For anyone who has to buy a crash helmet for competing (motorcycle helmets will not meet MSA regs), there is a lot of info on the Devon forum.


I have just spoken to Demon Tweeks and they would give a discount if a few of us turn up to try and buy. They have a good stock and differing sizes in the type of helmets we require.

If any one wants to go, I will arrange a group visit for Saturday 14th June (I have to get one in time for Manby). The manager suggests as early as possible as they get mega busy on saturdays. I would set off at 8.00 am.

If you are definately interested post here or to my e-mail and I will sort it out.

Demon Tweeks are in Wrexham, 1-1/4 hours from Manchester.

alankempwets@yahoo.co.uk

Yes i am up for that as i think all the competitions will go this way.

Neil may have a say?

I think the organisers of the Tay are quite right to assess the risks on their event and put in place whatever precautions they feel are necessary to protect the competitors and themselves as organisers.

However I can't see helmets being enforced across MSA-Sanctioned Challenge events unless as part of a package of measures which would likely include regulation roll cages and harnesses.
It doesn't make sense to me to enforce helmets if you aren't also going to enforce specification rollcages as you are acknowledging a higher than average risk of roll but doing nothing to protect the occupants of the cab should that happen.

Certain examples have been cited as to the need for helmets in a non-rollover situation, including risks to the co-drivers whilst out of the vehicles. Again credit to the organisers for recognising those risks and trying to protect against them, but personally I think it is un-necessary legislation and should be left to the individuals participating to decide.

Having said all of that once you've got an MSA spec helmet you've got it and providing you look after it, it will always be there when you need it.

hopefully having a run over to macclesfield at the weekend to get our shiny new skidlids.Start at about £50 for the bs/msa spec we need for the TFC
Paul

Hi Alan and others in for Helmet purchase.

We have used helmets for some years now, and before we bought them I had some thoughts.

It must be possible somehow to clean them inside in an easy way, we all know that things can get pretty dirty not just mud but also sweaty and so.
( we have found that washing up liquid and a nailbrush do a good job and then on the heater for 24 hours after each event)

The way the helmet straps are tighten must be oki with mud and must be easy to do and undo with dirty and sometimes frosty fingers or gloves on.

It is a good thing if the helmet is easy to build in some kind off intercom, we use some very good but also rather expensive Peltor gear where you can speak both ways at the same time, which has proved to be very good.

As we have not done speed events yet but are to do in the future, we chose a rather cheap bike helmet that was oki with the rules and regs.

And paid a company to build in the Peltor stuff.

For next years speed events we are going to buy the open Peltor helmets.

That was just my 2'pennies

Good luck with the purchase.

Kind regards

Ole.

Got the Sparco Pro Jet (open face helmet), pretty light and easy to combine with intercom.

http://www.demon-tweeks.com/products/Produ...code=SPA335LBLK

Instead of the expensive Peltor communication systems, have you had a look at eartec? Full Duplex, not that expensive and tested them in a challenge and worked great!

http://www.eartec.com/Wireless%20Wired/td900wireless.html

rgds

H.

Hi Hendrik

I know these com radios, they are as far as I know not legal in Europe I have investigated in them, I found them almost two years back, it appears that they use the same frequency as mobile phones do in the 900MHZ band.

As far as I do remember I at that time found out that in the US these frequencies are located for this kind off equipment like we have here in Europe 430 something MHz for the same use nut a lot less power is allowed as far as I know.

I know they are very good and cheap, but would not use them, I could be the guy who could not use my mobile phone to call the ambulance because off "jamming" from them..if you get me..

You are right thu they are good I think I found out that the US rock-crawler guys use them alot.



Kind regards

Ole.

I'll echo Neils thoughts on the use of them and cages etc. My current requirement is that open topped vehicle occupants must wear a helmet if competing in a 'series event', other than that i can't see my insurance group currently changing their requirements regarding the use of helmets in hardtop or caged vehicles.

Although i do think they are a bloody good idea for driver and codriver alike.

I personally feel that events are being pushed along so fast, and that organisers are having to make sections so tough, that helmets should be complusory, Period.

I have competed in challenges wearing helmets for more years than i care to remember, and it is not a problem.

I forgot my helmet this year at this years Ultimate and felt naked without it.

Having seen the severity of the sites and sections being set up recently, i hope that ALL organisers bring in helmets as complusory items sooner, rather than later before someone DOES get hurt.

Some teams won't like it, well it is simple, DON'T RACE.

Jim

On the same theme would it not make sense to introduce (as some clubs/regs do) a logbooked or recognised cage built constructed and welded to a standard, and not something that has been styled to suit out of whatever was available, which I'm sure we have all seen,

and recognise the use of a full safety recognised safety harness and not a standard seatbelt or lapbelt which allows drivers to half hang out of the window whilst competing?

