I am asking as I have broken 2 wheels in the last 4 weeks. Well I have not broken them as such, just the welding has cracked, same place on both wheels. I was told by the maker "we are afraid that it looks like the whole set has come to the end of its life"

So what would most people say the life of a wheel is?

Paul

PS I am not going to say what make of wheel it is or how long they say the life span is.

Hmmm, guessing they're not OE LR wheels, so that leaves us with the normal Modulars / 8-Spokes / Matt Lee and I can't imagine anyone being heartbroken over a dead 8-spoke or modular given the price of new ones...

Ahem.

Out of interest what did you do to break them?

Green Laning. Thats all I do in the 110.

Paul

Blimey That must be some extreme green lanes!

I had the white 8 spokes on my Rangie for about 5 years. Other than the paint wearing off on the bead and making a couple of the tyres go flat quite regularly, they were fine, certainly no sign of welds falling off

As far as I know, they are still in active service on another forum users Rangie.

Another mate has had his about 8 years... look a bit ropey but are still in one piece

What has gotten me is the fact that the welding has cracked in the same place on both wheels. I done mean almost the same place, but the same place.

Paul

I don't think there would be a life on a wheel rim, although I suppose hard use would eventually make them fail. I would expect a rim designed to be used on a Land Rover would be equal to the task though - knowing how they get used. Even on a Farm they would have the tough life equivalent to green lane use.
Is the weld ok? is it the weld that has cracked or where the weld joins the steel of the rim (normal place for cracks). I would expect them to crack in the event of an accident or similar situation, but greenlaning they should be able to handle.


Les.

Its the HAZ (Heat Affcted Zone) that has craked. Both times its been the front wheel. The drivers side now the other side.

Paul

Paul, if this is cheapo 8 spokes then as fridge says I'm not sure many of here would be too worried but nonetheless a pic to tell us where to look for early signs of failure on ours might be nice?

It's not the cheapo 8 spoke, it's a more expensive bling type wheel.

As per my post on LRA, you have reason to be huffed off, but no real recourse. It's an aftermarket wheel of unique design and the manufacturer can claim a lifespan. You might get new wheels free if you were to take the matter up with the Advertising Standards Council or other Consumer Protection authority as I have seen no disclaimer on lifespan in advertising etc., but that does not mean your views would be upheld in either authority, and unless the lifespan being claimed is less than five years, it doesn't seem entirely unreasonable. In any event, all litigation does is make things more expensive and enrich lawyers - neither of which are desirable....

Not 8 spokes, but 5 spokes. The only way I knew that were cracked was a flat tyre.

Paul

Its not work fighting it, but its a shame. They have offered me a new set at trade price, but are they going to crack as well?

Paul

why not just get them re-welded?

then perhaps you can have all the joints done at once on all the wheels- sure it wouldn't cost too much.

they might be interested in part paying for that instead of supplying a set at trade!

Well, I'm going to stick my hand up and say Paul swapped the wheels with me !, I have nothing to hide so I don't mind owning up

I wanted zero offset so I could fit them on the Discovery and Paul wanted greater for his 110, it was mentioned in passing when I picked up the bumper from his place,

These were rolled edge ones (newer), , I bought them secondhand and that was around 2 years ago and the ones I got from Paul lipped (older) IIRC,

Now Paul may not be, well isn't pointing the finger....but may be having regrets, but I swapped them in good faith as far as I knew they were fine, a bit...well quite rusty on the surface and needed painting, and they hadn't been on my truck since the Beardy one biatched for me,and sat in the Garage for months, as the Hybid has my other set on with Simex's and I got fed up of swapping them around as it was mainly driven to events anyway,

if you look on my site they were on the truck for a fair while with no problems, so why are they now causing problems......

So I'd publically like to say Sorry to Paul, and say if I knew there was a problem with them I would'nt have exchanged and I can only say...sorry for all the hassle your having...

I'd like to think I'm an honest chap and would never do anyone over for a quick buck.........

he say's opening himself up for abuse...

I am not pointing the finger at you Les. I was not going to say I had them off of you, I have no regets swapping them at all. They are what I wanted.

Just trying to work out if they should be good for a few more years thats all. I think they might not be up to a 110s weight. For some thing is designed for a hard life and for racing. For them both to crack in the same place on the same spoke is a bit bad. I have spoken to the man who made the bumper you had off of me and he said its not the frist time he knowed them to crack.

Theres no need to say sorry, its not your fault.

Paul

I will weld them up. Not a problem as I can do them. But I just wanted to know how long people would expect them to last.

Paul

Les, change the title under your avatar quick

I have some new, boxed white eight spokes in -10 offset (from memory) if that helps. They sit the tyres 40mm further out than standard.

