Hi, I thought I'd start a thread on my tube notcher project. I've got several cages to fabricate in the next 2 or 3 years, one cage/chassis combo (currently underway), and later some complete custom fabricated full tube chassis.
I figured with that much tube work ahead I'd invest in a decent tube notcher. The obvious candidates being the JD2 and the Pro-tools notchers:
JD2: http://www.jd2.com/
Pro-tools: http://www.pro-tools.com/hsn500.htm
While investigating which to buy, I came across various complaints from people using these notchers and a couple of interesting threads:
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=440311
http://www.extremefabricator.com/BB/viewtopic.php?t=35
They got me thinking about making a more versatile & rigid milling-cutter type notcher (rather than the hole-saw type), which could be made for roughly the same cost as the hole-saw type.
The price for a commercial cutter-type notcher is 3500 US Dollars (plus shipping, duty etc...). I figured I could make one up for roughly 10% of this (IN GBP), so my target budget is 350 GBP. This price is in the same ballpark as buying the JD2 or Protools and having it shipped to the UK, but I will hopefully end up with a much better notcher.
I'll update this thread as I go.
Al.
Full Version: Tube Notcher Build.
After a bit of digging, I found options for the relevant parts were available, and the only potentially disasterously expensive bit is the cutters themselves.
Most of my tubing will be around 2" diameter, so I obviously need a 2 inch cutter. For these tools to work well you need a 'roughing' end-mill cutter. So after a quick search on ebay, I bought a couple of new cutters from the States (there isn't much larger stuff on the UK ebay). I paid around 25 GBP for the pair of cutters - a hell of a lot less than the regular list price:
(How do I get this to appear on the page???)
(Edit: right click on the image, copy its url and use it between img tags.)
I figured the 1.25" shank diameter would give me a good range of cutters if I use a collet type chuck.
Now the bits I need are:
* Motor (1.5 or 2 HP) and compatible gearbox of the correct ratio to give the right cutter speed - obviously the cutter speed relative to the work depends on the radius of the cutter, so I may use an electronic speed control to vary the motor speed for different cutter diameters (i.e. for different tube sizes). The gearing will be fixed.
* Steel baseplate - something beefy.
* Pillow bearing block between gearbox and cutter to support the cutting loads.
* Compound/cross-slide vice/tabel to mount the work and move it relative to the cutter.
* Chuck or something to hold the cutter.
That's it - not much to it really. I'm not worried about the motor/drive, I need to sort the chuck (3-jaw / collet?) and bearing block first. The rest is easy.
Al.
Most of my tubing will be around 2" diameter, so I obviously need a 2 inch cutter. For these tools to work well you need a 'roughing' end-mill cutter. So after a quick search on ebay, I bought a couple of new cutters from the States (there isn't much larger stuff on the UK ebay). I paid around 25 GBP for the pair of cutters - a hell of a lot less than the regular list price:
(How do I get this to appear on the page???)
(Edit: right click on the image, copy its url and use it between img tags.)
I figured the 1.25" shank diameter would give me a good range of cutters if I use a collet type chuck.
Now the bits I need are:
* Motor (1.5 or 2 HP) and compatible gearbox of the correct ratio to give the right cutter speed - obviously the cutter speed relative to the work depends on the radius of the cutter, so I may use an electronic speed control to vary the motor speed for different cutter diameters (i.e. for different tube sizes). The gearing will be fixed.
* Steel baseplate - something beefy.
* Pillow bearing block between gearbox and cutter to support the cutting loads.
* Compound/cross-slide vice/tabel to mount the work and move it relative to the cutter.
* Chuck or something to hold the cutter.
That's it - not much to it really. I'm not worried about the motor/drive, I need to sort the chuck (3-jaw / collet?) and bearing block first. The rest is easy.
Al.
When Nige and I did our cages we simply used a 2" holesaw to notch the tube. You have to take it slow but it does the job.
We did try using a 2" cutter in the milling machine, but the problem we had was we simply couldnt clamp the tubing tightly enough such that when the cutter bit it picked the tube up and it leapt out of the clamps at head height!
Most of the notchers I've seen grind the mouth rather than cut it since theres less risk of it picking it up!
If you're cheap and time isnt an issue, a holesaw works fine, so long as you've got some means of adjusting to get the correct angles - we used Nige's milling mahcine which allows the head to be rotated to the required angle.
Jon
We did try using a 2" cutter in the milling machine, but the problem we had was we simply couldnt clamp the tubing tightly enough such that when the cutter bit it picked the tube up and it leapt out of the clamps at head height!
