Well yesterday was rather tarnished by people/vehicles that are percieved by others to be the same as us.
We came across a river crossing and on approach it appeared that a white Frontera was stuck in the middle of the river as it was going back and forth in the middle. There was also two other vehicles coming down the rock steps. We had to wait for them to clear, and it became evident that the white Frontera wasn't crossing the river, but reversing up it. He eventually came to a halt off to one side, in the river, close to the bank. The reason in doing so was that he could be in a good position to film his friends as they crossed.
Fi pointed out to him that what he was doing was wrong and that he should follow GLASS' guidlines. His attitude was one of agression, and incredible ignorance. He eventually exited the river behind the other two vehicles, mounted the grass bank (off the track), stopped, revved his engine, dumped the clutch and sprayed us with mud, stopped again, revved his engine, dumped the clutch, sprayed us again with mud, then did the same for a third time before tearing off up the track. As we continued in the direction this guy had come form, we came across some very fresh extensive damage to the area around the byeway.
The track was fairly even, but the surrounding peatland obviously looked more fun, so the side of the track was badly rutted and damaged, but by the passing of one or two vehicles at high speed.
A track that had been repaired by GLASS a few months previously had this damage:-

On a woodland track you might expect to see this kind of surface, but this was a surfaced track. Stones and mud were sprayed in all directions. Totally unnecessary damage in my opinion.



Second picture of the same area. Damage to the peat bog at the sides can just be seen.



We saw a few other examples of excessive and unnecessary damage. Unfortunately, I can in some way sympathise with walkers etc who come across this sort of thing.

We met a guy From GLASS on saturday (in Sarn Helen?). Dunno if he saw this, but I don't think he's going to be very happy about it either. I can't say for definite that the vehicles we met earlier were responsible for this or not, but the damage had been gone over very recently, and their irresponsible behaviour makes it at least suspicious.

Finally, if any of you come across a very big bald guy with no neck (or brain cells), in a white Frontera, that is stuck and asks for help, you might consider the above story.


Les.

Les,
I hope you got his registration and reported him to the police (or if they're not interested, local paper) for the damage/dangerous driving. If nothing else it will get the idea across that some of us actually DO care about the lanes.

We're talking of the media here, they'll take the "hooligan off roader destroying the country side" bit and ignore that it come in from another off roader, don't make good reading otherwise

Perhaps we should borrow a white Frontera and get a number plate made up. You can't green-lane without a driving licence.

Chris

Ignorance is bliss eh?

Imagine the to-do if he sprayed mud at a bobble hat or horse rider - national news and another nail in the coffin.

They should be shot at dawn!

I saw an advert in the local Friday Ad, a freebie advertising paper. A company which shall remain nameless is advertising green lane days, proposing taking people out for;

" a hard days green laning in Kent. Attempt lanes that have been classed as impossible! Recovery points and off-road tyres a must".

So, they are encouraging large numbers of paying punters to go out and damage lanes which are clearly not fit to be driven at this time of year. We all know what is liable to happen if they encounter walkers/riders etc. and more importantly, if the press sees the resulting impact on the lanes. Also, simply by advertising, they are bringing the activity to the attention of Joe Public. If I was a local reporter looking to get some controversial column-inches, then I would book as a punter and go out to observe, photograph etc. An editor would be very pleased.

So, is this a group simply out enjoying their right to drive these lanes, or is it a group which is undermining the attempts of responsible bodies e.g. GLASS and LARA which are campaigning to secure the long-term access to green laning.

Opinions?

Do they have an email address? How about sending them a link to the GLASS website?

Chris

The behavior of some people is sickening. I will certianly remember the Frontera and if he turns up stuck in my neck of the woods he'll be staying there

must be something about these Fronteras, mate of mine was called out to recover a friend of his the other night.
Went out on his own (on road tyres) and got himself stuck some where he should not have been, took my mate King hours to get him back to the road!!
Bet he didnt learn any thing from it though!?

Bunch of ignorant idiots

I did think was only i, that noticed more that the usual, "off route" damage to the lanes we used over the weekend !!

A friend took his other half over Sarn Helen on sunday, his first time over for about 6 months,and a local to the area, thread on difflock HERE

Les oh, i hope you have his number, and reported it !!!

Unfortunately I witnessed a similar incident on Houndkirk moor (Peak District) over the weekend whilst I was training my search dog. A couple of trucks kept driving (at a fair pace, forcing walkers to stop) up and down the lane. When I next saw them they were off the lane and driving a small track across the moor (not marked on the map and definately not cleared for traffic). As if this werent bad enough, it looked as if they were out to rip up as much of the moor as they could (wheel spins, hard braking). Unfortunately I couldn't get close enough to see their plates before they shot off.