I got a load of them made special order for my RR but don't use it so much now.

Is it worth seeing, after having them re-welded and minus tyres /lead weights etc if they are balanced or if theres an imbalance that could lead to this?

Thats what I was thinking. But I will weld them and see. They take a lot to balance anyway as they are fitted with Bronco Dirt Devils. With a bit of luck when I have ground out the weld and rewelded it it should be about the same.

Paul

That was down to me puching a 3 inch hole in one and wondering why we could'nt get the bead to re seat no matter how much air we through at it....

Once we cleaned of the Burnworthy slime all was revealed

Can you measure from the rim face to the centre face and tell me what it is? The ones I have are 110mm from rim to wheel centre.

Paul

Paul, these rims usually have a good reputation and seem to servive well when treated harshly so it does seem strange. The only thing I can think is that they've suffered a very hard life, possibly racing. I'd say the new ones should be fine....

Thats my only concern. Do I want to rist a lot more £££££ on new ones for them to do the same again? Or do I go for Wolf rims and a less offset. But a long lasting wheel.

Paul

Chelsea Tractor had the same issue with some he had. They were the old type that used (I understand) 8-spoke rims. Jon was led to believe that the new (rolled edge) rims were made in-house and would not suffer the same fault. Evidently they do.

Chris

I think that the nature of thw wheel makes it prone to this type of failure.

A small number of small spokes = high stress concentrations at the spoke / rim interface.

On a wheel rim this stress will fluctuate from tension to compression each time the wheel rotates.

Add to this the hoop stress in the rim and you have a ripe cocktail for a fatigue failure.

How does fatigue manifest itself?

Yup, you got it - cracks. (Sorry if your Grandma is now sucking an egg )

I would grind back the weld (make sure you get right to the root of the crack) and re weld them. If you can do this yourself then it wont cost much and you can get away with doing it a good few times. Must be a better option than discarding them now.

If it makes you feel better, we repair fatigue cracks in bridges all the time

Nobody has mentioned it as far as I can see but I assume we might be talking about a wheel which might have Mach in the name?

If so there has been talk of failures in the past, no direct experience of that particular wheel but if they break it seems to slightly defeat the point of buying a supposedly heavy duty wheel

I have only ever seen one wheel cracked up in normal use and it was a very very old (like 30+ years) Land Rover steel one, I know of many standard wheels on older vehicles that have been used off road all their life (and I am talking about off road as in the days when this country had NO roads at all and therefore everything was off road all the time!) and never had problems. I wouldn't say it should have a "life" as such as long as terminal corrosion did not set in but I have seen some awesomely rusty Defender steels which have still been ok.

the ones on my series 1 have been on there since at least 1987 and they were not new. but then they are not special expensive ones

What gets me most is as I have said. Its on the same spoke on the wheels. Looking from the inside if the wheel with the valve at the top. Its the spoke to the right of the valve. So why the same spoke on both wheels?

Paul

PS If anyone wants to see the cracks send me a PM.

Mach 5's - Not all they're cracked up to be! Ha ha!

I had the exact same problem on a set I had on a car recently. They were the pre-rolled edge ones. I called Matt Lee and spoke to the man himself. He told me they stopped making these rims (pre-rolled edge) approx 4 years ago and that they were not willing to provide any sort of manufacturer's warranty against materials or workmanship as 4 years was (and I quote verbatim) "Beyond the intended working life of the rim".

WTF???????


Mach 5's are some of the higher priced wheels out there - more than £100 each and they're not supposed to last even 4 years???

And what about that statement - the man himself saying that they don't stand by their workmanship.

Er, yeah, righto Matt. I'll be buying another set then... NOT!

steel wheels should not have a 'service life' as such, and therefore a manufacturer certainly can't say they've just 'worn out' if its a weldment that has failed i'd say it's a manufacturing defect and you'll have a bit of comeback under the sale of goods act. only problem is you've got to prove the wheel hasn't been abused or used outside its design parameters... which is all but impossible...

all welded structures contain cracks, and in theory it is possible to determine a fatigue life for it.. but a steel wheel designed for off-road use should be over engineered to accomodate this, and all but remove it from the equation.

the fact that it has failed in the same place on two different wheels must point to a manufacturing defect.. and the manufacturer should be interested to know why it failed, so they can improve their product... just saying 'they've worn out' is a cop out, and poor customer service...

i reckon you're not going to win this one, so i'd scrap them, buy a set of wolf wheels, or even disco steels (pretty strong) and either get them modified by someone who knows how to weld... or live with the reduced offset.

and make sure you tell everyone not to buy steel rims from mr Lee....

