Well, I finished fitting a new rear floor to my 300tdi Disco, the weekend before last (pig of a job in the heat)........ drove it to work (10mins), then driving it back again (about 5 mins) and I have one of those 'brown trouser moments' as my front near-side wheel-bearing lets go along a dual carriageway at about 70mph...... no warning, just a sudden swerve from one lane to the other - fortunately the road was quiet!!!

FIFTEEN MINUTES before something else broke. FIFTEEN FREAKIN' MINUTES!!!

Anyway....... started stripping the hub on saturday (to the wife's sarcastic comments about spending ANOTHER weekend working on the thing)........ only to find that the bearing's dry as a bone - not a hint of grease anywhere, and the inner race on the outer bearing has welded itself to the stub axle, so I can't get it, or the hub, off.

Anyone got any 'silver bullet' solutions to this problem? I've tried winding up my biggest hub puller to the point where it's getting scary, and even left it like that overnight, but no joy. I tried applying a bit of heat with my blow-lamp, but it ran out of gas I tried cracking the bearing race with a chisel, but just managed to blunt the chisel (cos the race is hardened steel)......... I'm starting to run out of ideas.

Is a blow-lamp going to have enough 'oomph' or do I need to find a friendly oxy-acetaline owner?

The only thing I can think of now is to remove the whole hub/brake-disk/swivel-housing and take it to a garage (or the tip!)....... but binning the whole assembly is gonna be costly.

Desperately,

Dunk

tricky, good old angle grinder isn't gonna get in there and you can't get in to undo the stub axle either.
You might try drilling the race a bunch of times. it may well then break up, you could even drill the stub axle I guess.
It does sound like the whole hub assembly is going to have to come off so you can get the driveshaft out of the way in any case.
Once off you might be able to abuse the stub axle and free the race.
Might be a cost vs time thing.
Final suggestion, if you can move the race about 1cm off you could probably get a hacksaw down the back and cut the stub axle off?
Or take to hub assembly with hub to a garage for some tender loving care from an oxy kit?

I'd thought about trying to drill it, but I reckon I'll just end up with a load of blunt/broken drill bits to go with my blunt chisel!!!

A couple of good sharp tugs on the hub should dislodge the oil seal in the back of the hub. The bearing is bigger than the seal, thats why the hub appears to be stuck.
Once you have the hub off you will be able to get at the bearing with a grinder. Flatten it off as much as you can and as close as you can to the stub axle (without touching the stub axle!!!) and then a good twatting with a chisel and hammer should see it fall off.
Treat your stub axle to a bit of rubbing with some fine emery cloth, or if it's completely knackered, stick a new one on.

Hope this helps.

Dan

is there room for a dremel cutting disc to get in there? (OT vheap dremels were being sold at biolling for £ 5 !!!). If the brearing carrier is case heardened, then it maybe possible to use a chisel on it once you have gone through that. Wear eye protection as it may fly when stplig.

Dan........ it's the inner race of the OUTER bearing thats stuck, not the INNER bearing, so I'd have to drive the outer race out of the hub (backwards) to get it past the inner one(!) - not sure if that makes sense with all those inner and outers!!

I've done plenty of wheel bearings before and only had an inner bearing do this before, which was easier, as you can get the hub off and grind/cut the stuck race off the stub axle, but as the hub won't come off at the mo, I can't get to the stuck race

Hmmmmm...... hadn't thought of that - I'll have a look tonight - if I can at least cut a notch in the edge of the race, it might be enough for me to crack/shatter it with a chisel and big 'ammer

Thanks

Dunk

Ahhh... gotcha! sorry, my post was completely unhelpful then

Hmmm... Seems to me you have reached the pinicle of wheel bearing buggered-ness! Good luck!

Tried battering it inwards with a punch to get it moving at all? Or grind a notch and persuade it round and round? Might make it worse rather than better but worth a try I hope.

If you have a welder, you could try welding a big hot bead onto the stuck race. This will get a lot of heat onto the race very quickly, and may free it up enough for the puller to do its job. I have never tried this method for this particular job, but it is probably worth it as a last resort.

