A new thread to keep this seperate from existing event discussion

OKAY, here's the plan...

There isn't one

This came about as an idea that as winch-tech seems to have superceded suspension-tech then we should replace the Twist-Off with the Winch-Off

I don't know about you but I rarely get a chance to see everyone's kit in action so it would be nice, at a spectator friendly site, to gather together on the Saturday evening and have a chance to see, watch and compare what the latest developments are.

So, what we are trying to put together is a series of 2-3 tests that everyone can take part in, purely for fun, to get some figures on paper. Not necessarily just speed, but other factors as well.

So, please let me have your (practical) thoughts as to what we could do at West Harptree in September, bearing in mind that there is likely to be grip on the ground and a distinct lack of big trees.

I will try and pull something together, hopefully we will be able to supplement this with a Hogroast and we can all have a damn good weekend.

PS: Vapour builders and engineers need not apply

I guess the 2 or 3 elements would be what you would look for in a "competition winch"

1) Power

2) Speed

3) control

................And length of rope

Mark..........

Good idea Niel. There is so much arguement over the relative merits of different winches, it might help people decide which offers the best compromise for their needs.

Since I qualify as an Engineer and possibly a vapour builder, I'll not add my Euro worth!

Si

For me, it needs to have an indurance element as well as speed. We also need to be testing winches and not driver ability. A dead weight on skids on hard ground so it doesnt cut up would be my suggestion, say a skip full of dead 8274's with the winch vehicle's anchored to something solid, the "opposition" could drag it back to the start position, backwards and forwards until something gives, could also be timed. It may need a change of places and re-run if the ground is not even/flat.

I would be happy to provide some sort of sled/skids if a design could be suggested that is fair to all (and not too expensive or heavy)...

That sounds like a true representation of a real life challenge situation!

Neil, I can't see how you can evaluate a winch without the winch-drive ability which has to include the vehicle and even driver ability?

I dont think we are looking for a winch challenge representation are we? The Howling Wolf type events bear absolutely no resembelence to the Tay Trophy type event. If driver ability is included, you are not purely testing the winch.

A seperate test could be included say up a very steep, long bank where drive assist could be used but then tyres and drive line will come into it.

Is it a winch off to find the best winch or the best winch to vehicle combination? If your looking to move a dead weight then i guess its just the winch in isolation you are considering?

Alan, don't get me wrong, I'm not looking for a forum fight!

This subject has been discussed on more than one occasion, Moglite and strain gauges?

What do we want here? An evaluation of a winch for static recovery work or a winch for use at a winch challenge?

If you take the vehicle out of the equation then are we not actually bench testing?

Are we looking for endurance? This could last some days!

Will electrics be limited on battery capacity, alternator capacity motor cooling?

Will hydraulics be limited on oil capacity, oil cooling?

Will the evaluation require the engine to be running all the time?

If this is approached as a hog roast with some winch comparison thrown in for fun it should be fun, if it is taken as a definitive, end of story, my winch is the best,
scientific evaluation it is doomed from the start.
The hydraulic/electric debate is like religion, we all preach love of the common winch but if you don't worship mine I will kill you!

Just What I was thinking.

Could you elaborate on which particular aspect you feel bears no resemblance?

If you mean long, repeated winch runs then I should like to refer you to the most recent round 2, Corwen.

If you mean that there is no opportunity for chassis deep sucking bog, needing double line winching to recover then I should like to refer you to round 1, Slab common.

However if there are other aspects of the Tay which you feel won't be covered in the current shedule then now is the time to contact Neil to see what he can do for you at subsequent rounds.

Sorry Paul if I came over a bit wrong, I am not looking for a forum fight either. To be honest, I dont care which is best, I know what mine can do and it scores best under heavy use (deep bogs, all day). They all have their advantages and disadvantages and everyone will have our their own preferences.

A winch off in this context should be spectator friendly, quick and fair, hence the skip idea. The car can be doing anything required to drive the winch as long as it is static. I think it would be interesting as well as a good laugh on the night. I would genuinley like to compare a sooped up 8274 agains a type R just for comparison's sake.

As you say, endurance could last for days but if the weight is heavy enough, I guess the differeces could be shown quickly.

I would like to see a few Fibre ropes broken as well to dispell the myth (in my opinion) that they store energy and require a winch sail. I have some old ones

On the Tay, sections are a lot longer and there is a lot more hard winching all day long. I am not knocking HW but they are a different type of event.

As for Corwen, I didnt get to do much winching as my brand new pump blew up on the first punch as it was supplied with the wrong rotation . Slab broke my steering early on so didnt do much there either.

Lets make one thing clear - this is for FUN !!!

I'm not sticking my head above the parapet to start a civil war, if I was going to do that I could think of far better causes

Destruction testing the evening before a championship round doesn't seem very sensible to me either.

As I said, I envisage an opportunity for interested parties to gather round and observe what each others kit can do in a relaxed atmosphere.

So, suggestions so far appear to be:

1: Static pull of dead weight on skids across level ground

2: Drive assisted winch up a long steep slope

3: Spool out and recovery of heavy object

what about a tug of war with just the winches?

why not set out 40 punches and see who gets the most in a set time........