Click to view attachmentClick to view attachmentClick to view attachment
This is a £50 helmet which I used to use when I first started racing




Click to view attachment

These are the kite marks on my current helmet

When buying a crash helmet all I could think was that I only have one head the peltor intercom is very good and totally clear so you can hear everything said and the car noise is mostly blotted out.

for challenging would the bike blue-tooth system could be worth a look or like on the aus videos you see them with a radio taped to the side of the helmet I admit it looks a little heath Robinson but affective none the less

That would be the can of worms you DON'T want to open.

The only recognised cage spec is the MSA's and I would wager that 95% of trucks currently competing would not comply.

It would be interesting to have a closer look at Cowm and see if there are ANY that would!!

But if the events are leading towards speed then the regs currently used by the comp safari boys should be looked at possibly maybe.

I'm still surprised the Challenge comp cars don't use the comp safari as speed practise and the racing regs can't be that hard to meet.

Yep exactly the point I'm trying to make Neil,

My motor has a current MSA logbook and a Tag on the cage and what a pain in the rear it can be and was to get it.

95% of the trucks would not pass being road legal anyway but hey that a totally differant can of worms

Can quite understand in this day and age of heath and safty as why helmets are not used in winch challenge already . After all they are around the rest of the world

Yes and no

Hats are a good thing but I have raced in hats for nearly ten years so its second nature for me to get in a racer and put a helmet on but I can see why if your not used to it people will be reluctant because they can be heavy and restrictive. Having said that I wouldn't want any more than a cheap crash helmet for challenging as the mud and scraps it would get is not practical and just wasteful doing in a £400 peltor or sparco helmet

My challenge truck (although now as a challenger would be 3 yrs out of date) had a comp safari spec cage built to me requirements only because Stunning services built it and he a comp safari specialist but a lot (not all) of the cages you see are built with a the same thing in mind which is strength so a good scrutineer will see that. I would assume.. and I have competed and won class championships at club and national level

I have never needed to have a cage stamped or MSA log book for my four compsafari race cars or the Challenge truck as I don't take them Rallying

I only say that because I have never been asked for one in my ten years of racing


Oh and sorry to start taking it on a tangent.

Agreed. I think a B standard helmet is more than enough.

I also agree with you that cages should have some regulation, but on this i am as guilty as the rest and built mine to my spec rather than a motor sport formula as i knew there was no governing body.

Is there anybody againist crash helmets?

Jim

Scrutineers are not qualified (as a requirement of office) or equiped to decided whether a roll cage 'is up to the job', just whether it complies with whatever regulations are in force.

As Neil says, can of worms

I should have said that the SCOR scrutineen built some of my cages for my Hibred racer and the challenge truck but I had SD comp safari Range Rover cage and and Robo was consulting while SD were bulding the comp safari Freelanders cages.

I am not against helmets but I am against full harness's. We dont race and rarely get above 15 mph. At Manby last year, the "race" sections were quite slow, Pete reconed on 9mph reading his sat nav. I dare say Jim went a bit faster on the odd bit though . A full harness is too restricting for what we do. I have had a few rolls and 2 end over end, quite serious rolls, all with a normal seat belt and I was amazed how well they work and hold you in. I bust a couple of ribs on one but a full harness would not have made any difference as is was landing on its side that caused the injury.

If a cage is well made and out of the correct material, I think most of our cages are sufficient for what we do. In my opinion, too much regulation will ruin the game and see a lot of people drop out...

I would have no problem with wearing a helmet if the rules stated that I needed one... Are there any stats in existance in relation to injuries sustained in Challenge events- would be interesting to see how many head injuries etc have actually been sustained and how (driver error etc.)

On the subject of cages... I think you would find that challenge events would die a quick death if we suddenly all needed MSA spec cages- just how many of the truck currently competing have them?- and how many of those that dont could afford to bring them up to spec? I can't even afford a cheap and cheerful cage at the moment

IMHO cages don't need to be OTT for challenge events- IF the organsers are sensible about punch placement and any speed sections... you obviously also have to drive sensibly and know your limits as well though.

One thing I would say to anyone about to go down the road of fitting a cage,

It would seem sensible to do the job properly now if you can afford it and would also give you the peace of mind that should things go that way you don't have to start all over.

The other thing to bear in mind is to at least have your main hoop up to spec, the rest although very usefull in additional protection for the occupants in alot of cases in our sport is being fitted to protect the vehicle structure in minor rolls and in fending off trees and the like which is another subject again. This is only my view and I don't claim to be any sort of expert on cages and their construction.

Is it that we are setting the course to be tougher to test competitors, or is it that we have a limited number of sites and the only way to provide something new is to use what previously would have been considered as too dangerous?

