OK,

So I have bitten the bullet and bought myself a welder – a second hand Rand 160S. It is in pretty good nick from what I can tell so all I have to do now is plug it in and away I go right…?

I have a regulator, reel of wire (0.8mm), the welder and as of Saturday I will have a bottle of Argoshield. I even have a funky red welding helmet and some nice blue gloves.

My problem is that my welding experience is limited to 15mins with an arc welder on the farm putting a feeder back together and a couple of hours being burnt by Tangoman when he did my sills. How do I go about setting up the mig to operate correctly?

Obviously I should start with a low current setting, but what about wire speed and gas pressure / flow rate etc? How do I make sure the wire feed clamp is tight enough?

Anyone fancy fish and chips in Weston on Saturday? Damn fine chippy around the corner….

Err, when I say anyone, I mean anyone who actually knows how to weld please!!!

or stop past here and have a play?

if not grab some scrap, dial it up and have a play, too much wire and it will feel "stabby" as the wire pummels into the plate, not enough and you will either burn back to the tip or start spray deposition - aim for the sound of bacon sizzling in the pan (it'll make sense), start about 10 on the gas, wire feed is easy - it needs to feed without skidding (make sure the rollers as nice and clean - not rusty!!), cycle the trigger a few times and watch the roll - if it over runs tighten the damper that holds it in place, if the rig is secondhand at least blow the liner out of the line with compressed air but best of to replace it (cheap), keep the shroud clear of spatter, clean everything you want to weld and have fun

Cheers Jez,

Will certainly take you up on your offer one day - if only to see what you get up to in that "lab" of yours! but for now I want to practice with my new toy!

I shall try your settings and see how I go....... I'll be sure to count fingers and toes before and after too.

http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopi...dbook&st=20

Have a butchers at the PDF download on this link. Handy little book. Has wire feed rates, amperage examples.

Possibly the best and most accurate tech site on the net other than TWI is THE MILLER SITE

hope it helps

good call. There is plenty of useful stuff in there...

Bish

Print and Read through THIS :

Click to view attachment

and DO NOT Read This :

Click to view attachment

Nige

Cheers chaps!

Haver already digested the two downloads, but never seen the Miller site - bluddy good too, definately one for the tech archive....

D day tomorrow....

Charles
before you embark I'd seriously consider an auto darkening helmet
the difference and protection for your eyes is un-questionable.
best investment I made.

and take pics for the people on here to critique how you are getting on, great helpful advice I got on here.
ebay have some autohelmets or there were a couple for sale in the classifieds this week IIRC.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/SPEEDGLAS-9000V-MIG-...VQQcmdZViewItem

is it easier to weld with an arc welder or mig welder? as i always hear about mig welding but not so much arc welding

Charles more info from others I received here:
http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=11296

A Decent MIG does thin to thick, and is very flexible in what it xcan do

IMHO ARC is more suited to heavier plates and guages of welding, and it a PITA to try to ARC thin stuff, its much "older technology" but for the right Job ARC is very good, just not as flexiable as MIG

Nige

I found this very helpful too.

http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/forum/index.php

Good luck, it gets easier/better the more you practice.

Bob

Tony,

It was your rapid progress that spured me into action .

Already have a shiny red autodarkening Murex helmet.

Unfortunately, I also have a sh!te BOC bottle:

Was all ready to go this morning, collected the argoshield bottle and set it up. Opened the tap and the bluddy regulator to bottle connection was leaking. Tried to tighten it but it actually got worse

A closer inspection revealed why:
Click to view attachment

I have circled one of the cracks in the hemispherical seat, but there were at least three .

Of course, sods law says that I'll discover this 15 minutes after the depot has closed for the weekend. . Majorly hacked off - lost the complete weekend . Had to go cut the grass instead

Still, at least I'm not blind / dead!

Charles make sure you call 0800111333 and complain
I got a full refund on mine after 2 flty cylinders

Just notice my contents gauge is reading almost empty after only about 2 hours (in total) use.
Had the bottle about 6 weeks. Do you think they'll accept a complaint or say I left it turned on, which I definitely didn't?

Bob

Well, it is official - I cannot weld!!

Had my first go today, and after sorting out wire jamming (new liner) and getting the gas bottle swapped I experimented with a few bits fo scrap.

I eventually found a combination of power and wire speed that enabled me to make what looked like a passable weld. Great thinks I. Now all I need to do is replicate that each time. No chance! It would seem to be a lottery as to weather I get a nice flat weld or a big gob of pigeon poo! At least it's only a storage locker I'm building.

No pictures I'm affraid as I didn't have the camera handy and I couldn't stand the humilliation!! Perhaps after I've practiced some more.......

