Hia Folks

The build off "the Kitten" has commenced, my longtime vapourbuild has started to solidify, you will all see more in the members vehicles forum later when I get the pictures right.

But anyway the oe plan was to use a front mount mechanical winch from RKI, working on The Kitten I got the idea why not go for mid mount/center mount??

So I started the search for info, did not find much, Foers Ibex was one, red-ibex another one, but that site is down nowadays.

I need some pictures please! and ideas and experience from you.

I am specially thinking about how to get the rope to the front in the best way for the rope??

Looking forward to the inspiration

Kind regards

Ole.

Only way I can think it would work without crawling under everytime you
need to change ends is to run the cable through guides to one end of the
car, round a roller and off to other end. Have the hook sticking out to use
directly and pull the cable out the other end and use a snatch block.

Only other option would be some way of feeding the cable through the
car but that would mean tensioned cables rather to close for comfort

That's how the ibex system works, with the double line (taking up more room) at the rear. Obviously it's also half the speed/twice the pull as well.

the ibex system works easily because it's designed-in. the chassis is under considerable compression. You'd have to design your own system very carefully.

Also, you'll have to think about the rope (especially if you use synthetic) being dragged through pipe or round rollers that are going to get clogged in mud and crap etc.

luke, wouldnt it be twice the pull and the same time?

just because the rope goes round a roller, doesnt mean it somehow magicly slows down.

but through the pulley effect the pull is doubled.

if you run anything through a pulley, and it goes there AND back - it has to go twice as far, that halves the speed the pulley will move at.

Its the exact same principle that doubles the force at the pulley.

work=force x distance

Obviously, using the pulley to divert the course of the rope doesn't change it's speed or mechancial advatange, hence the front hook, being single line, is still standard speed and force. you are squeezing the chassis in both circumstances.

I like the idea very much.Single line forwards and double line for backwards.

Here is one I saw in belgium - big pto driven mechanical winch - so basic - so good :

sorry my bad luke, i was thinking of a different way of doing it,

would the wire bunch up easily on that set up?

apologies if thats a dumb question as i have no experience of these things!

No, not if the drum is far enough from the fairlead.

On the one pictured.........Ermmmmm

It does look at bit close.

Jim

I've oftern seen instances when both the front and rear winch need to be pulling in at the same time. so a centre winch wouldn't be any good in those cases. Just a thought .

"oftern seen instances when both the front and rear winch need to be pulling in at the same time. so a centre winch wouldn't be any good in those cases. "

From an armchair observer, but, it surely it depends on exactly what you are trying to do, and where your fixed point / imovable object was.

Example.
If your single mid-winched vehicle was being used as a mid point recovery, you could attach the 'rear' rope to the imovable object, and the 'front' rope to the vehicle to be recovered. Lets assume initially that the stuck vehicle is too heavy for the single line pull. The mid-winch winds in only the 'rear' rope, due to the double pull advantage. This would cause the mid-winch AND the stuck vehicle to be drawn towards the imovable object.

At some stage the stuck vehicle will become less stuck, and the single pull can also become effective. At this point it becomes uncertain what happens first, the mid-winch meeting the imovable object, at which point the mid-winch carries on pulling the stuck vehicle free, OR the stuck vehicle becomes totally unstuck, and the winching operation halts to a round of applause, with promises of drinks later.

Yes?

i think the technical term is telemetry winch...but i could be wrong

saw this at sodder's:

I see that, some 4 .5 hours later, the chance of editing my earlier post has gone.
Some (most?) of it is rubbish.

If the winch was set up as described, there would be no 'double strength, half speed' pull from the rope leaving the rear of the mid winch. This rope leaves the winch, goes round a pulley attached to the imoveable object, then goes to the stuck vehicle. The fact that this last run takes it though a couple of guide points on the mid-winch vehicle is of no consequence (unless the mid-winch vehicle is to one side of the direct line). All you have is a single pull via a pulley.

Good job I only do this from an armchair, eh!

I am still interested in the occasions when a dual winch equipped vehicle uses both front and rear winches at the same time, but I'll sit quietly and wait to be educated :-))

One occasion of indepandant winch use, thanks to Chris' cunning placement of a punch


You tube link

I built one, but did not like it. The main problem is spooling out; its too difficult for the co driver if he cant see the drum, let alone if the drag of the system is too high. mine went forward through the car and you could take a loop out of the drum to go double when winching backwards. The Ibex system has soo much drag on it that your winch power is drastically reduced. Also, if you are knee deep in the mud and your cable breaks, good luck...

In the end, I decided to pay the weight penalty and use 2 winches, like most people.

Daan

I've run a couple of LR's with front and rear winches - and used them simultaneously on numerous occasions, more than I ever thought I would. Not forgetting if you run the same winches / motors you’ve always got spares.