Just a thought - has anyone found a correlation between lanes featured in magazines, and "extra" damage?

That's not a loaded question, I haven't been laning for ages (usually in the transit ) so have no idea.

I was out sunday and came across a group that had payed to be lead. A group of 15 including the leader who had taken their money. Everyone got a taking to and told they can go laneing for free, they all got a CRAG flyer as well.

The problem with commercial people is they are out to make money and theres no law to stop the size of groups.

Paul

Yes this makes a lot of difference to the amount of use. One mag prints a "Road Book" we came across a group of people using this road book on sunday. Before we met them someone had beed doing doughnuts on a field. Looking at the tyre tracks and the group we came across it looks like it was them, but as we did not catch them in the act we could not prove it. We just give them a talking to pointing out how bad it was to acting like that.

Paul

No word on the Shires night run? how did it go Fridge?

Didn't know there was one on, didn't get an invite

That's because you weren't at the two socials where the Green lanes officer mentioned it

I've no idea to be honest, not heard anything myself but then Mike doesn't "do" e-mail and I haven't got a truck to go in anyway!

Edited to add: Did you mean the previous one a while back? That went really well, everyone enjoyed it even though the lanes driven were quite "tame" the night adds a different dimension to it.

About 8 months ago Mo Murphy and I came across a guy in a Vi*ara using a roadbook and driving like a rally driver. We saw him approch at about 40mph in the opposite direction! Our group of 3 then had to go and passify the owner of the land he'd just driven through. I think lanes need to be seen to be used but, unfortunatly, a growing number of idiots seem to be abusing them. I hate to say it but I think there's an increasingly large irresponsible element. I don't know what we can do about it as they just seem to ignore everything they don't want to hear.

In all fairness we cant have a go at other "brands" as the only people who do these things. some LR drivers do it too.
Ayear or two ago the estate manager of a woodland near to me reported to the Parish council that a Landrover had been stopped by one of his guys in woodland it shouldnt have been.
Now the embarrising thing about this was that the said estate manager is a friend of my dads and my dad is on the Parish council!
The Landrover in question had the name of a club all over it and that club happened to be the sameone as the one i was in!
The driver said that his friend knew the area well but also said that they were lost?
Well if the said friend did indeed know the area he would have known that there were NO Byways there!!
To add insult to injury he then parked outside my house with half the woods still under his truck as the manager came past to tell my dad!!!!!
Had to do a lot of sweet talking that day i can tell you!!

I guess that most people here do not listen to Radio4's The Archers. (An everyday tale of country folk ) There is a story line running at the moment about abuse of the footpaths and bridleways around the village by "Off-Roaders", cars, motorbikes and quads. One farmer has started blocking the lanes (farm access lanes I think) by building mounds of earth at the ends leaving gaps for "walkers, riders and trail bikes"

I can only imagine that this story line is going to have yet further negative influences on the perception of us by countryside users/landowners (who must be the main audience for The Archers) There has been no clarification yet as to whether the lanes in question are footpaths, bidleways or if they have a higher status. I am a little concerned that this story line may be coming from a position of little understanding of the differences on the part of the writers and may end up giving a false impression of ligitimate byway users.

If you have RealPlayer and you do not think it is too sad you can listen to last week's omnibus for the full story.

Chris

I was in the same group as Les and Fiona on Sunday. The Frontera driver was your typical thick thug, not about to be told what to do by anyone, let alone, God forbid, a woman. Fiona had a commendable go at reasoning with him (she suggested looking at the GLASS website before organising a day's laning, for instance) but it was a lost cause - I won't slip into profanities here but you can imagine what our response was.

There was further, recent damage along the track that looked like their tyre patterns. A great shame, as we met some considerate laners that day too.

Mark

Thsi is no way a slight on the vehicle being driven
On Exmoor only a few weeks back a group of R/R where driving around on routes that were on private land, totally oblivious to where they should be.

at xmas we were overtaken by groups of 10 or more M/bikes all going flat out.

it is the person driving not the vehicle that does the damage.

Nicely manufactured by the government run BBC as propoganda for the NERC bill. Happens everytime the B-liar Witch Project wants to get a message across or discredit an organisation or persons. And to top it all, you have to pay for them to do it!

That's why this and every other bill will never work as only the responsible users will take notice of any restrictions.

