Jocklandjohn Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 My leaking ancient fuel injection pump has been replaced with a fully overhauled s/h one that has been reset to original Bosch spec. All fine. Except that the pretty good acceleration through 1st and 2nd dies a death in third and doesn't return unless I rev it to death, and even then its unable to cope with anything other than flat ground. I was going as fast as I could (45mph, foot flat to floor in fourth) and was overtaken by a bin lorry! And the hill up to home which I could do in 3rd and change into 4th I'm now limited to 2nd as 3rd wont pull it. I've had a hybrid turbo and bigger intercooler on it for the last 6 years and the guys who set it up for me obviously tweaked the old fuel pump to suit, although perhaps a bit too much as I was getting more black smoke than I'd like. It went well though. Turbo is fine, boost ok, and fuel delivery spot on so I reckon I've got plenty cool air getting in and simply need to increase the fueling. The fuel screw on the injector pipe side of the pump has a small metal sleeve on it and a round plastic cover which spins around but wont come off, presumably because the metal sleeve retains it, and under which the 13mm lock nut resides. So, whats the method for removing the metal thing, and once off will the plastic sleeve come off too? Any suggestions for the amount of screw rotation to be going on with? Hopefully I dont have to fiddle with any other pump settings? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boydie Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 The "anti-tamper" cover is supposed to be just that - to prevent tampering and adjustment of the factory settings , I used a small screw driver bent at the end to make a small lever to prise it off. If you do this however be aware that all warranties will be voided, so make sure its out of its warranty period before you tamper with it and remove this cover. Turning 1/8 of a rotation clockwise should be sufficient as a starting point, no more and see how it performs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewHorsfield Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 It might be worth adjusting the boost pin first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jocklandjohn Posted February 1, 2015 Author Share Posted February 1, 2015 Thanks chaps. I'm aware of the warranty issues, and I'm not looking for a massive ripsnorting vehicle, simply to be able to keep up with cyclists! So I doubt my fueling increase will be overdoing it. Edit. In fact if it's going to involve more than simply tweaking a single screw I'll be looking for an expert to do it rather than start messing about from a position of no knowledge, simply aspiration. (Does that make me a naturally aspirated driver?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frax Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 I would not touch the injection pump till you get it to pull in every gear, the pump should be set so the problem may be some where else and you might just land up making things worse. With a big turbo and intercooler fitted she should pull well. A blast of black smoke on start up is OK but it should clear within about 2 min and then run clear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jocklandjohn Posted February 1, 2015 Author Share Posted February 1, 2015 I would not touch the injection pump till you get it to pull in every gear, the pump should be set so the problem may be some where else and you might just land up making things worse. With a big turbo and intercooler fitted she should pull well. A blast of black smoke on start up is OK but it should clear within about 2 min and then run clear. Hi Frax When the van was overhauled 7 years back I had a Turner transfer box and gearbox with Disco gears fitted, and the intercooler and hybrid turbo installed. The engine was inspected (out of the vehicle) - stripped, checked over and put back together by a well-known and respected company, and the lads putting it all back together on the new chassis are also very skilled LR mechanics. They did a good job and it's run well for the last 7 years, and been problem free (apart from bad smoking which was solved by using better fuel). So basically the old pump that was removed had been tweaked to suit the new gearing, turbo & intercooler. I was able to confirm this because the pump overhaulers put the old pump that had been removed on their test bench and established that the fueling had been increased by about 20% from standard. What I appear to have now is too little fuel for the current setup. This reduction in power has only happened since the pump was swapped over, so I cant imagine it's anything else. What are you 'suggesting' it might be if not the pump? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frax Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 I know that it may need more fuel the a normal 200tdi but I would not think you would need to touch th injection pump to get it. I just did not want you to void your warranties with out having to. Even being under fueled I thought that it should still pull in ever gear but just not to full potential. Adjusting on the diamaphram I thought would have done the job, I did this to my one and it made a marked improvment even with standard engine. As long as you know what you are doing then go for it. Could not get the people who overhaled the pump set up the new pump and still keep your warranty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jocklandjohn Posted February 1, 2015 Author Share Posted February 1, 2015 The pump folks have been helpful (very) but are not prepared to alter it from factory settings 'just in case' which I can understand, they've got an excellent reputation built up over decades (family business) and don't want to compromise that. There is another very highly experienced independent LR garage locally who might be able to tune it for me. This is territory I'm not really comfortable wandering into on my own! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frax Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Ye I know what you mean, I think it would be best to let them set it for you as it will take a while to get it set up just right as its a bit of a one off. Hope it goes well for ye and ye get her back up and running like a good one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jocklandjohn Posted February 1, 2015 Author Share Posted February 1, 2015 Ye I know what you mean, I think it would be best to let them set it for you as it will take a while to get it set up just right as its a bit of a one off. Hope it goes well for ye and ye get her back up and running like a good one. Thanks! At least it goes, but being restricted to 35mph on anything resembling a slope is doing my head in! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orgasmic Farmer Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Oh dear. That pump went like a bomb on the last truck it was fitted to. Guess they have turned everything back to "third world" setting. Given 10 minutes I could have it pulling again without having to touch the anti-tamper fuel screw. However, I guess the pump overhaul peeps have also put paint on one of the 4 screws holding the top cover on and on the circular cover on the top-centre?