Make sure you cover the stub axle threads to avoid splatter.

Regards,

Diff

Turbocharger...... I tried rotating it with the chisel (thats how I blunted it) but got nowhere - haven't tried knocking it inwards, though - might help me get rid of some of my pent-up rage at the very least!!!

Diff...... good thinking - I used a similar technique on a siezed SIII transfer-box filler plug...... the head had been mushed trying to undo it (it's a taper thread & had been overtightened), so I welded a new bolt head to the plug, only to find that the heat from welding had made it almost finger-tight and it came out easily!!! Probably worked so well cos the plug was steel, but the casing was ally - something to do with different rates of expansion....... anyway, I'll give that a go with the stick welder, rather that the MIG as it produces more heat, and I can wind the amps up further for better penetration which is always a good thing

I had this problem once on a series motor - after messing around trying to get it off for a couple of hours and getting nowhere - I cut straight through the whole lot with a 9-inch disc cutter.
Bearing steel is very hard as you no doubt know, so chisels, and normal drill bits are not going to do anything. A titanium bit might do it, but the inner race is going to be friction welded to the stub axle. You could be drilling all day and still not manage to free it. There's a likelyhood that as the tip of the drill bit gets near to the centre - the thinner wall may deflect the bit and snap it. It looks like new hub, stub axle, and wheel bearing I'm afraid Maybe a hub and stub from a breakers?


Les.

Les..... I'm not QUITE ready to quit yet, but just in case plans 'B', 'C' and 'D' fail....... where did you cut? did you cut straight through the shaft on the CV joint as well?

Anyone know of any decent LR breakers in the Pboro/Cambs area???

Dunk

Unless I was stuck out in the jungle or desert I wouldn't even try to recover the stub axle as it would have seen enough heat to seriously compromise its strength, and at any rate the inner bearing race would have spun on the stub axle ,wearing it undersize.
When you do finally put it all back together, be sure to remove the inner oil seal from the stub axle, fit a proper oil seal to the hub and let the hub be lubricated by oil from the swivel housing instead of grease as previously.
Bill.

Dunk,

If you want to save the hub from damage, then you are going to need heat and lots of it. If you haven’t got gas gear, then a good alternative is to carefully run two or three passes of mig (160amp) around the exposed inner of the bearing and pull it off whilst its red hot. If you allow it to cool it will get tighter due to shrinkage. If you can get a deepish cut with a dremel then the you can use the cooling shrinkage from the mig to crack it.


Best of luck



Ian

Thanks Ian...... I think I'm gonna give the welder a go..... with my luck, I'll probably end up welding the bearing, stub axle and CV shaft together!!!!

Thanks to all who've offered advice - keep them coming if you've got any other voodoo I can try!!!

I'm going to have a crack at it on tuesday night as the wife's off on a 3-day residential course, so no earache

I'll let you know how it goes. Is there a smiley with fingers-crossed????

Just to let you know this happened to me on my 110. I had the wheel bearing replaced and was told the stub axel was not that good. The new bearing lasted one day of green laning. So I am looking for another axel as the swivel houseing need doing before long as well.

Paul

These problems were virtually unheard of in the days of oil leaking but oil lubricated series 1,2 and 3 wheel bearings.
Bill.

Can you put it back together and drive?

I have several friends and myself who have had rear bearings go. The person who drove 1 mile after event resorted to angle grinder through whole disc/hub/stub to get it off. Obviously not ideal and then a lot more parts need relacing.

Myself and JST have both had bearings go but we ended up driving on them for 30/60 miles. They obviously got so trashed, they disintegrated on removal and then we just either cleaned the stub up or replaced stub and new bearings. Obviously rear is a little easier and obviously you want to be careful driving on dodgy bearing but it might work.

Hope you get it sorted.

Can I just add to the arguements for welding a bead around the race. This is common practice in agricultural engineering where changing bearings is common and usually involves seizures to shafts. The other method involves a BIG chisel and a BF Hammer but demands some skill and not a little nerve. I can never seem to do it while my brother had whap em off like nothing.

Undo the seal retainer bolts and swivel pins. The whole assembly should come off the driveshaft. You can then sit indoors and do it on the coffee table while watching Eastenders.


