Mike,

I'm guessing that Margaret is having a re-think??!!

There are several options really. I have just drawn this map for you (very quickly) showing routes I have contemplated.

Click to view attachment

The RED route is my ideal route. The most potential to go wrong can happen on RED route, which doesent bother me that much. However, in the interest of balancing realising a dream & bearing in mind that i'll be out of work for some time, RED requires the greater financial & time commitment. It would not be possible in any less than a year. Absolute minimum. Not taking into account that you cant be out of your home country in a vehicle for over a year....I would ideally want to do RED over a 2 year period.

BLUE route has been my prefered choice for several years now. It is a nice balance of time & financial, as it can be done in 6 months without feeling it was a rushed expedition. I will probably do BLUE somewhere between 6 months & a year. Planned costs, or rather money budgeted to BLUE route for 1 year is about 20 grand. I would probably budget to double that figure for RED route. This is obviously taking into account a 50% buffer zone of funds over what estimated costs to expect.

The YELLOW route is something I am investigating now, and only recently contemplated. The issue of obtaining a Carnet is heavily influenced by costs in Egypt. NOT going via Egypt will roughly equate to a Carnet of 200% vehicle value, whereas Egypt will cause the Carnet value to be about 600% vehicle value.
If you are going in an old Series vehicle, it does not matter much, but my vehicle is worth substantially more than a Series, thus making the Carnet a VERY big part of the equation.

Hence my investigation into YELLOW route. Basically, through the middle East & a ferry from Jeddah into Port Sudan.

Where the route turns BLACK, is where all routes are the same, ie no matter what my point of ingress is, I will be "ending" on the BLACK route.

If you have any queries, please ask.

Martin

Hi Martin
Are you psychic ??

They are the routes we're looking at.

Egypt is out even for us. Working an a vehicle value of £3,000 that will equate to £24,000 for the bond. I can't see any bank covering that. Even my house which they hold the deeds for.
I'm hopeing that by the time we get to go the Defender is only worth a £1,000 or less. You do realise the value is the bottom book price without any extras fitted.

I believe there's still problems with the yellow route. Syria. Lebonan and Isreal. What I still haven't found out yet.
Also I notice that if you have an Isreali, South African and a couple of other country stamps in your passport certain countries will not issue a visa.

Margaret has I think taken the "If I can't beat 'em I'll join 'em, anyways she got a plie of Brant and Lonley Planet books from the library.

Have you seen any book maps of Northern and Central Africa. Titles would help.

We're at Driffield this weekend. Margaret's going to be priming some of the tour companies.

mike

A leopard can change its spots.

I do understand about lower book values for Carnets, but depending on who provides the bond, they may use an insurance valuation. The only constant is that, as you say, no mods are included, which considering the new winch alone is a grand. As I paid 10.5k for my vehicle, the Carnet issue is obviously a massive factor. Do the sums.

As I see it, the biggest problem with going via the Middle East, is that there are visa issues. Something along the lines of it is only possible to obtain a transit visa for a very limited amount of time; too short to actually cross the entire country! Even if you could get around THAT particular problem, the exit point of the visa HAS to be the same as the entry point. I cant remember exactly what I found out, but it was something along those lines.

Unless it has changed recently, having South African & Israeli stamps is not exactly the problem......I believe that it is SA passport holders who have an Israeli stamp in their passports that will not be able to get entry visas into certain countries (Libya mainly) Likewise, American passport holders wont get in to Libya.

Book-wise, I would recommend Sahara Overland by Chris Scott, Africa By Road by Charlie Shackell & Illya Bracht, Africa Overland by Sian Pritchard-Jones & Africa on a Shoestring by Lonely Planet. For maps, I use the Michelin sheets that cover the entire continent. For the life of me, I cant find mine right now though, so cant tell you the sheet numbers. If you contact Stamfords in London, they will have them, I saw them a couple of weeks ago there, although the sheet numbers have changed since I got mine.

I saw a very up-to-date book earlier this year of detailed routes spanning the entire continent, when I was in South Africa. Like a right nana, I didn't bring a copy back with me.
I can get my dad to send me one, if you want a copy just ask & ill have 2 sent, or you could copy mine when it comes. If you wanted to try order online, try Exclusive books (SA version of Waterstones) or CNA (SA version of WH Smiths)....although cant remember the exact name of the book. (I was back for my mum's funeral, so was not thinking especially clearly)

Martin

Martin ,
All of those routes look great but I would also be cautious of the middle eastern area. The blue route looks like a good compromise and very enjoyable.
Pete

Pete.
Any real reason why you don't like the Middle East route ??
Not that I'm that happy myself. It's a different way.