Most of the notchers I've seen grind the mouth rather than cut it since theres less risk of it picking it up!
If you're cheap and time isnt an issue, a holesaw works fine, so long as you've got some means of adjusting to get the correct angles - we used Nige's milling mahcine which allows the head to be rotated to the required angle.
Jon
i just used my trusty grinder, and a gas axe on some bits 
Hi guys, i need to make a good fit between the notched tube and the one it mates with, so the old chop saw method is out for me - too much 'filling' to do with the welder.
The hole-saw type notchers have problems with off-angle cuts. They're fine at 90 degrees, but the further away you go, the less effective they are. The milling type notchers don't care about the angle.
It seems you get what you pay for with notchers - some people do fine with 'Harbor Freight' cheapies and never have a problem, others (possibly more demanding users) complain about slop, vibration, innacuracy and difficulty with cutting at higher angles.
I figure I can build a cutter type for roughly the price of a hole-saw type, so it's got to be worth a try.
Also, this method is gonna save me some valuable garage time (I hope!), which is priceless...
Jon - people use milling cutter types all the time, I guess it was just a problem with the way you clamped it? It's just a milling operation - you should be able to cut the tube rather than move it! What type of cutter were you using? What was it held in - I don't quite get the 'clamps at head height' bit? Sadly, time is a BIG issue for me - my project time is severely limited due to living in a different country. Loved the cage build thread by the way, maybe we should get that put in here (or a copy of it?).
White90 - yeah there's lots of threads on notchers over at Pirate, the machine in the second post in that thread is what I'm aiming for. The JMR unit at the end is 500 USD - once you add shipping and duty, it's a lot more than I'm hoping to pay for this and it's still a tube notcher...
Al.
The hole-saw type notchers have problems with off-angle cuts. They're fine at 90 degrees, but the further away you go, the less effective they are. The milling type notchers don't care about the angle.
It seems you get what you pay for with notchers - some people do fine with 'Harbor Freight' cheapies and never have a problem, others (possibly more demanding users) complain about slop, vibration, innacuracy and difficulty with cutting at higher angles.
I figure I can build a cutter type for roughly the price of a hole-saw type, so it's got to be worth a try.
Also, this method is gonna save me some valuable garage time (I hope!), which is priceless...
Jon - people use milling cutter types all the time, I guess it was just a problem with the way you clamped it? It's just a milling operation - you should be able to cut the tube rather than move it! What type of cutter were you using? What was it held in - I don't quite get the 'clamps at head height' bit? Sadly, time is a BIG issue for me - my project time is severely limited due to living in a different country. Loved the cage build thread by the way, maybe we should get that put in here (or a copy of it?).
White90 - yeah there's lots of threads on notchers over at Pirate, the machine in the second post in that thread is what I'm aiming for. The JMR unit at the end is 500 USD - once you add shipping and duty, it's a lot more than I'm hoping to pay for this and it's still a tube notcher...
Al.
Have you asked Northernchris what he uses?
what did Andy use for Moglite?
A holesaw seems a good idea to me being cheap and easy to replace.
what did Andy use for Moglite?
A holesaw seems a good idea to me being cheap and easy to replace.
QUOTE (white90 @ Feb 21 2006, 11:44 AM) 
Have you asked Northernchris what he uses?
what did Andy use for Moglite?
A holesaw seems a good idea to me being cheap and easy to replace.
what did Andy use for Moglite?
A holesaw seems a good idea to me being cheap and easy to replace.
1. Nope. There's a lot of people building cages out there...
2. A grinder / chop saw and a few rolls of Mig wire...
3. I've got 2 milling cutters - brand new. I expect them to outlast my cage building needs. i bought them for 25 quid, the pair. That's cheap enough for me if I ever need more.
Al.
just cos u use a grinder doesn't mean u'll have big gaps to weld up, if its a one off cage u're building then a few cutting and grinding wheels is a whole lot cheaper and less agro than building a machine to do it imho.
i've just rebuilt my cage and the biggest gaps i had were 2mm max, most of it was touching.
i've just rebuilt my cage and the biggest gaps i had were 2mm max, most of it was touching.
QUOTE (Tonk @ Feb 21 2006, 04:28 PM)
just cos u use a grinder doesn't mean u'll have big gaps to weld up, if its a one off cage u're building then a few cutting and grinding wheels is a whole lot cheaper and less agro than building a machine to do it imho.
i've just rebuilt my cage and the biggest gaps i had were 2mm max, most of it was touching.
i've just rebuilt my cage and the biggest gaps i had were 2mm max, most of it was touching.
