a bit further away, maybe 100 or 200 rpm the next 2 values are time constants needed for startup and idle valve closure --Closure speed comtrols the speed at which the idle valve closes. It is the time step delay between each as it steps to a closed dc value --

Startup delay is a wait time right after the engine is started that the system stabilizes before it attempts to find an idle speed - I have set mine to the maximum allowed which is 255, this is to "Lock" the start position to 65, allow the engine to start, leave the PWM position and how much air it needs alone for a few seconds, let it all sort itself out and then work out the position. When I had this set at a much lower value (Ians) the RPM would jump about like crazy trying to stabilise, I would like to add more time but MS 1 has 255 as its limit :(

More why later.............

FLOOD CONTROL

Flood control needs to be set as simply if you have a problem starting,

or a flooded engine then by pushing the acellerator down past a preset point it will while you crank close off fuel to the injectors,

and allow it to flood clear and thereby start :

post-22-1214052546_thumb.jpg

Mine is at 140, about half throttle, worth checking settings and checking calibration of TPS too

VE TABLE

Original 1st started, ......then up to a short while ago, .....now the latest

post-22-1214052878_thumb.jpg

Even BEFORE you open them to look at the cell values, in their thumbnail format look and see the 2Colours" and "Bands" and the changes between,

Blue is Lean, ,Green a bit more rich , Yellow bit richer still , and Red rich.

post-22-1214052897_thumb.jpg

The whole style of the 1st guess to the 100s of hours MLV logging has transformed the map, leaning off huge area and forming the VE enrichment levels.

post-22-1214052907_thumb.jpg

After MLV 2.94 and the Very Hards it has further refined the MAP, only changing aprts of the MAP slightly making a more complex and accurate MAP

When you open each and actaully compare the NUMBERS in the cells some of the changes are significant, I loaded the old map just for an expereince - yeah it was one, the new map is fantastic :)

Then pop back into the VE map your HC & CO2 MOT Cell value mine is 38, the cell next to it is 45 :lol: ? begining to see the logic now ?

So by now I was chuffed.

I had a PWM connect and set which allows me to just shove the key in the ignition turn and it lifts to 1350 rpm, then slows to 900 rpm tickover, I had adjusted the WUE to mate and work with the new VE Table, the closed loop works, and all was well. I parked it in the garage and went to work for a week. (select the DC IDLE as a guage in MegaTune (Right click on a guage to swap select from the drop down list - this shows the PWM opening levels)

Then last Saturday I went in, jumped in and cranked it, ......and cranked it ...........and cranked ........and it fired - on about the 15 crank :blink: WTF ????

I sat and thought for around 10 minutes. then it dawned on me.

The VE MAP is leaner, the WUE now matches the MAP, but the engine just needed a tad more fuel to kick into life, BEFORE WUE comes in, the danger of latent heat in an engine causing it to be very slightly different to slightly not cold :lol:.

Thus I changed the Cranking from 'Standard Prime' (which is one squirt of the injectors whilst cranking) to 'Prime Twice'.

With JUST this change I went out this morning to a cold engine, 3rd crank it fires,

runs lifts to 1350 and closes as warms to 900, closed loop

and everything works really really well, in some ways the new MLV is more advanced than the Wide Band sensor tuning,

as it has so much clever "Thinking" in it rather than just a sensor reading data, its amazing just how good you can get MS To run.

But, now I am where I am and when you are you will find the syndrome of the unlevel 3 legged chair, alter one bit now, just a tad, and something else as above will be effected,

You have been warned :) you to could have "3 Legged MS Syndrome" :rofl:

Being a Mod I have had the luxury of having this post hidden till finished, I think its all there now, I have missed something I'll add to it :)

Nige

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bloomin epic!

Maybe in the wrong bit Nige?

Cos if that doesn't belong in the hardcore MS porn section I don't know what does :moglite:

As a control engineer by trade, and now a trainer, you would have scored highly for a laymans description of control overshoot and damping!

Really enjoyed the read.

I don't need any more power but £150 for an MS kit is looking more attractive by the second.

Regards

RR

Link to comment
Share on other sites

:rofl:

After the "Brain Dump" I have been taking Multivitamins to see if it helps me recover :lol:

I did wonder re the 'high tech MS Thread' for this, but having thought about it it is still basic tuning when all said and done -

maybe 'in depth' basic tuning......... but not "High Tech". To get a nice smooth running engine you'll need all of the above and some more.

This whole thread was always going to be a "How To" thread for those like me who found it a bit :blink: Kin Hellish,

this is for those who have read through, hopefully gleaning and learning with me, but yes getting it over in basic terms gets more difficult as I go

as I have leanrt soooooooooooo much and found the MS Site sooooooooo usefull and helpfull for what is (me) for a true "EM" - Electronics Muppet :)

...place a bag of capacitors diodes and resisitors in front of me...shake it ..show me......... and watch me scream :rofl:

Do it, you'll be amazed...and there are loads here who now more than I ever will re getting MSed and help you should you need it from all

Ta for the encouragement :) BTW

Nige

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Superb post Nige, great info!

Am interested in what AFR target table you'd used, as from what i understand this drives the VE tuning.

Here's what i'm currently running:

post-692-1214522256_thumb.png

Bit of guesswork really, any comments / improvements welcome

Only other thing i've done since is switched to the high-res version (HR-10g) of MS1Extra. I run 4 squirts simultaneous for better throttle response but found the AFR wondered about rich / lean too much at idle. High-res has greater injector precision but i needed to re-tune the VE table (it was too rich taking the previous MSQ) and tweak the closed loop idle PWM valves down slightly. It does everything else MS1 Extra does with the exception of support for PWM injectors. Seems to run smoother but hard to say or maybe i just suffer from chronic 3 legged chair effect... Nurse!! :blink::lol:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Do it, you'll be amazed...and there are loads here who now more than I ever will re getting MSed and help you should you need it from all

Ta for the encouragement :) BTW

Nige

People, some help please.... I have been reading and re-reading this post, at first glazed eyes and a head ache but, and this is the problem, my EDIS8 has been purchased from a very nice man on E-blag USA, triggerwheel has an order for 6 bolt 36-1 and bracket for sensor, 2 coilpacks from the breakers are on the bench, wiring diagrams for EDIS and MS have been down loaded from here and other forums and i am reading as much as i can (a bit at a time). Some advice as to where i can buy a MS2 would be a great help. Its a 3.9 with lucas hot wire thats on the bench awaiting attention. It looks like ive got some late nights it the garage ahead. :rolleyes:

Jeff

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We use cookies to ensure you get the best experience. By using our website you agree to our Cookie Policy