I did read on LRO that somebody was going to go that way but was stopped off. So far no reply to my question as to why he was stopped, or what stopped him using that route.

mike

A leopard can change its spots.

Michelin map sheet numbers are:

741 - North & West
745 - North East & Arabia
746 - Central & South

Amazon are doing deals right now, any 2 for £9. Used copies are £4 each.

This is a book similiar to what I was on about in SA, but not the exact one. See it HERE

Martin

Mike,
It just seems it might be a bit risky with all that is going on there at the moment.
Pete

The route is on. As long as you keep out of Isreal. We've been talking to som,ebody who went/came back that way over the weekend.

Margaret will start ringing insurance comapnies on Monday to see if I can be insured.

mike

A leopard can change its spots.

Well there's a lot of Brant and Lonely Planet books in the house now.

It appears that a company will insure me.

I was to have seen the bank manager yesterday but he's put that back until Thursday.

Whet do you think I can get the value of a 1995/6 Dfender SW with 200,000 mils on down to ? is £1,000 pushing it too far. That price would make the Carnet for Egypt attainable.

I'm still thinking of the east route. Through Jorden and Syria. Comments anybody. Aparently Syria don't accept a Carnet. You have to pay cash at the border crossing. Would we get that money back ??

mike

A leopard can change its spots.

Pushing your valuation that low is pushing it quite a bit! But not out of the question. As far as I'm aware, the carnet value can be taken off an insurance valuation.

If you were to lower your insurance valuation, thus reducing your premium, it would help. However, if you ever did have an accident, then obviously, you would only be insured for a pittance, and it would hardly cover the cost of a replacement vehicle. My Defender is insured for 11k, making a 600% Egypt-led carnet astronomically high & almost out of my reach.

Martin

If you are at Billing later, then if you fancy meeting up & sharing thoughts, then that would be great.

Billing has a question mark still. Rachel my daughter is talking of going. If she does then I will scrounge a lift. However she might be going for a few days....
A meet would be a good idea.

Where the value of the car is concerned I'm insured qyite highly at present.

However when I want a value for the Carnet I ring the company I bougt it from and ask for a value. They've always helped me there. I can't remember what it was. but the bond was £6.300 or there abouts. Remember bottom book is the value. None of the extras mean a thing.

Egypt is 800%, that's the killer, as at present value I'm looking at a bond of £24,000 and untill I see the bank manager I don't know how he'll react.

Geez, 800% now?

Maybe, I should postpone this trip (again).....work really hard and get another years worth of bonuses in the bank, and then just do my ideal route via the western Sahara.....miss out Egypt altogether.

Its one of those trips where I dont have to worry about making it just because I'm getting older.....its purely money holding me back. I'm lucky enough to be on a rather large bonus at my company, so I could just save these up this year & next....do it later with enough money to do it properly perhaps?

800% though, thats taking the mickey a bit

Martin, your chosen route through SA is an interesting one ..... by the looks of it you know what you want to see. Seems like a lot of km's travelling accross the country from west to east ..... not the prettiest parts of the country. Also quite a detour to get to Johannesburg on your way to Cape Town. Have you considered shipping out of Durban on your way back to the UK ? Diesel price = R11.44 at our end and increasing.

Many options but depends on what you want to see. You may also not want to miss Vic Falls before you enter Botswana en route to Chobe / Okavango. Moremi is the place to stay in Botswana in the Chobe reserve. The Okavango Delta is over populated with animals .... becomes a bit of a mess.

Give me a shout when in Cape Town. Same applies to Mike. We always have spare cold ones in the fridge, even accommodation if you need.

Cheers

Wikus

Hey howzit Wikus.

It does seem a funny route through SA, but I drew that map in about 2 minutes, just to give Mike a rough idea.

I also DO know what I want to see in SA. I actually grew up there, so there is a combination of my old favourite hangouts (Drakensberg, my favourite place in the world) & showing my better half the country. Ordinarily, I would leave Johannesburg out altogether....nothing to see as a tourist; but my dad lives there, so I can hardly be in SA for an extended period and not see the old boy!