Hows about a winch version of the Worlds Strongest man atlas stones event. Three objects, light weight(!), medium and heavey. Each set at a slightly longer distance behind a base line. Vehicle has to relocate between pulls and team have to work together to drag in the weights. Give the task a time limit, say 4 mins and award points on No. of weights, time and for split decissions distance.

My wife can make a rice pudding that would worry a type R!

I had thought about a tug-of-war but can't see how you'd work out who was actually pulling who

Another idea (as I think JST mentioned control) would be stopping the pull on a signal and seeing which winch ceased pulling quickest.

The rice pudding will go down nicely after the pork-fest

I like the idea of a tug of war.

What about using a rig similar to a tractor pulling sled, in that the faster and harder the winch pulls the further along the corse it will pull the sled,

This would give a good comparison for speed and line pull.

Whilst you load of (iv'e got the biggest and best) Wallies are pratting on about your winches, I'm sneaking in and eating the Hog and stuff you!

Plenty of room

The way I see it is there are two different areas that ought to be tested.

One is with the winch under load, one with the winch not under load.

Not under load is easy. Starting with the cable fully spooled on the drum, cable must be spooled out (or freespooled if your winch is so equipped) to a point marked on the ground, and then retrieved fully spooled onto the drum against the clock. To my mind time spent spooling out and spooling back in slack is important.

Under load testing could be dragging a series of heavy objects over a given distance against the clock. If the object started lighter and gradually got heavier, then it would be an accurate test, especially if the whole thing was done against the clock, as it wouldnt give the batteries of the elctric winch boys time to re-charge etc.

This would be the easiest to set up in field as they could simply be big logs or big lumps of concrete etc.

i dont think drive assisting up an incline is a fair test of winches since different vehciles will have different tyres and therefore levels of grip etc. On the same not winching you vehicle up a slope isnt a fair test as they will all weigh a different amount. The only way to test it fairly is for all competitors to winch the same object about.

Jon

Boothy, prehaps we should put you on the sledge!!

I think to be fair to all, and to keep it fun you should.

1) Winch up hill, unassisted against the clock, This will allow the smaller trucks with winches suited to there 4x4's weight to compete.(you can't write off a winch just because its only big enough to winch a zooki at the speed of a thousand gazelles)

2) Winch up assisted, against the clock, to be fair to the guys who's winches are designed to do this.

3) Driver and bitch stand 5' away from car, then they have to run to car and free spool/ spool out 100' against the clock.

Thats all. This will show "real world" winch action and be simple and fun.


Mark........

Sod the sledge, Boothy would be a good test for any winch, lie him down with the bow of a effing great tree above him a try to stand him up by winch,(no double pulls allowed). As long as his right arm can reach the hog roast and his left can reach a pale of ale, all should be well.

I've thought about this a bit now.....

The two figures that are most commonly banded about for winches is the no load speed (which 8274's generally do best on) and the max pull (which generally favors Hydraulics).

In practice, we are not using either extreme on challenges or anywhere else - so the figures may not be that useful.

What might be interesting is to see how different winches compare pulling different loads a set distance and measuring the time taken. This will give a fairer comparison of the different types of winch with more typical loads.

I suspect there might be some surprises in the middle with winches which are not particularly powerful nor particularly fast scoring better than one might expect.

Si

ahhh...... I knew there was a design rule I was supposed to follow... doh!

Best we don't forget the Howlin' Wolf criteria......................... operate under 6' of water!

It's not my fault it rains... a lot!!

Snow White you little Minx, be carefull or you might get "porked again" in your tent and you wish you were playin with them Dwarfs again, they're more your size love .

"Sod the sledge, Boothy would be a good test for any winch, lie him down with the bow of a effing great tree above him a try to stand him up by winch,(no double pulls allowed). As long as his right arm can reach the hog roast and his left can reach a pale of ale, all should be well. "

Alan will your blue bandaged heap last that long? or is another one punch wonder day?

Neil your winch off is turning into a BITCH off, before they even get there.

My 2 penny's worth.

The winches are designed for self recovery, not just dead weight pulling. (Which is the market their sold into)
Why not have a 300 foot slope, angle slope to be decided, depending if you can find one that long.
Max 150 foot of winch rope each. Vehicle must be winched from start line ( hence steeper the start the better), and must draw rope fully back onto drum before starting second half of hill. Everyone to start and finsish in the vehicle with all kit stowed.
Would therefore be a test of the winch, driver, bitch and their chosen anchorage. 'A winch off'.

Whilst obbserving all the rules such as gloves and winch blankets.
Could even stick a 1000 point punch 3/4 way up, just to give them something tehnical to aim for.
Maybe even stick it in an event as a special stage.

Peters Idea would seem the most suited to testing a winch
rather than risking damaging equipment with some of the other suggestions.

Yeah there was loads of deep water at the last event.

This was only meant to be a bit of evening/hog roast/beer fueled fun! It's all getting a bit serious again...

I think pretty much all the relevant things you have outlined can be achieved with a series of less intensive tests that have already been detailed.