Vehicle development will always adapt to the conditions and severity that are presented. As organisers we don't always know the abilities of all our competitors as new faces are appearing all the time. What can be safely achieved by one team could be potentially dangerous for the next!

Helmets are in simplistic form just PPE, as is a roll cage at a slightly different level. Do we want to try to protect people from danger by wrapping them in cotton wool or change the way we set up events removing some of the danger but testing the teams in other ways.

Don't get me wrong, the danger element is part of the sport that we all enjoy, but is it always sufficiently controlled?

One things for sure, if we don't prevent the accident from happening it could effect our sport in ways we may not be able to control. The bomb is ticking!

I think you have hit the nail on the head, but not the way you thought.

Some people do know there limits and also know that they have to pass those to be able to beat some people.
That is when they take the 'Risk' and that is when crash helmets and cages come in to effect.

The questions about head injuries? I have banged, bumped and cut my head on numerous occasions when eventing and strongly feel that crash helmets will stop this.
After a two day event without a helemt my neck is sore from bracing as i try to stop my head hitting the side panels of my vehicle.
When i compete with a helmet this problem dissapears as i don't worry about it, thus no sore neck.

Speed always comes into it, as Alan says at Manby last year many cars did not get over 15mph, but some of us did and many more will in the future as people get faster and faster vehicles.
I am againist the speed bans, but i again also understand why they exist and support them fully until a clearer way forward is found.

Jim

Jim banging the helmet isn't really a good idea anyhow, motorcycle helmets if dropped are recommended to be replaced.
you'll get a feeling of false security I think any car without a roof ie TC/HT running just canvas would be advised to wear a helmet to save them from intrusion.
To many regulations will see the sport off down the road of the few who can afford everything, including trailers etc to tow the comp cars around.

Speed is what will be the main cause of most accidents but it can be controlled with sensible use of section rules and layout. It is an integral tool which can be used to keep pressure on teams and enhance the fun factor, but not having to be the main element that brings the highest score.

A book could easily be written on roll cages and I think enough information is in the technical archive to do so,

but a good roll cage does not need to be expensive and a good well made, well planned cage can and will easily out perform many expensive ones.

The ARC handbook is excellent as is the AWDC one on methods of securing and constructing cages and well worth aread before installing one, its like anything only as good as its foundations.

The book has already been written and it is blue !!!

The MSA Blue Book regs for off-road vehicle preparation were compiled from AWDC & ARC regs which pre-date the MSA's involvement with offroad.

As Steve Hiatt has stated previously any other regulations would require scrutineers to exercise their judgement as to whether a cage complied and this would have no grounds if taken through the legal process.

If you want to build cage that does not comply and be covered by MSA insurance then you would have to submit it for evaluation and possible testing at MIRA at your expense. If it passed then you would have a certificate allowing you to build as many as you like to that exact same specification and they would be legal.

There are many who have gone before who have tried to beat the system and failed.

The easiest thing at this stage is to keep the requirement for a 'legal' cage out of the equation.

Hear what your saying Tony,


And i know banging your hat is not a good thing, but better that than your head......... in most cases

Jim

In a world were Event insurance is becoming harder and harder to get surly the MSA will soon be the only option there for being prepared is the way to go.

Australian 4x4 racing has had mandatory helmets for the last 3 years since i've been into into it - but Aus racing seems vastly different (more high speed stuff)

check out the Cross Country Drivers Association (CCDA www.ccda.org.au) for info on our Cages. If it is not to the required spec or hasn't been certified you don't race.

Just another bit of info that could be modified for your use.

Cheers
Dave.

just a question but will they also be stipulating collars or HANS devices to be used with helmets?

having raced bikes for most of my life I find it scary the way car drivers treat helmets - they are designed to disapate energy by falling apart, dink them or drop them and you've reduced thier capacity to protect you - build a car where they are regularly bashed against a roll cage and you may as well throw the hat in the bin. a bash or scrape would fail a hat with a decent scruitineer at an ACU race so will the 4x4 organisers follow that maxim?

Helmets will take a few small hits with no problem if you have ever tried to brake one you will know how strong they are, before i screwed up my sholders i used to compete in enduro's and ive had my fair share of falls, crashes etc. There is no way i was going to buy a new helmet evey time i fell off!

If you do bang the helmet against the inside of the cab its probably a good idea to put a bit of foam on the contact area, if your helmet is badly scratched the scrutineers could say its unsafe
Never buy a second hand helmet either, it might have had Jim's sweaty head in it!

its your brain ultimately so feel free to put it in a tin bucket with a napkin for a shock absorber fella, you may want to contact some helmet manufacturers and ask them about how a hat actually works before relying on it to provide some basic protection for a reasonably vital organ, or you could read HERE for a rough outline.

if an organiser is proposing you must wear a hat in order to provide protection then it would be suicide from their insurance point of view to accept hats with any visible damage or the age old sticker bandage routine (unless they have an on-site Xray machine ) - its a waste of time wearing damaged hats

Be aware that the Blue BS stickered helmets will time out at the end of 2009 for MSA events.

