As it says who would or wouldn't wear helmets and harnesses.


The pros and cons.

Std seat belts hard to get on when on unlevel ground.

Harnesses slighty slower to use but can be put on when on side slopes etc.


Helmets,dampen noise ,hard to hear co driver BUT with any half decent open face helmet you can fit ear pieces for the radios.


If we where running to MSA regs you would need atleast 8" clearance around your head in case of it impacting with inner cage/bodywork and that IS when wearing a helmet.


Chris

Chris, I would have no problem wearing a helmet already have 4 point harneses.

I think it is going to go that way,i dont see why people dont want to wear them,if they complain about the cost,well in the great scheme of things it is not alot of money compared to the cost of our challange trucks.



Chris

however strapping an extra kilo of weight to the top of your head is going to do no good to your neck and spine particularly in shock load situations, better to wear something like a tank drivers lid like the padded WW2 things that will at least stop you from head-butting the vehicle, yet won't strain your neck

I see cost as an issue making entry to the sport more difficult but can see the merits in adopting MSA regs. We seem to be seeing more rolls on events now as they get tougher and I'm personally less keen on competing in my 90 which doesn't have a cage whatever the regs might let me get away with. Harnesses are not expensive but difficult to live with on a DD but I wonder how many cages would pass MSA?

It will more that likley go that way,, following MSA regs, BUT where does it stop,, if it goes along the lines of stage rally regs, add in the cost of approved helmets (£400), seats,(£400) harness (£220), overalls, (£450) plumbed in fire fighters,(£250) etc, etc
Then that will be followed by FIA regs, ie, change the lot every 5 years (cost of aprox £2k+ etc)

Am sure none of us want to skimp on our own safety, but in this day and age, its only a matter of time, before we are told, the above has to be done !!

Approved helmet £150 upwards, harness £90 upwards, seats £300 pr pr fire system club level £120



As for tank helmet what drugs are you smoking?????????????Sure they use them in WRC,F1 etc

We are planning to use helmets in MogLite
el-cheapo motoX lids are the current favourite
The thinking behind this, is a cheap (I assume polycarb) will be light
It will protect against bumping your head on the cage in a crash, with a full cage, I think more would be overkill.

The ability to wire them for sound is important, also with no windscreen/doors we need some kind of goggles/face-protection from flying stones/mud/ramblers.

Sparco harneses are ready to go in

Seats are again el-cheapo Vauxhall seats, for comfort and cost. Also race seats provide useless rear visability for challenge style events.
The ability to tilt them forward for access to the space behind is important for me too.

I've tried to get the rest as safe as I can - albeit on a budget, fireproof bulkheads, electrical kill switches etc.

I would like a plumbed in extinguisher - I'm used to driving oil-burners - petrol is scary

Chris ?? tank helmet ??

my prices quoted were approximate, for decent gear,, NOT cheap crap stuff, having just refitted one of the hire cars to current FIA spec

obviously smoking better quality stuff that you are,

Having a friends daughter break her neck because the inertial weight of a helmet in a accident, I have first hand knowledge thank you

I would consider wearing a helmet, regardless of what the regs are. Even a lightweight cycling helmet can prevent serious injury. Having had several rollovers in my trials buggys, I am very aware of how it is physically impossible to prevent your head from being thrown about by the motion of the roll. I had a serious roll once, and if I had not been wearing a helmet (open face m/cycle), I may have suffered a serious injury. The force with which my helmet hit the rollcage was enough to stun me momentarily.

A lot depends on vehicle design as to what, if anything your head is likely to come into contact with. In a Land Rover, the window/doorframe/post is the most likely providing you are well strapped in and you have a suitable high back seat and headrest.

I have had previous rollovers without a helmet where I have been fortunate not to have hit my head so hard.

My choice would be full harness and lightweight helmet.

The sport may not need to go to MSA regs so soon, if competitors wore helmets and harnesses.

The more injuries that occur as a result of roll overs, the more likely the sport will be pushed towards MSA regs.

I haven't competed in a winch challenge, but I used to regularly compete in AWDC class 1 modified trials for which there are specific MSA regs regarding vehicle design etc.