Geez, I cannot believe the price of fuel there though. I was back home at the end of January (my mum passed away) and I dont know about diesel, but petrol was R7.80 or so. That was expensive to me, as when I left SA in 1999, I was paying R2.40!!! 11 bucks is too much man

When we get there, i'll look you up......a cold Amstel & some Wors might just hit the spot after a year on the road!!

Martin

Thank you Wikus. The offer much appreciated.

Margaret still isn't fully convinced yet.... However she is looking at the route and the countries we'd like to pass through.

For fun I looked up The Lonely Planet web site. I checked the security risks for a few countries, including England. That does make interesting reading.

mike

Mike, I had to give Jude an ultimatum this weekend......I told her I was going next year, and if she is still unsure, I would do it alone. Think I may have got through!!

Its purely financial restraints now. That Carnet is the big one for me.

If Margaret & Jude are both still unsure....lets me & you go!!! We can have a "Boys Own Adventure"

Just kidding, I really want to share this with Jude, but if she is worried, I will just do it on my own. Of course, if anybody DID want to join in, they would be more than welcome.

Martin

I know exactly how you feel. I want to do this and share it. I'm hoping that our youngest girl will fly out to Botswana/Namibia to join us for two weeks.
Mind you the way the finances are going, Thank you to all those in the Palacve of Westminster.

I've actually put a SORN on my Defender. Battery box is out, a new one being made to give more room for the batteries, why should I give this government money for the car sitting on my drive.

mike

One route addition which is absolutely outstanding is West (Central) route. Head through Nigeria, Cameroon, Gabon, Congo, DR and Angola.
The West route is also the cheapest and least populated so you end up bush camping 90% of the time. The road conditions vary from desert, bush, oil plantations, and jungles! Plenty to keep the adventure alive...

This route to me, is the best - except for perhaps crossing Central Africa (Cameroon, CAR & DR)...

Hmmmm....not 100% accurate that statement. It is marginally cheaper on a day to day basis, but due to the increase in distances travelled, and time taken to do so, it would make the overall trip via thye West more expensive. If I was going to go via the West, I would probably expect an increase of a minimum of 3 months extra travel.

However, as I said at the begining, the Western route would be my preffered choice, but that would necessitate a far greater financial commitment that I simply cant afford right now.

Oh when will I win the lottery.

Martin

.
.
Hi Martin,
You are almost correct,
800% for Egypt..
.
I really don't know how they can justify an 800% carnet.
Then you have the "Rip-off" at wadi halfa.
That ferry is also one of the most expensive.
i would also think the west coast (Atlantic) rout would be expensive for the number of visas you have to yet, and all the waiting time to get the damn visas.
As much as I would like to see Egypt again, I am thinking, in my £13k 'cruiser, the carnet would cripple me.
i would be very keen to do the alternative "Yellow" route.
perhaps through Turkey etc.
How is the crossing the Red Sea done, which port to port ?
graham

Two books I bought in Cape Town recently.
packed with maps and full of places to see and go.
.
.

.
I do think the Jordan and Saudi Arabia route could well be exciting

Hi Graham,

I had a really long talk with Peter & Eileen Crichton at the LRO show at Peterborough last month, and Peter confirmed that the Middle Eastern route is 100% on now.

I have a contact at the Saudi Arabian embassy available if any help is needed acquiring visas etc. for transit through there.

The ferry crossing would be from Jeddah to Port Sudan, thus entirely leaving out Egypt. Bosh! Just like that, Carnet down to 300%

I have also spoken to Paul Gowen at the RAC regarding Carnet costs, and they work off an average value for a given vehicle. i.e a really good example of a Defender of '95-'96 age, would be valued around £7k (ish).....mine is worth substantially more, as it REALLY is a good 'un. However, if you have a fairly crappy example of the same aged Defender, you would still base the Carnet on £7k.

Paul recommends getting an impartial valuation from Paul Marsh at Footloose 4x4. I have spoken to Paul several times, and he is in no way connected with the RAC, its just that he is such a respected figure in the world of overlanding, that his opinion & vehicle valuations are taken as gospel by the RAC.

Perhaps if you were having works done at Footloose, or buying gear (as I am), you could convince the right people that your vehicle is worth almost nowt, if you know what i'm getting at??!!

Soooo, potentailly going via Saudi Arabia MIGHT only necessitate a Carnet of 150-200% value.

Hi Godly,
good information.
I do like the sound of the Saudi route, I have been to cairo, aswan etc, so nothing much left for me to see there.
it's just that damn 800% and the Aswan/Wadi ferry.