Hi,

I am new to this forum so HI,

I have been reading this thread with interest as I own both a 110 and a frontera. The idiot in the original post should not be remembered as a "Fronty" driver more as an idiot... If he had been driving a LR/SJ410/Land cruiser whatever, would his actions have been any different? I doubt it. Its him that is the problem not his choice of 4X4.

From reading on a lot of 4X4 Forums, the Fronty gets a lot of bad press, but how many of the people that give it such bad press have actually been out with a group of serious "green lane / Off road " fronty drivers. I am sure you would soon realise that in the majority they have exactly the same goals/aims as any other 4X4 driver.

Every class of 4X4 vehicle has its share of idiots and its share of enthusiasts, and I am sure we can all get along. I have many great days with many different 4X4's.

So please don't condemn Fronty's just because of one post.... next time your out look at some LR drivers, than can be just as bad...

sbs_piper.

Rant over. Cheers

Yes indeed (I'm not ashamed to admit that SWMBO & I listen to the Archers - there I've come out and I feel better for it ).

There have also been a few negative comments about green lane use appearing in Alisdair Mitchell's column in Shooting Times just recently too.

Hi Sbs i dont think anyone on here was "having a go" at him because he was a "Fronty" driver.
And if he was driving a LR i think you would find he would get the same responce!
As i said in a previous post, your adverage "Joe Rambler/ member of the public" labels most 4x4s as LRs or J**ps, they are not fussy they hate us all!
IMO the original poster is doing ALL 4x4s a favour by bringing this to the attention of the "Fronty" people so they may police their own as we in the LR world do?
It is up to ALL 4x4 clubs to "gang" up on indviduals to insure that the public are educated in the knowledge that WE ( clubs)do not find behaviour like this exceptable either.!

Welcome first of all.

I agree fully with your comments above the vehicle is a total irrelevance the driver is.

this site isn't one for we are better than you.
anyoneis welcome to join.

a fronterra/suzuki/mercedes/jeep are all just cars as a L/R is.

please take time to read some of the other stuff on here along with the eventsa being organised and maybe try and get along to some, you'll soon see most here are just the same as evryone else, keen 4x4 owners.

Quite a long piece about the Archers piece on BBC Radio 4's 'feedback' programme too.

Might as well all come out, then - I even listen to the Omnibus edition on a Sunday so I hear the lot twice!

One of the current lead stories is illegal use by off road cars and quads on David Archer's bridleway....currently they are planning a round-the-clock monitor of the route to catch the truck that almost hit a young child and also damaged David's Land Rover. Such programmes have a big following, particularly in urban areas and therefore influence the majority's views on how to manage the countryside.

Strange that the storyline is running at the same time that NERC is in Comittee Stage in the House of Lords.

But just for once, the editorial team were taken to task for 'bias and distasteful story lines' by a number of listeners on the R4 programme 'Feedback' today, including strong condemnation for 'confusing legal and illegal activities'. The Editor claimed that she 'had no access to the parliamentary timetable', by the way, a disgraceful excuse!! However, she also admitted that in one episode next week, the David Archer character will concede that 'Off road clubs work to a code of Practice' [GLASS and CRAG friends please note].

Neil

I was glad to hear that the producers were taken to task on Feedback. Hear it here.

Chris

On a slightly tangential note, it is still possible for greenlaners to get lost. I've done it, on Salisbury Plain and around Bath. I think the crucial differences are in how you drive, and your attitude when challenged. On Salisbury Plain we were stopped by modplod for being off-track (near the Bustard) and we explained how we'd made the mistake (the established track was illegal, the byway wasn't evident on the ground) and trotted off after he'd wiggled his moustache and educated us a little. Near Bath, I've not been challenged but I drove to minimise the impact on the ground as I worked out where I was and how to get back.

I think we should all support the 'naming and shaming' of offenders and show that the responsible 4x4 community distances itself from such people.

I think the subject of naming and shaming is workable. The only problem is what you 'say'.
If you saw a vehicle doing something illegal, you could take a picture, use photoshop or similar to remove the number plate, then post the picture in a gallery called, for instance 'interesting greenlane pictures'.
You could say I saw this vehicle on 'the ridgeway last Sunday' and make no ther comment, You would have recorded him/her doing wahtever they were doing, but are making no comment or judgement on what's occurring. Of course, the owner might then post a reply saying 'Oi, that was me', but then I doubt it somehow.



Les.