Don't give up

There are a number of very goods threads here on the forum re welding - read them

couple of basis that may help

1. CLEAN the metal, that means in my book a flap wheel, and clean not just where you are going to weld but an inch around it as dirt will contaminate, grinders are IMHO not as good a finishing with a flap wheel, and then wipe over to take flap / grinder dust away

2. EARTH, flap wheel clean for the earth connection.

3. SETTINGS. This is the bit that will drive you mad, get a load of scrap steel of a thickness, and get the welds right for that, then take a mental note of the seetings. ie I know with my welder that to weld up 6mm plate I would set corase setting to 2 and fine setting to 3 and wire speed to around 4ish. If I use someone elses welder I have to poke the settings to get it right

GAS - if you have a dual gauge then one gauge shows how full / empty the bottle is the other shows how much gas your letting out, if it has a green band on it get the gas to show in the middle of the green AS THE TORCH IS TRIGGERRED, often it drops on torch being used, this can move it from green to too low !


If you get a "Blob" on the metal then prob the setting is too low, or your not moving the torch correctly / too slowly

If you get the wire almost or spitting or trying to push the torch away from the metal you want to weld wire speed is too high

If you get a "Fissssssssssing" sound and burn tips wire speed to slow

You are aiming for a sound like bacon being fried


I also suggested to TC my method of learning the settings via 2Blow a hole and then back in down" method, it sounds odd, but it helps me...have a read of my comments there

Pics worth a 1,000 words so post up some pics !

Nige

Was'nt a old bike frame was it ?


Keep at it Bish you'll get it

we want pics we want pics we want pics

Your wish is my command Mr Cordell Sir!

Tonight I tried to continue a bit of fabrication but was appalled at the "welds" I was producing so I decided to go back to basics and just try to weld two bits of off cut together.

The pictures are of two pieces of 25mm box with a 3mm wall welded side by side:

This is with the settings I had been "fabricating" with

Click to view attachment

Total rubbish - don't need you lot to tell me that. So as I had never tried it, I turned the welder (150A) upt to full power and tried again:

Click to view attachment

still no good, but I could see that some of the blobs were at least penetrating slightly into the parent metal. It felt that there wasn't enough wire being fed in so I turned up the speed a little:

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Wow! what a difference. I could at last actually see the weld going down and it even looks half decent. Whether it is or not I'll let you decide. Anyhow, bouyed up by this vast improvement I increased the wire speed a bit more:

Click to view attachment

I was a bit off line to start with but that was the best so far.

Having run out of room on that side I turned it over and welded the whole length (in several bursts as I have to steady the torch with both hands and rest one hand on the bench). I didn't change the settings at all:

Click to view attachment

and some close ups of various bits:

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I had cleaned the metal with a flap wheel to bright steel but when I welded (With Argoshield light) I ended up with a lot of brown "soot" everywhere. Any reason why?

So, there you go. Over to you lot to pass verdict.

I use Argoshield Universal.

And look on the bright side
you're getting better

I am in no position to pass comment or offer advice
but good efforts so far more practice I find gets it better and better
especially with the hints tips from those who defiantly know better.

bring the volts down - jack the wire speed up


how much gas are you running?

I have always found 10 to 12 Lt/min is about right with argoshield lite ................... and about 8 to 10 Lt/min with Air Products argo (cant remember the trade name) for work shop conditions ................. and still external conditions .............

If theres a breeze then I go up to 15 Lt/min ............. if I cant weld with that, then give up till the wind dies down or put up a wind break.



Ian

Volts down and wire up eh? OK, I'll give it a go.

I was reliably informed that light / universal makes no difference to what I am doing. Would have preferred universal but when I changed the defective bottle of Unviersal they only had light and I didn't want to wait.....

The regulator is in the middle of the green with the trigger pressed. IIRC that is about 10 - 12 l/min but I'd have to check the gauge to be sure. I am welding in the garage so no wind effects.

Are you pushing or pulling are you moving in small circles

Peter

Did some pushing and some pulling. I think I was more comfortable pushing as I had better control over the direction. Trying to do circles but they're more like triangles

Hence the other comment I made
not in a position to offer advice

Try weaving that's what I got from the welding forum Roger posted up.
the one with short video clips

Dont know the product names of your shielding gas in England, but it will be somewhat easier to learn to weld using argon/co2 mixture. Less spatter and better looking weld beads. When the day comes where your welding really is supposed to be extra strong use pure co2. The weld will propably not look just as good, but the weld will be stronger.

10 -12 litres pr minut works for me too, btw.

The first time i tried welding, i was welding up some hinges on a horse box and going quite nicely but i though to myself, it does seem ever so bright and yes i did have the mask on my face.

After 10 seconds or so i stopped looked at the mask and it had no glass in it.

That evening i woke to total blackness and felt like someone had been sandpapering my eyes while i was asleep.

Very painful and will never ever do that again.

Nick

pure CO2 gives marginally improved penetration over an Argon/Co2 mix but a much poorer finish, correct technique, equipment settings and joint prepping removes the need for pure CO2 as a shielding gas.

