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TD5 - Dual Mass vs Single Flywheel


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#1 SteveG

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Posted 06 March 2009 - 12:49 PM

Looks like my clutch and potentially the DMF will need changing out soon.

What's the verdict on replacing it for a single mass flywheel and uprated clutch kit?? Rakeway do one for the TD5 including an uprated AP clutch for 495 +VAT

What are the pros and cons?

Cheers

Steve


#2 smo

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Posted 06 March 2009 - 01:55 PM

I'd check the DMF first before even thinking about it - essentially if its not broken dont fix it!
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#3 BogMonster

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Posted 06 March 2009 - 03:00 PM

Pros - getting rid of a crappy flywheel that might break

Cons - fitting a (potentially) crappy clutch centre that might break

Can't think of a Land Rover model made in the last 20 years with a sprung clutch plate that doesn't have at least some reputation for having a bell housing full of springs and rivets due to the centre falling out of the clutch - at least it doesn't happen on the Td5 because there aren't any springs :)

If the AP clutch is decent enough then no problem, but I'd be worried about the usual record of springs in clutch plates on Land Rovers which ain't great :unsure:
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#4 Turbocharger

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Posted 06 March 2009 - 03:03 PM

Can't think of a Land Rover model made in the last 20 years....


[pedant] Any of those with PRND321 written on the gearstick... :P

Without the DMF you might see increased NVH into the cabin but IIRC you're running lumpy tyres so I don't see a big reason to keep it. How are you sure it's knacked?
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#5 BogMonster

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Posted 06 March 2009 - 03:31 PM

I said "...with a sprung clutch plate" I don't think you will find one of those in one with a PRND321 :P

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#6 disco_al

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Posted 06 March 2009 - 03:54 PM

DMF's will usually rattle when on the way out. Check it when in bits, if it's blue, then bin it. If it has small radial cracks - bin it. Better still, just bin it.
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#7 SteveG

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Posted 06 March 2009 - 04:38 PM

Without the DMF you might see increased NVH into the cabin but IIRC you're running lumpy tyres so I don't see a big reason to keep it. How are you sure it's knacked?


I don't, but clutch is slipping intermittently and so will need replacing. As far as I can tell a number of people seem to have experienced replacing the clutch only to have to replace the DMF in a few months down the line. Given this I thought it's easy and potentially less costly/hassle in the end to replace them both.

Oh and yes lumpy tyres, noisy exhaust, the odd rattle every now and then ;)

Cheers

Steve


#8 pongo

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Posted 06 March 2009 - 06:58 PM

The DMF in mine failed, leading to a bad rattle at idle, which affected the engine in that the poor old ECU was trying to sort out the inconsistent crank speed. I fitted the rakeway flywheel with an uprated clutch and release bearing. I also chose to go for a slightly heavier flywheel, as I want torque rather than power (the truck has a JE ECU and a Brunel intercooler, so not short of go anyway). Result, very driveable, plenty of torque, no rattle to speak of, so very happy. :lol:

#9 SteveG

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Posted 07 March 2009 - 03:55 PM

So it seems I can source a DMF and Valeo clutch kit for 300 inc VAT, but plus shipping, a saving of 270 over single flywheel and it has the benefit of being a known entity.

This clutch has lasted almost 4 years and 46K, so I hopefully new one will last that long too.

Autopost have the AP Heavy Duty Clutch kit for 95 + shipping which is 15 more than valeo one. Is it worth getting this one?

Cheers

Steve


#10 Keith Keir

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Posted 08 March 2009 - 11:08 AM

The DMF in mine failed, leading to a bad rattle at idle, which affected the engine in that the poor old ECU was trying to sort out the inconsistent crank speed. I fitted the rakeway flywheel with an uprated clutch and release bearing. I also chose to go for a slightly heavier flywheel, as I want torque rather than power (the truck has a JE ECU and a Brunel intercooler, so not short of go anyway). Result, very drivable, plenty of torque, no rattle to speak of, so very happy. :lol:

Sorry to thread steal but what was the rattle you heard? was it when you started up and shut down as well or just at idle ? I seem to have a weird noise coming from that area on start up and shut down sort of like a clunk clunk like somethings turning around and hitting something. Does this sound like yours at all ?

Thanks keith

#11 simonr

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Posted 08 March 2009 - 11:27 AM

This clutch has lasted almost 4 years and 46K, so I hopefully new one will last that long too.


That's not a good life-span for a clutch though. My 200tdi was on it's original clutch at 160k with no signs of slipping.

My Td5 is slipping intermittently at 60k - it slips at certain combinations of torque and rpm - but the rest of the time works perfectly. That leads me to think it's the DMF that is the problem rather than the friction plates.

To my mind it makes most sense to swap out the bit that is causing the problem?

I didn't know Rakeway did flywheels with more mass - that sounds like an excellent idea. More torque and loose some of the low end vibrations. Is there a down side other than the engine being less responsive?

Si

#12 pongo

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Posted 08 March 2009 - 07:51 PM

Sorry to thread steal but what was the rattle you heard? was it when you started up and shut down as well or just at idle ? I seem to have a weird noise coming from that area on start up and shut down sort of like a clunk clunk like somethings turning around and hitting something. Does this sound like yours at all ?

Thanks keith

Hello Keith,
The springs in my DMF had failed, so the two masses were having an un-dmaped fight with each other. The noise was a very distinct rattle at idle in neutral. When taking up the drive, the two masses were loaded so the rattle disappeared. If your transmission is rattling at idel i neutral then it is probably the DMF. If so, get rid. Ask yourself why LR have not retained the DMF on the Puma engine, which in its Transit incarnation has a DMF.

#13 dirtydiesel

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Posted 08 March 2009 - 08:07 PM

Interestingly, we used to fit solid flywheels in place of the dmf on tdci transits,

But a few of them went on to snap there crankshafts.

We now just use luk dmf and have no problems.
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#14 Turbocharger

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Posted 08 March 2009 - 09:39 PM

Can anyone explain why a heavier flywheel increases torque? I can see it'd increase the inertia you start the car against when the clutch is slipping but the torque from the engine is still the same.
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#15 rick

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 03:46 AM

Can anyone explain why a heavier flywheel increases torque? I can see it'd increase the inertia you start the car against when the clutch is slipping but the torque from the engine is still the same.



It can't, it just changes the moment of inertia and kinetic energy.
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