91 replies to this topic

[Soren Frimodt]

Well FF I think you might consider that Oilworker didn't do the job himself. And maybe this is a cheaper solution to HIM than paying for volvo/mog axles and THEN have someone converting them. Anyways I hear there's a problem finding some steering rod end for those volvo portals, and I know from my own experience that the Mogs aren't the most off the shelve axle when it comes to parts, even though it is very popular around the world.
I do for one see the great thing in bolt on portals, and have been considering making some myself out of Mog portals, which the way I would do it would also allow a much tighter turning radius. Haven't got around to it yet though

[FridgeFreezer]

As I said - I'm not saying this is a bad idea, just that I don't fully understand the reason for going this way if all other things are equal. If the situation is that you can get machining done but no-one locally can mount a new set of axles under the truck, then that explains it.

Some bits for Mogs & Volvos etc. are hard to find, but if your portal ends are completely custom then the only source of spares is getting them custom made. Again, that seems more effort than the worst case scenario of having to get a bit made or adapted for an existing axle. For example, we can replace every part for Volvos, either with new standard bits or some conversion that uses a commonly available seal or bearing etc.

[Red90]

I don't see that machining your own complete portal ends (and all the development work that entails) is less work than making a Mog axle fit, which is a commonly done and well known process.

Volvos are rarer but not impossible to find, I know at least one new build using them at the moment.

He is not machining all his own. It is a company that builds portal bolt on boxes for a living. His is just the first one adapted to the Rover axle. Once it is done, it will be a regular production item.

http://www.killeraxles.com/

[Oilworker]

He is not machining all his own. It is a company that builds portal bolt on boxes for a living. His is just the first one adapted to the Rover axle. Once it is done, it will be a regular production item.

http://www.killeraxles.com/

Well, sort of...hopefully it´ll be a regular production item.
The prototype worked really well and I guess in the line of work and continous development by the guys at Killeraxles there´ll be more "production-line" parts used.

Furthermore and I think that´s really worth this approach, these portal boxes are now being installed on Defender axles, but with just a few adaptations they can be fitted onto a Jeep, a Toyota or almost any other truck/car you like.
Sure, a lot of Rover guys look for portals, but they are not the whole market. Just look at all those Jeeps that they have fitted with Portals in the past.
Currently I know 2 other guys who will go with these portals and their Defenders will be used for more serious offroading than I do, or plan to do, on my travels.

Until reallity proves otherwise I will stick with bolt-on portals. I have spoken with Mal storey about this some time ago and he told me exactly why and where his portals broke in the field..mostly it were too big tyres, too much bhp and overly confident drivers.

But hey, we´ll see....you´re all invited to the scrap party if the stuff breaks! :-)

So long,

Robert

[Oilworker]

Nice! are these gonna be commercially available?

Yepp...drop Wolfgang Tibus at Killeraxles a line (wolfgang@tibus-offroad.com)

[simonr]

I don't see that machining your own complete portal ends (and all the development work that entails) is less work than making a Mog axle fit, which is a commonly done and well known process.

Sometimes, the journey is more important than the destination.

Si

[Bowie69]

Sometimes, the journey is more important fun than the destination.

Si

Agree, with minor alteration

Honestly, I love the engineering on my Range as much as driving it, I suspect for many other people it is the same...


Top work on the boxes, impressive stuff

[plasticbadger]

I can see the pros and cons of both fitting OEM portal axles and fitting bolt on portal axles.

Fitting Volvo or Mog axles is reasonably simple and well documented, but both axles are getting harded to find and both need a fair amount of work to get fitted, disc brakes, etc. However if you're starting a project from scratch and can do some or all of the work yourself then this is, IMHO, the most sensible way to go.

I can really understand bolt on portal boxes if you already have a worked suspension system and axles which you don't want to replace or re-do. And Wolfgang's engineering on the Killeraxles bolt on boxes seems very comprehensive. However the big issue is gearing, I don't know what ratio the Killeraxles boxes are, but Mog and Volvo boxes are both about 2:1 as I recall, meaning that you need a 2:1 to 2.5:1 ratio ring and pinion to make the set up work.

There's been a lot of talk of hybrid Mog-9 axles on Pirate which seem to consist of Mog portal boxes, a fabricated (Spidertrax or similar) centre section and Hi-9 diff. I've seen them with Dana 60 steering knuckles between the Mog boxes and the axle. This seems a more practical way to go get the best combination of components if you're building from scratch. If I were doing this I think I'd be tempted to use Volvo portal boxes if I could get the diff ratio right, or Hummer boxes (which I think are closer to 1:1 ratio) with a Toyota or Salisbury centre.

[will_warne]

I can see the pros and cons of both fitting OEM portal axles and fitting bolt on portal axles.

Fitting Volvo or Mog axles is reasonably simple and well documented, but both axles are getting harded to find and both need a fair amount of work to get fitted, disc brakes, etc. However if you're starting a project from scratch and can do some or all of the work yourself then this is, IMHO, the most sensible way to go.