Regards,
Diff

To be fair the worst case with the msa is that you would have to prep yourself and your car to compsafari spec.

Ie:

Approved rollcage,
min. of 3 point harnesses,
helmet to the relavent british standard.

At the end of the day it is only going to be classed as a clubmans event, no need for full international event rules is there.

IMHO Most (if not all) of the injuries i've seen at off road events wouldn't have happened, if the level of vehicle prep was higher.



Are you sure the above is correct. last time i looked it was 50mm above top of helmet, and 50mm to the outside of your shoulder.

The MSA approved cages, would these include exo cages or only internal and is a simple hoop and backstays sufficient?

MSA rules adopted by the AWDC for 4x4 crosscountry vehicles are different to those for high speed events. IF MSA rules were to be applied to winch challenges, in my opinion, they are likely to be along the lines of the MSA regs adopted for modified trialling. These regs are sensible and for a roll cage would be for internal or external, two hoops, two straight backstays and a diagonal in the rear hoop or very close to it. Minimum material is blue band steam pipe. Dirtydiesel's dimensions regarding helmet clearance are correct for these MSA regs.

Regards,

Diff

I would like to see a minimum of drawing no. Q36 in the msa blue book.

But i bielieve the current min. for awdc speed events is drawing no. Q6a.

A simple rear hoop and stays is just not enough.

I'd like to see helmets and harnesses for the driver, not sure about the biatch though

1, It most cases...well in our case anyway I'm out of the vechicle watching/directing, where there is a possibility of a roll, ready to put my substatial weight on the light side

2, With all the activity required it might get slightly warm to say the least for the biatch

With punches becoming more challenging I think something is required

on to Scutineering......it's there for a reason and "flak hat" on....if it fails it fails, not a case of get it done for next time but you can compete .....lots of things arn't and still the same next event

OK most things, arn't safety related and no way would they pass if it was, but rules is rules !

In many cases the reason for a fail is not a criticak safety issue, the normal route is, take it away and try to fix it, ask other competitors for help.

Comes back after best endeavours still not right, we would then say,

1. Safety criticakl, sorry fail.

2. Not critical, fix it for next time. Chief will then talk to eligibility scrutineer who will see this vehicle next time, if not fixed next time then don't get to play.

This works for us in racing, but in off road the eligibility scrutineer may not exist and the club scrutineers change.

The way forward is then a log book, maybe not in the currently accepted sense but must be signed at each event by scrutineer, any problems are noted and next time scrutineer sees it and checks.

Couldn't be fairer but competitors don't like log books.

Will they remember to bring the log book, we had a competitor at Brands Hatch the other week who actually forgot to bring his car with him.

Its been suggested that this be moved to the Int' forum which seems sensible to me as not everyone uses this section.

So if thats alright folks....

Will

Intresting thread Chris.....

Have had to wear helmets on several occasions abroad and in the UK whilist competing, and two major things have raised there head as a result...

After wearing a helmet for two days competing i actually find that i am NOT in pain from muslce aches etc...
I think this is because i am not trying to constantly stop my head hitting the the roof and vehicle side the whole time, thus not stressing my neck and shoulder muslces as frequently....

So for this it is a plus point

The other thing that raised it's head is that, give someone a helmet, gloves and a car and all of a sudden they think there Nigel Mansell !!!!

Seen it plenty.......

This sport is changing, I have been doing this along time and it is getting very competitve.....

Bad thing???? Who knows??

But i think you'll have difficulty getting some to wear helmets in the UK, They will feel they are having to suffer to others inability to judge terrian.........Or .........Drive

Some events state that you must wear a helmet etc, but not what type or whether or not it's approved.

I think this is a sensible approach as any helmet is better than no helmet, but i also understand that this in itself will cause problems in this litagation strewn land

Answer ? Not sure, but Helmets defiantly get my thumbs up

As for the recent roll overs etc.... Very sad and i hope all our well, but we have brought it upon ourselves by having one day competitive events..........At two days events most are not so heavy footed because the vehicle MUST last two whole days..........Nuff said

The poor competitors that unfortautely rolled must also take some blame for getting it and their judgement wrong, I strongly hope this acts as as reallity check for everyone

I also strongly believe that a little of what started the challenge scene has been lost ie: The Challenge, Team spirit and the will to help others.