Must admit I'm beginning to feel much more content with my cheapo 8 spokes, bent but not broken, though modulars still look nice.

that is outrageous... and he's supposed to be an engineer.... maybe they should stamp a 'best before' date on the rim... so we know when they are going to fail, and bin them the week before...

I'll try and do it tomorrow. If Discovery steels are +30 offset they are -10, if the Disco steels are -30 they are +10, I can't remember which way round it is now.

Ok thanks.

Paul

WTF?

That is unbelievable for what is supposed to be a premium product

time to chuck away the ratty old alloys on my 4 y o Discovery then I suppose

From another forum



Well if I dont weld them up at lease I can find what has caused them to crack.

Paul

Can I suggest a conversation with VOSA???
If a vehicle has a defect which makes it potentialy life threatening, the manufacturer MUST recall the vehicle and replace said faulty parts FOC.

I would daresay, they would look at modified parts in the same way....??

VOSA recalls

this thread is worthless without pics.

Daan

Has someone emailed and asked them? If not then I will.

Chris

I have just sent an email to VOSA, but if you know someone there then please go ahead and ask.

Paul

I agree. It just doesn't seem acceptible.

I'm a little lost on what he is basing 'working life' on.

Is it based on a time window? - From date of manufacture? Or date or first use? If so, why - there is no property of steel which causes it to fall apart after, say, 4 years. If this is the case, the date should be marked on each rim, and sold as such... but in the end that's just rubbish, so it can't be that.

The only reasonable conclusion is that it is based on some kind of fatigue life. But without knowing how the wheel is used, how can he make a flat statement like '4 years is too long'? Would the fatigue life of a daily farm working vehicle be the same as a fortnightly green-laner? No.

The whole thing stinks like horse-manure of a non-technically backed decision not to support failed products. Plenty of wheels out there survive far rougher use for decades. It's simply an inferior product at a superior price.

I say, do what you can to make him accountable for his workmanship - God knows he charges for it.

Al.

Pass the buck once the money is in the Bank
I've had grey modulars for over 4years they have been used in all situations and when I recently had a tyre reseated as crud had broken the bead, the inside was like new no rust or cracks also the inside of the rims are in A1 condition.
Mach5s had history or air leaks then I saw Les's punctured one
they just aren't up to the job.
and to then not warranty them is very poor.

Will, did you hear that from the manufacturer of the rims in question?

I'm not sure that this statement is entirely accurate, although that is only my opinion based on my own experience of the setS that I have seen in need of replacing.

It is my opinion that they should not be repaired, for the record.

The rims in question are for off road use only don't forget.... and not technically approved for road use. AFAIK they are not DOT, TUV etc etc tested, so I doubt VOSA would be that interested in a rim that technically shouldn't be used on the road....




Ian

I had the same problem with a set that i had which were new rolled edge ones. The quality of the zinc plating was terrible as well. I moaned when i received them and didnt pay full money for them in the end. About a year later they cracked and i decided to use other rims instead.

Would never buy them again although i still think they look great.

No, I do not know anyone there, I just did not want to be potentially the 15th email this morning...

Chris

i'd kind of been thinking along those lines... so if VOSA are not the right people then trading standards must be... as Astro Al said (and he's a proper engineer) steel does not have any properties that would allow anyone to forcast a service life, so it must be down to poor workmanship.... or processing the material in an unsuitable manner, such as excessive cold-working.... (am i right Al?)

it certainly is shocking service from a suposedly well respected manufacturer... perhaps he's worried that if he takes one back, he'll open the floodgates and have hundreds coming back...

I should think he is, that is the sort of thing that could bring a company down.

Chris

Well I am not a metallurgist but it sounds

like a fundamental design or manufacturing technique problem to me. It can happen - I remember reading a story about the early RR Rostyle wheels being withdrawn due to fatigue cracking. Can't recall off hand what LR did to sort the problem out but there are many wheels in service 25-30 years old no problems.

Wheels here, like in other places with similar roads like Oz, take a hell of a pounding in ON-road use where the roads are unsurfaced and you are hammering across pot holes etc - far more fatiguing than "normal" off road use I would say, never heard of any problems and many vehicles run bog standard white 8 spokes. I thought about a set of Mach's a couple of years back but decided it was a lot of money for something that will still going to go rusty and there were also the "stories".... glad I didn't now!!!

The excuse about a wheel having a service life is just utter drivel especially four years. The only possible justification for defining a service life would be in a competition environment like off road racing and I don't even know how you would define that - hours run, number of landings .... ? some things are given a service life in the aviation world (e.g. I think control cables in a Cessna are lifed at about 5 years regardless of hours flown) but that is hugely over-cautious on safety grounds - the set I saw that came out of Dad's Cessna looked like new.