I can really understand bolt on portal boxes if you already have a worked suspension system and axles which you don't want to replace or re-do. And Wolfgang's engineering on the Killeraxles bolt on boxes seems very comprehensive. However the big issue is gearing, I don't know what ratio the Killeraxles boxes are, but Mog and Volvo boxes are both about 2:1 as I recall, meaning that you need a 2:1 to 2.5:1 ratio ring and pinion to make the set up work.

There's been a lot of talk of hybrid Mog-9 axles on Pirate which seem to consist of Mog portal boxes, a fabricated (Spidertrax or similar) centre section and Hi-9 diff. I've seen them with Dana 60 steering knuckles between the Mog boxes and the axle. This seems a more practical way to go get the best combination of components if you're building from scratch. If I were doing this I think I'd be tempted to use Volvo portal boxes if I could get the diff ratio right, or Hummer boxes (which I think are closer to 1:1 ratio) with a Toyota or Salisbury centre.

PB, the Mog9's don't use a Hi9 diff - they flip a standard 9" centre and run a reverse oiler in the pinion. The same is true for the rear engined rock racers where the input rotation is reversed. Also, Hi9 gearing would not work well with portals where you are looking for a ring gear in the 2s or 3s.

[plasticbadger]

PB, the Mog9's don't use a Hi9 diff - they flip a standard 9" centre and run a reverse oiler in the pinion. The same is true for the rear engined rock racers where the input rotation is reversed. Also, Hi9 gearing would not work well with portals where you are looking for a ring gear in the 2s or 3s.

Thanks Will, my mistake, but as you say a lot of conversation has been on the lack of availability of suitable R&P gearing, even on the standard 9".

[Lara]

Sometimes, the journey is more important than the destination.

Si

VERY WELL PUT!

Lara

[Oilworker]

The gearing on these Portals is 1,6:1 which takes just over 50% of the stress from your drivetrain.
The lift you achieve with these boxes is 4,9".
All shafts are made of 4340 Chromo.



I will be running them with 35" tyres and again use my Proflex suspension with, hopefully they´ll be ready in time, a set of Eibach coil springs. This gives me a lift of 1,7" on the body.

The weight of a Defender axle is well over 100kg less than a Mog axle. The exact weight I will tell you as soon as they have them ready and all parts fitted.

So long,

Robert

[Oilworker]

I don't see that machining your own complete portal ends (and all the development work that entails) is less work than making a Mog axle fit, which is a commonly done and well known process.

Volvos are rarer but not impossible to find, I know at least one new build using them at the moment.

But the Mog axle will weigh something like 270-300kg and the Defender axle with drop boxes just somewhere around 160kg....that´s a slight difference, isn´t it?

[Soren Frimodt]

Sometimes, the journey is more important than the destination.

Si

But the funny thing is though, the more you build and fabricate yourself, the more you enjoy doing this, and the less you enjoy driving! In the beginning you had tonnes of fun driving a stock (stuck ) series with nothing else than some semi offroad tires. Then it progressed quickly, and before you noticed, you are spending more and more time in the workshop and less time in the mud.. A disturbing thought..

[plasticbadger]

But the Mog axle will weigh something like 270-300kg and the Defender axle with drop boxes just somewhere around 160kg....that´s a slight difference, isn´t it?

Dry the Mog 404 axles weigh 220kg rear and 240kg front, so 40% heavier, but it's the physical size of the diff that normally causes a fit issue. I've seen Volvos quoted as 170kg front and 155kg rear, so about the same as you're saying for the converted LR axles.

[FridgeFreezer]

Like I said, I am not criticising the idea, just curious about the reason. If the reason is "because it's interesting" then I can totally understand. People seem to have mistaken this for some sort of argument

[istruggle2gate11]

But the funny thing is though, the more you build and fabricate yourself, the more you enjoy doing this, and the less you enjoy driving! In the beginning you had tonnes of fun driving a stock (stuck ) series with nothing else than some semi offroad tires. Then it progressed quickly, and before you noticed, you are spending more and more time in the workshop and less time in the mud.. A disturbing thought..

So very true.
And one that I am currently addressing, back to enjoying the driving for me!

That was the true reason for purchasing the mog, so much so right out of the tin, regular maintenance (which I do enjoy) on a stock truck should see me back to where the mud is!

[Soren Frimodt]

So very true.
And one that I am currently addressing, back to enjoying the driving for me!

That was the true reason for purchasing the mog, so much so right out of the tin, regular maintenance (which I do enjoy) on a stock truck should see me back to where the mud is!

Haha you are so irritatingly right about the Mog, it is SO ready of the box and it can go anywhere, and there's grease nipples for EVERY moving part. Yet I have managed to spend loads of money on mine, tuning, tweaking, rethinking and so on. I now almost seem to have forgotten how good it actually was when I started. WHY won't I ever learn! Well anyways suppose it's because it really is what I love doing so I better keep doing it

[Michele]

I think it's a good thing to have another company offering "bolt-on" conversions for those who can afford the bill/don't find other (used) axles to inplant/find them but don't have the room-tools-skills to do the conversion on their own...

Looking forward to seeing the Defender rolling out of the box on the new converted axles.

The only thing I don't like is the Hutchinson rim, it doesn't suit the Defender IMHO but this is just a matter of taste...