I have a quid that says you cut it to bits with an agle grinder!


Les.

Dan - cant beleive you said that! i was going to add that i had heard driving on kanckered bearings until they completely fell apart was supposed to work!

Les..... you must be a telepath or something - anyone who knows me will tell you I have a special relationship with my angle-grinder..... it's usually the first tool I go for when the 'proper' one fails!!!

Dan & James........ after the brown-trouser moment at 70mph there's NO WAY I'm driving it till it's all fixed!!!..... saying that, I did drive a 90 for a few days after a bearing went, wondering 'what's that screeching noise?' when I finally took the hub apart the bearing rollers fell out all over the place - D'oh!

swivel pin top and bottom, or chalice bolts followed by the swivel pin will enable you to get the drive shaft and CV out of the way.

you will also have all the bits that will be scrap or you can save in an 'easy' to manage lump which you can attack in a vice.

Les may well be right here - all scrap.

I have had this in the past, one option is to remove the whole assemble and soak in Diesel, sometimes this can get into it and just help when you next "Twack" it.

The other way I have got around this is to remove the flange, nuts and wasshers so you can see the outer race, then VERY CAREFULLY using a 1mm cutting disc cut a mark intio the race, preferably in the middle, so that there is race metal above and below the cut. Repeat in 2 other areas so you have 3 points of a triangle

Then get a Centre punch, and drill out say a solid lump of rod 3/4 or 1inch with a hole so you can shove the centre punch up.

Then you can now place the point of the centre punch into the cut and whack the thing, try to rotate it one way - then the other..the reason to have the punch in the tube is to give the assemble "Mass" and the ability for you to really be able to whack it missing delicate pinkies.

Use a HEAVY hammer, dead blow or good heavy lump hammer etc,

It might just move - once it does continue as above...

Elase break out the "Henson Adjuster"

Nige

Cheers guys...... gonna have a bash (literally) when I get home from work tonight - I'll let you all know how I get on, to give you a giggle (if I don't report back it's cos I've mashed all my fingers in the process)

My plan of action is to start with the MIG approach as I've already got a puller wound up tight on it, so the application of heat might get it moving....... failing that I think a dremel on the edge of the race accompanied by a big hammer & chisel..... and finally it'll be remove the whole shebang and angle-grind it to within an inch of it's life, while still trying to salvage as much as possible

It's gonna be an interesting evening - better have lots of 'milk of amnesia' to hand

Dunk

Right....... just spent the last 3 hrs on it and I'm quitting for beer & food - progress update #1:

Heating it with the MIG didn't budge it.

It thought my dremel bits were very tasty as it chewed it's way through them - hitting it with a chisel (in all directions) didn't work either.

In the end I've taken the swivel pins out (and the swivel housing oil seal) and taken the whole 'hub' assembly off the chrome ball.

Now it's time for a beer or 3, then I'll have another bash tomorrow night......... my next plan, is to try to support the assembly under the lip of the hub (ie between the brake disk and the hub lip), then find some way of tw@tt1ng the end of the stub axle without mushing it, to try to drive the stub+swivel-housing downwards to separate them from the brake-disk+hub - I reckon I need the world's biggest copper-faced mallet!!

Apologies for the gratuitous use of smilies but that illustrates the emotional roller-coaster ride that has been this evening!!!

Dunk

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Les.

^^^ wot he said



sounds like its gonna take so much to shift it your gonna kill the rest anyway

Rather sounds like even if you do get it apart its scrap but you could try MIG PLUS cooling. We had a bu**ered drive flange on a large RR generator and seperated that in the end (after several days and differing appoaches) with hydraulic puller, gas axe to heat the flange and free flowing freon to cool the shaft.

If you don't have freon just blow CO2 or even hose cold water down the inside of the stub axle while MIGing the bearing. Might just give you the temp differential you need to get it appart.

i've had this before, resign yourself to buying a new stub axle, yours will be damaged and it wont be of any use... don't ask me how i know this....

whole front axle assemblys can be found at a sensible price, someone on here was selling some for around £140 recently... if you went for that route you'd end up with loads of other spare parts....