I don't see how quickly you can stow your kit etc equates to winch performance or statistics and the drivers and co-drivers will be fully tested the following day.

As I said before this is a chance to see how the currently emerging winch technology compares.

This is not part of the competition so punches/points etc are not required.

There have been some useful ideas so far and hopefully more to follow from which we will draw up a game plan for the 'event'

I'me with you chris,
Carl.

for the dead weight pull - - can the weight be several crates of beer, and the winch that does it the quickest - or should I say the operator of said winch, can drink it.

Hmmm

Interesting

I think you could consider differing "Winners" as oppossed to an overall winner ?


Some winches are super quick, some superpowerfull, some you can drive assist some you can't

My winch set up is hugely powerful, and not that quick, and drive assist is 'tricky' (read next to impossible ), but for a Marshals truck well suited,
I have yet failed to get anything out, although some come out in bits would love to test the pulling power of mine against other units ??

Rather than go for <shudder> the 'ultimate' winch think of differing winning classes that shows the strengths of all types ?

Nige

PS I may be up for the drive to try this

Sounds good but i think we need some sort of endurance test as well.

1: Static pull of dead weight on skids......................Power

2: Spool out and recovery of heavy object..............Speed

3: How far you can pull it in 15 minutes...................Endurance

4: Drive assist on long hill......................................Control

IMO this would be a fair test, fun to watch and participate in and covers everything you would want and need in a winch

There are some people who can't keep a vehicle running for 15 minutes! How do you expect them to winch for 15 minutes non stop?

Not sure if one could be secured for the event by why not use a sled of the type used for tractor pulls where the load moves towards the front the further the sled is pulled increasing its resistance. All working on flat ground.

Like the tractor events furtherest pull is strongest winch but with timings to markers at intervals along the pull you can also get a feel for winch performance under different load conditions.

Some winches might get the best time to marker 3 for example but never reach marker 5 while a PS driven MM might happily pull the sled all the way to marker 6 but have had the slowest times by far to all intervening markers.

Stikes me this way every winch will have 'won' in some respect and the debate about which is best may continue unimpeeded but with more facts to back up the arguments

From my distant recollection the principle of the tractor pull sled is that as it is pulled forward the concrete weight moves along the sled towards the tractor.

This has effect of reducing the leverage applied and increasing the downward force of the weight onto the rear wheels of the tractor, thus effectively making the sled heavier.

The principle of the competition was how much power you could produce and therefore what distance you could travel forward before the weight of the sled got so heavy that is couldn't be pulled any further.

I stand to be corrected, but if this is the case then it could not be applied to a winch test as the leverage element would be missing.

The sledges i've seen have a weight over a set of wheels on the rear of the apparatus and the front sits on skids, as it is pulled forward the weight moves from over the wheels progressively forward onto the skids, therefore making it harder to pull.

If you move the weight onto the axle of the tractor you only stand to increase the traction available to tow the sled.

How about an additional test

5. Rope replacement test.

Ropes can break on competition and you might need to replace it.
The format for this would be something like:-
From rope fully spooled on.
Fully Spool out
Disconnect the rope and drop it to the ground (the person must let go of the rope)
Pick up the rope and re-attach
Spool in until fully spooled on.
Any tools to assist the rope change can be at hand.

To make this more fun it could be held axle deep in a bog or on a steep slope (realistic conditions)

I would do the test but it may be unfair to the electric boys as my winch run's at 240ft per/min no load on tickover

that would mean 150 ft in 37.5 seconds

say electric 70 ft/per/min that would be 175 seconds

that would give us 137.5 seconds each way 275 seconds,

overall 4 minutes 35 seconds longer re-attach the rope.

As this is supposed to be a bit of friendly fun around the camp fire I think the task/s need to be completable in less than 5 mins or folk will get bored and not join in. The twist off comp took a couple of mins per vehicle! Some of the ideas above are great but are getting a bit serious and involved and would take all day to get 40 vehicles put through their paces.

Saley - dont be using that engineering mumbo jumbo, figures and maths have no place in winching

Lets make it real fun and do it without the engine running.

Let me know your new times then Saley and yer 137.5 seconds could end up as minutes if your arms will last that long winding it on.

Bring it on!

cool - eco-friendly winch challenge, are they common in the UK?

Winch off..... should be good viewing from the Hog roast, i'll bring a chair

I like the idea of it being fun..................

Scientific test ? Whats the point? everyone will still argue anyway

I know what works and what does not. If we want to be realists then lets look at the results from all of this years events worldwide? It is quite eye opening.

I have just spent the last week competing againist mechanical winches that pull at over 20mph without slowing.

We beat beat them all all apart from one..........?

But ironiclly he was beaten by an almost standard 8274 ?

What does this prove? F*ck all, as will this contest. But i will be there laughing and joking and enjoying the crack.

Dead line pulls have no intrest for me, a vehicle that can not drive assit is as pointless as Gorden Brown

Hydraulic users will always go on about there amazing ability to pull all day, and electric users will always talk about there winches flexability in all situations. Result? No different to where we are now.

I hope that all take this as the fun it is supposed to be.

Adrian grab me a chair

Jim