Tonk - lots of cage work on the horizon...
It's really not that big of a deal. There's hardly anything in it. There's no doubt that a curved cutter makes a better fit than cutting curves with a grinder, plus its a lot quicker and time is a real issue. The better the fit you want with a grinder, the longer you have to spend on each joint.
Al.
i didn't realise u were going into cage making
i agree that a perfect cutter will be better in the long run, i remade my cage in about a week of evenings work and a weekend, i didn't remake the front and mid mounts though.
can u not just use a mill for the cutter u want to use rather than make a machine?
i agree that a perfect cutter will be better in the long run, i remade my cage in about a week of evenings work and a weekend, i didn't remake the front and mid mounts though.
can u not just use a mill for the cutter u want to use rather than make a machine?
QUOTE (Tonk @ Feb 21 2006, 04:41 PM)
i didn't realise u were going into cage making
Well, nothing commercial - but there are a few in the works...
Enough volume to make a tool worthwhile.QUOTE
can u not just use a mill for the cutter u want to use rather than make a machine?
Yup. Got a mill I can have?
I don't wanna start lugging LONG bits of cage around just to get the tube notched. There's really nothing to this notcher - just get a cross-slide vice and bolt/weld it to the baseplate, motor & gears drive a chuck via a bearing block and that's it - there's really not much to it!
I'm still comparing 'candidate' parts & searching a bit, but it shouldn't be a big deal.
Al.
QUOTE (Astro_Al @ Feb 21 2006, 03:51 PM)
Yup. Got a mill I can have?
Al.
Al.
well i've got one at me works, only gets used by me for home jobs
When I made my roll cage I used a floor standing linisher/belt sander, which at one end it has a clamp with various angel adjustments, and depth, and if you need to fishmouth larger or smaller size diameter pipe then you just buy a smaller or larger roller (respectively) which the belt wraps around.
Its a handy piece of kit,
Hope this helps
Tom
I will try and find a link
Its a handy piece of kit,
Hope this helps
Tom
I will try and find a link
QUOTE (The new Guy @ Feb 21 2006, 05:38 PM)
When I made my roll cage I used a floor standing linisher/belt sander, which at one end it has a clamp with various angel adjustments, and depth, and if you need to fishmouth larger or smaller size diameter pipe then you just buy a smaller or larger roller (respectively) which the belt wraps around.
Its a handy piece of kit,
Hope this helps
Tom
I will try and find a link
Its a handy piece of kit,
Hope this helps
Tom
I will try and find a link
I've seen that used too, sounds like a good solution.
QUOTE (MogLite @ Feb 21 2006, 06:55 PM)
I've seen that used too, sounds like a good solution.
Yeah me too - they seem to work well by all accounts. Any idea of cost?
How many notches in what size steel do you get out of a single abrasive?
Al.
Cost:
For a new one you are prob looking at £400-£600, but you could get one much cheaper second hand.
The belts don’t cost that much, building my role cage using CDS 2inch 3.2mm wall thickness, I happily notched everything that needed notching on one belt, it didn’t last long after that though.
Tom
Still looking for link
For a new one you are prob looking at £400-£600, but you could get one much cheaper second hand.
The belts don’t cost that much, building my role cage using CDS 2inch 3.2mm wall thickness, I happily notched everything that needed notching on one belt, it didn’t last long after that though.
Tom
Still looking for link
QUOTE (The new Guy @ Feb 21 2006, 07:20 PM)
Ok, you mean the one thats 2 grand plus vat, or the one thats 3 grand plus vat?...
QUOTE (Astro_Al @ Feb 21 2006, 06:26 PM)
Ok, you mean the one thats 2 grand plus vat, or the one thats 3 grand plus vat?...
I swear my boss said £600 I will ask him how much and where from?
he’s on holiday till Saturday I will ask him then.
I might be telling pork pies lol it could well be £6000
I am almost sure its not
Tom
am I being stupid, where does it tell you the price of them
Tom
Tom
[quote name='Astro_Al' date='Feb 21 2006, 10:50 AM' post='40036']
1. Nope. There's a lot of people building cages out there...
Yep there is lots but are they doing it for their own motors or for a living? It seems people enter into making cages with out to much for thought!! Have you ever seen a cage fail through incorrect welding? When you build your own the buck stops with yourself !!! BUT when you start just quickly throwing them together for other people you are the person responsible for THEIR safety................