So get the red BS or better.

Interesting article in my inbox this morning for all those thinking of getting a helmet:

Dft Article: Motorcycle helmet ratings

Which leads to:

http://dft-1-sharp.eduserv.org.uk/

...loads of advice on ratings, fit etc.

It may seem good to cut corners, but 'it'll never happen to me' always happens to someone.

I don't know about motorbike racing etc.

but if your hemet is not clean so any defects eg scratches, dents etc. can be seen the scrutineer will not even look at it which means you can't compete.

I have raced for years with and without neck braces and heve been end over end at speed in comps which can focus ones mortality some what, I did done some testing on a south African product which is a cheaper version of the hans device for a mate which was looking at marketing them in the uk I pursonaly found for racing I didn't it that restrictive supprisingly enough and was quite happy to wear it after a few laps of racing but for challenging and the current uk events its IMHO massive over kill and simply would not work.

but you're right you need to treat a helmet with kit gloves

My choice of words could have been better (bash or scrape) mud and bush scratches

So if I crawl trough the undergrowth to fix a tree strop (which I do at every event) and scratch the laquer off my £300 lid first time out then I am going to fail next scrutineering as there are visible signs of damage of indeterminate origin necessitating a new lid before I can compete again...... End of sport me thinks!

Lets put this into context.

Quite simply, any helmet is better than no helmet........Full stop end of story.


Jez, don't panic as you have no intention of racing on this isle you are quite safe.


The Aussies never used to have a helmet rule until a few years ago...........

Then someone died.

Lets make it happen before that happens to us.

But please let us not tie oursleves down with red tape (Yes we do need rules, but not B*llsh*t)

Perhaps let us look at the CCDA in Aus for some advice or inspiration. But let us just get things started by all agreeing that HELMETS are needed !

Or is it going to take a death to kick start us in to action

Jim

Ps: This where we are headed, and i would like helmets to be complusory sooner rather than later.......
Check this out : http://www.mudrhino.com.au/Movies/EngelTeaser2.wmv
Imagine doing that without a helmet ?

Nice clip that Jim. Looks good fun. Wouldn't want to be a co-driver for some of the teams. The way they launched their trucks towards the co-pilot . Some good spectacular stages but where in the UK are you ngoing to get stages like that for a whole event?

The speed is the main difference there
Helmets etc a necessity.
The UK events are thankfully somewhat slower.
each to their own.
If I was driving at that sort of speed a helmet would be 1st on the list of PPE

no panic involved Jim, somewhat more amused than anything else - simply applying the nanny state litigation mentality to its logical end point

FYI - a compression damaged helmet IS more dangerous than no helmet, F=MA? as for my intentions? I think I know them better than anyone but thanks for the tip

A pleasure

So any chance of seeing you and Mouse competeing in this country?

Or have we only pics and film clips to watch?

Many good events you could enter, but you might have to wear a helmet

Would be great for all to have a chance to drive with you? And compare their skills and vehicles to yours?

I am sure many would jump at the chance



Jim

I guess we wont be seeing you at Vepsskii then Jim?

no need to spoil your quiff there

shall we return to the topic or are you trying to get into some form of sidetrack?

Of course you are right........

I hope that many will read this thread and start to wear helmets without having to be asked.

This would do away with the need for many regs and generally make things safer for everyone.

Jim

Ps: So, you coming out to play?

Uk events are for girls i guess , thats why helmets are generally not used.
Jez, come and do Tay this year, it would be nice to see the mouse in action, ill come and pull you out if your hydraulics are not up to the challenge

Chris

and my daddys bigger than yours... get a grip


have you tried ringing a helmet manufacturer? perhaps ask about how to identify compression damage to the lining of a previously hit helmet?

perhaps we need Neals input on the liability in reference to PPE meeting a minimum standard to be eligable to enter a competition - and specifically if that places the responsibility of "fit for purpose" onto the organisers and how they propose to judge at what point a helmet is beyond its useful life?

Some of the aus comps you see the guy's wearing climbing helmets (or what look like) which is still better than nothing.

I was under the impression that some MSA Scrutineers are trained to do visual checks on helmets thats how they can issue the fit for motorsport sticker's

yep - same thing in the north Jules, but as wearing hats is a matter of choice there, no liability is placed on the organisers (ergo no one gets lumped in court), Cannoe hats are popular because they're light, comms kit fits them easily and they breathe nicely

As said before,

If we do this we can all duck under the binds of the red tape

Thoughts?

againist the speed bans,
Jim
[/quote]
Bet you are take that away & you are Proper F***ed just like DE Germans