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retroanaconda Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Surely even on standard settings the car should perform better than that, meaning something is wrong with the pump? Either that or the other modifications are somehow limiting performance without the requisite pump tuning also having been carried out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muddy Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 You should be able to do 80+ mph with standard tune it sounds like something is not right to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orgasmic Farmer Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 I wonder if having uprated turbo absolutely NEEDS increased fuelling to compensate for increased air/boost. One thing to check. Have you connected the little 4mm pipe from the turbo to the top of the fuel pump? Without that it will feel like a slug most of the time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jocklandjohn Posted February 2, 2015 Author Share Posted February 2, 2015 I wonder if having uprated turbo absolutely NEEDS increased fuelling to compensate for increased air/boost. One thing to check. Have you connected the little 4mm pipe from the turbo to the top of the fuel pump? Without that it will feel like a slug most of the time I'm guessing the combination of increased turbo/intercooler PLUS Disco gearing means I need more fuel. And aye the top cover and screw are painted! Will check the wee pipe tomorrow morning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash.Witty Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 Double check the timing, if the engine is fine and making boost, the pump is on factory settings maybe the timing is slightly out. Possibly a tooth or on fine adjustment, not sure how much loss of power you'd expect being a tooth out maybe even running like a bag of nails. 20 minutes, baring the engine and fitting the timing pins will establish quickly whether something is amiss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boydie Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 It may well be that its not the fuel pressure but the acceleration setting, this is via a concentric pin fitted on the underside of the FIP diaphragm, being concentric it has an infinite amount of angles/tapers, as the diaphragm is depressed by the turbo boost pressure the pin is pushed down and acts on a horizontal pin acting against the concentric pin which in turn is pushed into the FIP body and opens the fuel supply valve and thus allows more fuel to be injected. You can easily check this by removing the diaphragm (4 screws on the cover) and look at the concentric pin, there will be tiny scratches on it from where its been in contact with the second horizontal pin, LOOK at the taper and turn it a 1/16 of a turn to a more steeper angle, replace and see how the car performs, if its worse you can always return the concentric pin to its original position or, if an improvement has been noted you can turn it another 1/16th etc. until you are happy with the pick-up and performance. ALL mechanical diesels will blow black smoke on acceleration as there is a obvious mechanical lag between the moment extra fuel is injected (you put your foot hard down on the go fast peddle) and when this additional fuel is partly combusted (lack of oxygen = black smoke) sufficient enough to spin up the turbo to supply the required volume of air for that given fuel supply. We poor miserable combustion engineers have yet to invent / design a turbo that is able to think a few micro seconds ahead of its master the driver and supply the required air demand volume just ahead of the fuel injectors Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boydie Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 When I do, watch this space the beers will be on me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jocklandjohn Posted February 2, 2015 Author Share Posted February 2, 2015 Cheers chaps. I had the timing belt changed when the pump was swapped. Mechanic who did it is old school, works in a specialist 4x4 garage specializing in Land Rovers and runs his own 200/300Tdi 90. He's been at it for decades so I'm pretty confident that its been installed properly, and he checked over all likely culprits for the laggy running before he let me take it away from the shop. I've just checked the wee 4mm pipe and its all connected, and there's no sign of any other obvious faults. I've just phoned the chap who originally set up the old pump when the engine was overhauled and he's told me he only adjusted the fuel screw and the diaphragm (as Boydie noted) and nothing else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cackshifter Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 Hmm, I bought a 110 from a well known purveyor who fixes and sells many, and had just changed the belt and the cam was a tooth retarded. Just saying.. it ran like you describe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jocklandjohn Posted February 2, 2015 Author Share Posted February 2, 2015 Hmm, I bought a 110 from a well known purveyor who fixes and sells many, and had just changed the belt and the cam was a tooth retarded. Just saying.. it ran like you describe. Yes - I've had that happen before (Fiat Panda!). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boydie Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Get it put on a rolling road dyno, its the only way of checking the timing and the air/fuel mixtures through the full range of throttle settings. My guess is its not correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jocklandjohn Posted February 7, 2015 Author Share Posted February 7, 2015 Managed to get some progress on fettling the new fuel pump.With the pump engineer's assistance we upped the fuel screw (small one with lock nut on it) but only a very small amount, less than a 1/3 turn (probably less) and hey presto instant transformation. It now pulls cleanly, a very small puff of black smoke on load and clean running as it settles into cruising in top. I've got third gear back now and more pull in fourth. The old pump pulled well but was pretty tired and this new one is definitely pulling better and running cleaner across the whole range.However. I now have too fast an idle. I've backed off the idle adjuster rod as far as it will go and ensured the throttle cable is slack, but its still running way too fast.Is there any other idle adjustment externally? I note there is adjustment at the bolt in the throttle linkage arm (or whatever its called) - the arm with the spring under it, and a slot in the top with a bolt through it - which is bent at the end and butts up against the idle adjuster rod. Will adjusting this enable the minimum throttle/idle speed to be reduced? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boydie Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 The throttle arm comes to rest against a long thread idle stop screw, locked by a 10mm nut. The long thread has a slot in the LH end of it (the same end as the lock-nut). Slacken off the nut, with a screw-driver screw the long thread out until the idle speed is a tad over 750rmp. Lock up the nut. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jocklandjohn Posted February 8, 2015 Author Share Posted February 8, 2015 The throttle arm comes to rest against a long thread idle stop screw, locked by a 10mm nut. The long thread has a slot in the LH end of it (the same end as the lock-nut). Slacken off the nut, with a screw-driver screw the long thread out until the idle speed is a tad over 750rmp. Lock up the nut. Yes that's the adjuster I mentioned that I'd wound back (and the throttle cable too). The adjuster is now back as far as it will go - small screwdriver in slot, wound rod OUT until its got no more adjustment, but still too fast. Not silly fast but way faster than it should be (dont have a tacho fitted yet so cant give an accurate estimate of rpm, but probably 900+). I cannot see any other adjustment except the bolt/slot in the throttle linkage arm I mentioned above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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