P.S
I use an almi notching grinder itro £2000+vat
Chris
1. Nope. There's a lot of people building cages out there...
Yep there is lots but are they doing it for their own motors or for a living? It seems people enter into making cages with out to much for thought!! Have you ever seen a cage fail through incorrect welding? When you build your own the buck stops with yourself !!! BUT when you start just quickly throwing them together for other people you are the person responsible for THEIR safety................
P.S
I use an almi notching grinder itro £2000+vat
Chris
QUOTE
I use an almi notching grinder itro £2000+vat
yep I am being stupid
, ignore me.*hiding in the corner*
Tom
Yes Chris, it wasn't a dig, I have SO many sources of info - both amateur and professional - that I didn't feel the need to directly contact each and every one I've ever heard of, besides, I've never seen your work, which automatically puts you a lot further down my list of contacts than many others. Don't take it personally. It's a big planet, and there's a lot going on out there.
For what it's worth, I've seen a LOT of structures fail for a LOT of reasons. Cars, helicopters, aircraft, spacecraft... I have a background in structural mechanics, impact survivability, crashworthiness the application of continuum mechanics models in these fields, finite element analysis and smoothed particle hydrodynamics simulations of impacts, and yes, before you ask this includes studying real life data, not only analysis of damaged structures, but actually performing ALL kinds of impacts and analysing the results - I assure you this is over a VERY wide spectrum of structure types and impact types and velocities (as wide as it gets, in fact!).
I appreciate you may have a genuine concern that I am fabricating cages for other people without any level of fabrication skills whatsoever. Of course I respect the seriousness of this point - possibly more than most given the previous paragraph. So, while I wouldn't normally feel the need to justify myself to you, I will happily state that these cages are for my vehicles only, and I do not have zero fabrication skills. Other than that, you are free to think what you like.
I'd really like to keep this thread on the TECH if possible folks. It's getting a 'bit' over complex. If there are any outstanding issues after reading the above, anyone is free to email or PM me to discuss anything further.
I've investigated the options for a tube notcher, I've stated my reasons for choosing the method I've chosen. I thought it would be worthwhile documenting the build in case it's useful for anyone else.
If anyone has any good tech to contribute or relevant points they think I may have missed HAVING READ WHAT I'VE POSTED SO FAR, then please contribute.
No worries Tom - I looked at a few sander notchers in the first place - I thought maybe yours was a cheaper version which could do the job
. Never mind!
Thanks Al.
For what it's worth, I've seen a LOT of structures fail for a LOT of reasons. Cars, helicopters, aircraft, spacecraft... I have a background in structural mechanics, impact survivability, crashworthiness the application of continuum mechanics models in these fields, finite element analysis and smoothed particle hydrodynamics simulations of impacts, and yes, before you ask this includes studying real life data, not only analysis of damaged structures, but actually performing ALL kinds of impacts and analysing the results - I assure you this is over a VERY wide spectrum of structure types and impact types and velocities (as wide as it gets, in fact!).
I appreciate you may have a genuine concern that I am fabricating cages for other people without any level of fabrication skills whatsoever. Of course I respect the seriousness of this point - possibly more than most given the previous paragraph. So, while I wouldn't normally feel the need to justify myself to you, I will happily state that these cages are for my vehicles only, and I do not have zero fabrication skills. Other than that, you are free to think what you like.
I'd really like to keep this thread on the TECH if possible folks. It's getting a 'bit' over complex. If there are any outstanding issues after reading the above, anyone is free to email or PM me to discuss anything further.
I've investigated the options for a tube notcher, I've stated my reasons for choosing the method I've chosen. I thought it would be worthwhile documenting the build in case it's useful for anyone else.
If anyone has any good tech to contribute or relevant points they think I may have missed HAVING READ WHAT I'VE POSTED SO FAR, then please contribute.
No worries Tom - I looked at a few sander notchers in the first place - I thought maybe yours was a cheaper version which could do the job
. Never mind!Thanks Al.
Al
I will ask my boss about the belt notcher, and PM you with what he says.
I thought he said sub £1000 mark but I might be wrong.
Tom
I will ask my boss about the belt notcher, and PM you with what he says.
I thought he said sub £1000 mark but I might be wrong.
Tom
Why not just use a deep hole saw? The jug for holding the tube & drill is pretty easy to fabricate.
If you wanted to spend a bit more money - use a broaching cutter. Both are MUCH cheaper than a slot-drill for a mill.
Here is the kind of thing I mean:
http://www.blindchickenracing.com/Tools/tools.htm
If you wanted to spend a bit more money - use a broaching cutter. Both are MUCH cheaper than a slot-drill for a mill.
Here is the kind of thing I mean:
http://www.blindchickenracing.com/Tools/tools.htm
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