Anyway.....Where was i ?????

Helmets, Yeh there great

Jim

One thing i forgot to add is that as a driver YOU do not HAVE to do ANYTHING you feel is dangerous......

Or is that the problem? People are scared to say NO!!!!!

I race so have no issue with wearing a helmet

Having said that I would not wear me £350 Peltor helmet for challenging I would go for a cheaper one but would fit a radio intercom or Blue tooth to it.

I have in the past got MSA approved helmets for as little a £50 when I was first racing....

The cage is no issue either as my cages are always built to MAS/ARC guide lines anyway for my own safety....

Extinguishers £25 for a AFFF so that's no hard ship as I carry them in the challenge truck anyway....

Plumed in is not a requirement in comp safari I do have them as a last resort in the racers but not the challenge truck and I have no planes to fit them.

Harnesses all my competitive trucks have them again I prefer them over normal ones as you never know when you could get it all wrong..

I can't see the FIA getting too involved at this stage and its not racing...

What about reducing the number of roll-overs rather than just making it safer? Take away all of a competitors points if he rolls his truck - which will give him some incentive to be careful. Or take a £500 deposit and keep if he rolls.

Chris

Both my kids wear the bike hats when they are off road on play days and that is there choice to. my 6 year old can fall asleep in the back of the 110 when her dad is have great fun. So i wont complane if i have to as well

We don't roll the trucks deliberately

HOW CAN IT BE CHEAP CRAP STUFF IF IT IS APPROVED BY THE MSA?????????????????

Mini that must have been a freak incident there are always going to be situations where a helmet doesnt help.

Just check the blue book i am dead sure it is more than 2 " .

I appreciate that... but you would think a whole lot harder about what you were doing if you knew it was going to cost you all your points - I do not know what would constitute rolled mind you. Mo has a picture of my 90 with two wheels off the ground on one side while leaning against a bank. Were it not for the bank I would have been right over - Sandbag, in the passenger seat, was not impressed! Just a thought.

Chris

Brian Hartley (Club offroad Aka Bulldog, etc....) has been Taking points of teams for roll overs for somer time now......

It is a rule i HATE

Who in there right mind would roll a car on purpose? For what gain?

Just to smash your car up???????

It ALWAYS leads to arguments of "Is it a roll over, No it's got two wheels on the ground"

Or "i can't have rolled i was in a ditch"

I was nearly penalised for a roll over at last years bulldog, but as we ALL pointed out, I drove in and drove out without the assitance of a winch.........

Whether or not i had only two wheels on the ground is inmaterial, I WAS IN CONTROL.....(ish )

So was that a roll over????

I rest my case.......

Added to this the fact i was AGAIN accused of a roll over the previous years on the night section!!!!!!!!!

Turned out the marshall saw a jeep that was a similair colour to the SV roll and blamed me

W*nker!

Soon put him straight (Lots and lots of friends and witness's )

People just need to get off the throttle, and accept that accidents happen.

I HATE speed restrictions at events as i personally believe that they, again, cause more problems than they solve.......BUT, if this is what takes, then so be it.....

I think we need to look back at events of old and how they got round the problem of noive or inexperienced drivers biting of more than they could chew.......

They used to have prologues, where the skill of the vehicle team was tested and then the start order was arranged from this....

This usaully meant that the top teams got a way from the inexperienced leaving the lower teams to do things at there pace..........

Of course accidents still happened, but thats motorsport

I don't want to be wrapped in cotton wool and told to drive only on the dry bits!

I want to have some fun

So less rules and less punches,

There getting boring and very difficult to marshal, thus leading to accidents as we have seen........

More super sections........with punches, equals more control and less incidents......

I hope

Jim

Ps: Helmets are great

Sorry mate your wrong, blue book says;

top of cage min. of 50mm above top of helmet,

Side of cage min. of 200mm from center line of body

Section Q(safety criteria) drawing No. Q31.