If you've got a photo of them doing something illegal, I see no problem with posting it with their number plate visible. As far as I'm aware (I'm not a lawyer, though) the danger is only in making accusations for which you have no clear proof. As to posting the photo without any accusation, while that quite possibly sidesteps libel issues, it has a danger all of it's own - it would not be obvious to anyone unfamiliar with the forum that we were condemning the actions depicted. Quite possibly we would appear to be glorifying them.

I see what you mean Geoff, the RA and other bodies could just link to the pictures 'flower them up' and save themselves a lot of work in making us look bad. What a pity theses stubborn individuals won't discuss issues with us.


Les.

Les - beat them at their own game. If you set up "policing" teams to help look after what are in the end your interests too then you will have a common denominator with the "greenies" and will show them that off roaders can also be responsible "users" of green lanes. See my last post on "Make a real difference".

You guys have to change your strategy before public opinion becomes ireversable.

Adam

Correct me if I'm wrong Les. I assumed that the only reason you mentioned the marque was in an effort to indentify the individual, I don't hear any 5'8" thick set/fat people complaining. I think the plot has been lost a bit.

As soon as we start indentifyng the fact that we need better policing rather than just blanket BANS on everything the better. I nearly died after being stabbed by a bunch of druggies with kitchen & stanley knives but I was incensed to hear about the hunting knife ban, it doesn't solve the problem. Hello, anyone in the government listening...............didn't think so.

I would have posted this on the Frontera forum but I don't have time today, feel free.

None of you have picked up on the fact (when talking of "policing" the lanes) that if OTHER users "misbehaved" you could report them too!
If you saw a Rambler or Biker misusing a lane then they could be photographed too? ...

Oiy! get it right! they're an "off-road motorcycle enthusiast", a Biker is someone who rides all year round, rebuilds and builds his own motorcycles, gets pisht at motorcycle rallies et cetera, not a poncy multi-coloured-armour-and pointy-chin-helmet wearing sunday rider

<cough>

but yeah agree with what you say

Niall

Indeed, my mentioning the make of vehicle was to post as much information concerning him - not to have a go at Frontera drivers. I referred to Frontera websites because he had a Fronterasport web address on his motor. The devation from what is after all just a request to identify someone, is really bizarre. One of the posters says he has come across frequent prejudice concerning his vehicle type. I have to say I've never heard of people insulting them. It's normally Suzuki's, and they, if any have more right to complain about that.
I'm getting close to nailing this moron now, so hopefully the paranoia will end. Fortunately a lot of help and information has come from Frontera owners themselves, who underneath all of this seem to be as concerned as the rest of us about this matter.


Les.

You are starting to sound like DI Burnside or someone from The Sweeney now Les. "I'M LES HENSON AND I'VE NOT HAD MY TEA!!"

Chris

LMFAO as mentioned white frontera drivers attitude was one of aggression didnt seem that way from my boyfriends point of view (the boy with the video camera) as he saw it the lady mentioned was rather rude and had a bad attuide herself, think this was due to our vehicles being fronteras. as for damage to the area there is no prof that it was any off them. get a grip on yourselfs.

No issue with Fronteras (jeeps, toyotas, gwagons, unimogs, izuzu, or whatever) here but you'll have read that. Gosh, guess I'll now have offended the Dacia drivers for not mentioning Dusters.

Anyway, thanks for joining and posting. Do you share the concerns of GLASS, CRAG and many of the 4x4 community that our access to unsurfaced roads is being undermined? Seems whatever your friend was or wasn't doing if fellow 4x4 drivers thought it inappropriate then I'm sure some of the anti's would have had much stronger views had they seen it. Does that not bother you?

It's always difficult to approach a complete stranger and offer criticism of their behaviour without appearing to have 'an attitude problem'. Personally I think it's quite brave to have the courage to do such a thing, and I know that what was said was meant genuinely.

True, we can't assume for sure that it was your friends' work that damaged those tracks, but their behaviour made us jump to that conclusion. Like LR90 says, if fellow 4x4 drivers like us came to that conclusion what are the rambler brigade going to assume? We are all judged by even the simplest of our actions, it's human nature.

BTW, I also drive a Toyota Hilux pickup so honestly no prejudice against other vehicles.

regards

Mark J.

The Lady concerned is a Highways agency officer, and your boy(?)friend was being an idiot. How can you be nice while telling someone they are an idiot ? If he thinks he's so right, then how come he's making idiot remarks inside the protection of a Yahoo group. If he thinks he's right, then he should be here explaining himself and not you?

Les.

L!!!

Who is D.I Burnside?


Les.

LR should REALLY NOT paint their vehicles a high gloss finish when there is not a straight panel anywhere on the vehicle