Seriously dont want to argue with the expert in the field, but every publication and textbook I have read on the subject has had extensive text about chosing the right gas for the job - just as chosing the right kind of electrode is important in stick welding (hopefully this gives some kind of meaning in english...)

For what I know pure CO2 is used for welding items of structural importance where deep penetration is required, and gives a more convex bead shape. Pure CO2 is normally avoided in normal industrial (non structural) welding, due to allround finish and look, and because the convex bead shape leads non-expirienced welders to use more wire than strictly nessesary. Pure CO2 (on normal "mild steel" ) will also produce more welding fumes than an CO2/argon mix, BUT the CO2 welding will still be the strongest.

Maybe this is of almost zero importance when welding automotive repairs and fabrication - i cant say for sure. Never had any formal traning in welding as my daytime work is teaching and sysadmin'ing...

Also been told - but have not been able to find any sure confirmation on this - that adding an amount of helium to the argon/CO2 mixture would result in better penetration.

Always used pure CO2 myself.

Bish

Just had a look, Jez comments are spot on as you woukld expect, and little to add except.

.....You have two "Tubes" you are trying to weld up -
IMVHO not the best things to learn on I would suggest,
get some flat steel off cuts and Butt and seam weld these and post up pics.

Don't be disheartened, keep at it and post up next efforts.

With the early shots you will also have had the wrong sound 0 you are looking for the sound of frying bacon noise - odd I know but you'll understand when you hear it - and you'll see the weld as better when you hear it

HTH

Nige

no worries Kim - its good to discuss stuff I can only go on what I was taught (which doesnt necessarily mean correct or definitive! ) but heres my take on it;

CO2 does provide more penetration - no debate there, the weld structure with CO2 is deeper but is also narrower - for single pass welds which cant be fully prepped out I can see the attraction, the comment regarding Argon/CO2 use and correct (full) prep, setting and technique is valid though - even for structual big heavy and nasty stuff.

I understand CO2 for structural welds still finds favour in the US but they seem to think anything else is exotic and should be feared. A heavy prep with a tig root and multirun mig with a tig dressing will stamp the living daylights out of a CO2 shielded weld using the same process any day of the week - the key characteristic being exploited is the broader penetration pattern of an Argon/CO2 blend (as well as refined grain structure from repeated hits). As for Argon/CO2 blends not being used for structural welds its used for railway rolling stock (the TIG, MIG, TIG process is used for bogies), truck and bus chassis, digger booms and buckets, tank turret components etc and it seems to hold up pretty well.

Im not sure who the main gas suppliers are for you guys over there and it would be interesting to see if they have a different slant on the process - the big player over here are BOC industrial gasses and they work in conjunction with TWI, thier MIG shield gas selection chart is HERE. more food for discussion


sorry for the hijack Bish BTW!

Is that before or after the Sikaflex? What colour is strongest? We need to know!

The Links below may help you? The first link is from the Miller site. Explaining Spray, Globular and dip transfer modes and their uses P13,14,15 of the PDF. Then the second has the actual sounds that they make when set-up (About 1/2 way down ta page) The MP3 files make it a little easier to understand the modes.


http://www.millerwelds.com/pdf/mig_handbook.pdf


http://www.weldingengineer.com/1mig.htm

Personally I favour Belzona Liquid Metal for my imitation welds - much easier to form with a spatula

Ahem! Back on topic gentlemen

Turned the power down from 6 (max) to 5 and upped the wire speed a tad. The brown soot has gone and I am left with a clean weld (You know what you're talking about Jez!!, Well, welding wise anyhow ) but I now have fine spatter. Any tips?

First attempt is the top run in this picture, the bottom run is after adjustments:
Click to view attachment

A few close ups of that run:

Click to view attachment Click to view attachment

Turned the piece over and had another go, this time I tried to "pull" the first two runs at the left hand end of the pictures and found it much harder to control direction. Second attempt on the top this time:

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and the obligatory close ups:

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So what do you think? Further adjustments necessary?

Nige, I thought the box was the perfet training piece as it has a nicely radiused corner that forms a nice prep for the weld to sit in. Any reason why it's a bad idea practicing on that? (I've got lots of it you see !!)

Fine splatter is actually OK and can be caused by numerous things. The usual culprit is slightly dirty wire or surface contamination. BTW, if you are not going to use the MIG for a few days and you have the normal garage environment, then remove the wire and store it in the airing cupboard …… same applies to new reels. The top shelf of our airing cupboard is full of MIG reels, 3 & 6 mm rods.

The welds are getting a lot better Charles …….. its difficult to tell from pictures but maybe just a tad more wire speed is needed on the voltage setting you are using.


Not comes the hard bit …….. practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, and more practice ………. Until you have developed a technique that you are comfortable with that gives you good repeatable welds.




Ian

box is gonna give you a hard time because you are effectively hitting into length of the wall - plate would be a better practice piece if you can scrounge some up? slow your speed of travel slightly