Well said that man!(jim that is)

I've got a msa approved helmet (with this years sticker on it no less) that only cost me £45.


And to continue jims ravings post

What a s**t idea, it wouldn't stop people from rolling. just penalise people that are having a bad enough day.




I personally would like to see an event comprised soley of special stages, each one having a DNF time, but to add a little more thought into it there should 5 or so punches on each stage that are worth negative time.

eg. you complete the section in 22mins and in that time you've also collected 2 punches each worth -5 mins
a time of 12 mins is then entered on your score sheet.

The team with the lowest time wins.

This would be a lot easier to marshal !


But then again the organisers would only go an ban portals.

Unfortunately it's not, I know a few people who have suffered neck injuries due to crash helmets, ranging from the serious of death to riplash, the neck isn't designed for a kilo to two kilo's being strapped to your head. This is why night pilots with Night Vision Google's are required to remove their NVG, store them securely, and then eject from an aircraft, as they snap their neck or at best very severe riplash during ejection otherwise

Dirty

Is that not for saloon cars mate?

Anyway wouldnt it make more sense then?


Think jim has been the pub

Mini

I am not talking about high "G" loads here i thought we were on a landrover forum!!! Lets just agree to disagree.

Is it grapes or chocs you like mate

chocolate anyday

There's nothing that superseeds it in section H,

I wouldn't get too worried, it is a minimum requirement, nothing to stop you making the cage bigger.

How small must your cab be for a helmet not to fit inside the cage.

(hang on I'm only 5'9") now I can see why there would be a issue

I race with helmet at first yes they can be a pain but your neck will adapt so much so that's I got rear ended by a omega on the M3 and got concusion but no whiplash work that out casualty had issues with it also.

Trouble is I find you can feel indestructible with a cage and harness and Helmet on which could lead to more rolls etc.

But Jim and Northenchris I am in agreement with full.

(but I have not competed in the top level challenges yet but have in the top level comp safari)

The cost of preparing for new helmets and harnesses is going to be minimal only £350 for two helmets and a two sets of harnesses.

Does anyone know if 2" harnesses have been band yet for 3" ones..

The Fire suit thing.....

The BORC overall British champion races in old overalls

I only wear cheep karting ones for ease there is absolutely no reason for anyone to worry about that being imposed..

MSA Harnesses for racing must be FIA approved and in date as of Jan this year.

This has banned 2" for racing.

I suspect overalls will soon be timed out, i. e. ten year life.

you can always wear a neck-brace below your helmet, although they do restict head movement when you could do with out being restricted....

Go the whole hog, get a HANS device.

It will restrict your movement though and you should use the proper harnesses.

I tested a copy of that thing in race condition

Its comfortable as when in a straight line but going round a corner forget it.....

and getting in and out is a nightmare..

My mate was marketing them and said its well cheep its only £400 where as the Hans it is about £1700 ish

that will go down well

As you say great for racing and works in high speed crashes, but not too good for a challenge event winch bitch.

Could be fun to watch though and will reduce the number of punches done.

The winch bitch could get round it though by not riding in the vehicle and running everywhere with it, could produce some Olympic athletes that way.

MM

My bitch could do with the exercise.... (good job the wife's not on the forum)

my other winch bitch is too short I would end up runing him over

Come on Jules ! You could make life significantly safer for him then - Get him to wear a helmet to protect his head and stick a flag on the helmet to make him more visible

So what is the general concensus??? YES or NO to wearing helmets.

YES, YES ,YES


YES, YES, YES

AND

YES!

Yeah - what he said

As above.

I'm easy happy to be safe there is no cost on your life..

but it need to be all or nothing

(all wear hats or none)

If buying a helmet it is prudent to check it is Ok and to MSA regs Snell 2000 or better or SFI 31.1 31.2. or relevant BS.

We get a lot of motorcycle helmets sold as suitable for racing but not to Blue Book standard.

Check the Blue Book before buying, you won't get past scrutineering if its not right.