I was originally looking at the Atlantic route, Moroc, Maurat, Mali etc, but there is just so many countries to pass through.
Sure, would probably be the more exciting route, but also the most time consuming.
Taking time off work for 2 months ~ 3 months isnt too bad, but i think the Atlantic route needs perhaps 3 ~ 4 months.

I do have a liking for Turkey, and the East, so Syria, Jordan, Saudi, Sudan might just be it for me.

Im'e not a LR man, but when you axle deep in sand, it doesn't matter who pulls you out. It's all good banter.
.
.
.

.

I still think those values are too high.
When I took my 1996 Defender out to Namibia in 2007 mine was valued at £3,500
Remember no extras are included in the valuation it's just the base vehicle.

mike

Godly,
Are you a "prospective" over-lander to Cape Town?
Or have you already done other over-land routes?
Graham
.
Currently in Olso

Graham,

It has been a dream of mine for many years to cross Africa (either by car or bicycle), but I have not always been in a position financially to own a vehicle capable of making such a journey.

I have now owned my Defender for 18 months, and have managed to get in quite a lot of vehicle experience (greenlaning/pay & play/travelling.)
Apart from a few trips through Europe, I guess that would make me more a "prospective" Overlander, as my expeditions so far have only ran for a matter of weeks, rather than several months.

However, I do have a lot of travel experience, as I spent many years of my life backpacking & travelling around. I also grew up in South Africa (but born in England) so know the country better than I do the UK.

By the way, nothing wrong at all with that vehicle of yours! It was due to a Toyota in South Africa, that I vowed to own a 4x4 at some point. Dare I say it on this forum? But to this day, I hold a very special place in my heart for a Toyota Hilux Raider.

Martin

Aaah,
The 2.7 petrol Raider,
Very capable. My good friend in CPT has one, a little "thirsty" I might add.
I lived in Cape Town for 16 years, so, could take you round Cape town and the peninsular, better than Liverpool, Manchester or the North West !

And You? Fancy a drive to Cape Town?
I am considering doing it in say 24 months from now.
Need that time so save!

My wife is a South African girl, and her family, brothers sisters etc, are still there, we have strong ties there still.
Hence the overland trip to Cape Town is more than just an idea, it's some thing that is close to my heart.
We have a small house in Cape Town suburbs, just 7km outside Cape Town itself.
It is a wanting fact that my wife wants us to buy a bigger house in CPT, and retire there.

I just need a bit of convincing.

I will see if I can send PM.
Maybe not enough posts yet !

Graham

Hello Martin and others,

It looks like there could be a route change for our trip to Cape Town September / October 2010.

After listing all the possible charges for vehicle carnet,
It is more clear, that if your' in a vehicle thats circa £10k, and Egypt is on your route, then it's expensive.

There is a school of thought now, possible run down to Istanbul, through Syria, through Jordan and into Saudi.
head for Jeddah, and ferry across to Saawakin, in Sudan, thats just 100km's south of Port Sudan.
then continue on the Ethiopia, Kenya, ect,

Page 1 from the beginning,
http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hubb/trav...cape-town-33834


here is page 2 of the thread for anyone interested. (Carnet costs etc)
http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hubb/trav...pe-town-33834-2

This trip is just going to get done, but not at throwing money away, just to drive through Egypt.
Oh, and also the ferry from Aswan to Wadi Halfa, is also costly.
this is so, because there is no permitted road crossing between Egypt and Sudan, so the ferry is a must.

Graham

Graham
We looked at that route. Like you say the Egypt is no no for the Carnet cost.
Also I've heard no GPS in Egypt. Anybody else heard that ?

Margaret and myself have knocked the drive down on the head, well at least for the time being, so if we can get medical cover we'll ship to Namibia as we usually do.

mike

Hello Mike,
I understand GPS works ok in Egypt.
There are loads of way point files to pick from.
When were you guy's planning to leave?
What route were you going to do
Graham

Sorry Graham but you've read me wrong. Or I didn't put it correctly.
GPS are banned in Egypt. Do you know anything other.
Margaret picked it up last week.

mike

Hello Mike,

GPS banned in Egypt !
Never heard of that one,
But who's to see you are using GPS anyway,
Road signs are very good any way, all the way down to Aswan.

Which route had you been looking at, perhaps the Istanbul, Syria, Jordan would suit you guy's.
Were you going to ship back to UK after arriving in Cape Town?

Grahan

Hello Mike,
Might need to ask the source of your information
.
http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hubb/rout...8537#post212000