Lee

Hi Daan

It might be a stupid question, but why do the codriver need sto see the drum when spoling out?
We do sometimes do night stages and there is no chance that he can se the drum in these cases and it is never a problem.

Ole.

Hi Lee

With the things we do and we end up in a situation where we have to use the winch in both ends at the same time we are in so deep s*** that we have lost that stage so that is not a thing we will have to think about someone will then pull us out before they start the stage so that we are not blocking it, or we will recover our self and jump the stage and carry on the road book to next stage.

The stuff we do is just like a rally we have a roadbook go from special stage to special stage on normal roads. The stages are then in woods, quarrys and so, you start in a startgate your time starts and you have to negotiate the stage as fast as possible so if you end up having to use winches in both ends you have lost it.

The reason why I do want the winch in the back are: it gives you the posibility to get a good distance between fairled and drum, to be competitive we must run winch speeds in the region of at least 100 feets/min) weight distribution is better, and of course if we end up in the s*** we can pull ourself backwards out in a slow and controlled way.

Regards

Ole.

Hi Luke

Yes it will squeeze the chassis but how do get the forces figured out ie: is it not so that in the Ibex set up that the pulley will pull in the rear xmember with double the the forward line pull or am I way out off line

It would be nice to get figured just a ballpoint figure how the forces are

Regards

Ole.

Click to view attachmentHia Folks

Just wanted to show off with a picy off the new toy that is going in the rear off "The Kitten".

It is being imported into Europe by one off our fellow forumers if anybody interested PM me.

Regards

Ole.

There is curently a thread on Pirate general discussion forum titled ''Foers Vector winch'' to which I posted a link to some photos of a similar system I fitted to a Hybrid . Pirate appears to be down at the moment, but just to clear up a couple of points. Rear pulls are 2:1 ratio via a snatch block at the tree or other anchor point. Front pulls are 1:1 or optional 2;1, once again via a snatch block. If the winch is hidden under the floor ideally it should be mounted far enough forward of the rear roller fairlead so that the rope spools itself on reasonably neatly without bunching up. In our case it was mounted about 5ft forward of the fairlead and works pretty well. No problems were encountered with the RangeRover chassis buckling or distorting although the original pulley block mounting brackets required substantial reinforcement. If I can find the link before the edit period expires I'll include it on this post.
Bill.

I' ve not used winchs for competition, but for recovery, both as a business and travelling ''off road''. the military set up ala 101 is pretty standard the winch being mid mounted with a reasonable distance to the rear fairlead .
for front pull alarger diameter pulley is plugged in the rear, it then gets laid round guide pulleys down the side of the chassis and out thru a front fairlead. I have used this system , and its works well , although leading the cable round the guide pulleys does take a minute or two , especially when you are talking a cable for a twenty ton linepull HTSH

this ones kinda chunky


1200ft/lbs, 550hp caterpiller pushing it along but it took 3 lads to pull the cable out, not sure it would fit on a landy

Some Unimogs have centre mounted winches, they route the wire thru ali pipes along the chassis.

If centre mounted i would go for a pto, as I have seen some truly magnifizent creations on Mogs.
Lets say a 45deg slope, Defenders and Yotas are struggling up it with their pimped 8274, flying past, and I mean literally flying, comes a Hellgeth Mog with a PTO driven Rotzler. Ironic bit is that ther are 4 G-Wagens dangling from its towhitch as well...
I just watched it gobsmacked, shame the winch weights half wot a Defi weights...

JJ

I think the distance to the fairlead on a 101 Kockums? winch is unimportant because it is not a conventional drum type winch. I believe the pulling is done by a capstan type drum whilst a narrow large diameter spool driven by a light bicycle type chain is employed for storage of the wire rope. Because the rope on the storage drum is not, or shouldn't be if things are adjusted correctly, under heavy tension, ultra neat spooling is unneccesary.
bill.

Hi Folks.

Thanks for all the input great help, Ihave in my search for information found this info on loads:http://www.dodgepowerwagon.com/glovebox/snatch.html

But I do recall that sometime wayback saw something about sheave "efficiency" ie if the relation BTW wire and sheave, is say 1:20 efficiency is 85%, I can however not find it anywhere, can anybody help?

Regards

Ole.

If you want pictures have a look at this site - the Canadian patent office.

http://patents.ic.gc.ca/cipo/cpd/en/patent...01/summary.html

It's the patent application for the Foers (Ibex) Vector centre winch system. Follow the View or 'Download Images' link and then 'Drawings'.

Hope that helps.

H

Hi HoggyN

Super duper, that puts some light on where the weak and strong places are!!! Thanks a lot.

I have already drawn up haow to do a double fairled for the big pulley in the back and how to get the right triangulation for strenght, that you will all see in members vehicle forum under The Kitten.

By the way

This thing about efficiency still puzzles me brain anyone out there with knowledge in that field??

Regards

Ole.

Hi Ole

Then is is still working................... the brain...........

Sorry could not help it


Lars