Well..... having slept on it (not literlly - it's too lumpy!)...... I think I'm probably gonna have to give Les his quid and take the grinder to it - might have a last ditch bash with a hammer now it's on the bench, but I'm not optimistic.

As for cutting it, I'm thinking of cutting between the hub and the brake disk - I don't mind sacrificing the hub and the stub axle, but I'd like to preserve the brake disk and the swivel housing - mainly because losing the disk means I'll have to replace BOTH sides, and I don't think I can face stripping the other side just yet (though it IS on the cards before that side collapses too)

Watch this space.......

Dunk

can you post a photo of what you are trying to remove?

Mmmm Water and Welder that sounds like lots of fun!!

What about attacking the bolts that hold the stub axle on from inside the hub assembly (pitman arm thingy), you might save the hub assembly and the hub and just lose the stub axle?
If you have a dremel you could cut the excess of and then try drilling out the remains. sounds a crap job, but I think trying to save the pitman arm bit should be high on your list. A new hub is about £40, stub axle about £20 or something, I'm not sure how easy it will be to get a new pitman thingy...
FRC4320 - stub axle
FRC6139 - hub
FTC3308 - swivel pin housing right hand
FTC3309 - " " " left hand

for reference, although there are quite a few varients on all those, but for pricing up it might be worthwhile

Now that you have the hub etc off, you may be able to take it to someone with oxy cutting gear. They should be able to cut the stubaxle and outer bearing off to enable you to remove the hub from what is left of the stub axle. That way you will only have to replace the stub axle (and bearings).
If you have a 'big' arc welder, you can try cutting it yourself using some small rods.
I have a 200 amp arc welder which if turned up to max, can be used for cutting if used with thin 1.6mm welding rods. It is very messy, will use a fair few rods and spits a fair bit of molten metal about, but might save the hub.

Looks like you are getting closer and closer to cutting the whole lot up!

Regards,

Diff

Good idea re- the oxy cutting Diff. Never thought of that one. I have oxy gear...................................


Les.

Hmmmm....... oxy might be an option, but I think for sheer gratuitous satisfaction I might angle-grind it anyway..... "Take THAT ya frickin' Bar-Stool!!! Ha-HAAAAAA!!!!"

I can order up a new stub-axle & hub from Paddocks and get it delivered in time for the weekend when I can re-build....... what's the story with the bronze bush in the stub axle (I know the Def stub has them, not sure about the Disco hub)........ is there a quick and easy way to press it in? wonder if I can reverse my hi-lift jack???

A 300tdI defender stub axle has got a roller bearing and a brass bush thingy IIRC. Just pressed mine in by hand (and suitable drift/vice etc) when I did it a few years ago...

If its a 300tdi hub then I've got a second hand one arround the workshop you can have for £25. I had to buy the entire swivel assembly + shafts and CV + hub recently although I only needed the swivel housing. If you want it that's no problem.

Will..... thanks for the offer - I really appreciate it, but I've just placed an order with Paddocks..... wish I'd read your post first!!! Never mind.

Anyway....... here's the final update in this saga...... I managed to get the hub supported in my old workmate, and set about bashing seven bells out of the end of the stub axle to try to free the bearing (I figured if I'm gonna sacrifice it anyway, then why worry about mushing the end of it).......

Repeated battering with a large lump-hammer made absolutely no difference - this puppy was STUCK!.

In the end, I resorted to the angle grinder and chopped the hub off the brake-disk....... only to find that it STILL wouldn't go over the frickin' bearing race - AAAARGH!!!!........ so now I hack straight down the side of the stub axle with the grinder (what the hell, I've already destroyed the hub, so another cut straight down ain't gonna make much difference)....... managed to chip off enough of the race to get the hub over it and then just un-bolt the stub from the swivel-housing. Finally!

I took a couple of 'before and after' piccies with my phone - I'll post them tomorrow if they're any good.

So..... in conclusion, a £10 bearing collapsing is now costing me the best part of £150!! (although that does include optional extras - I'm replacing the swivel pins & bearing while it's all in bits)

The bearing race is still firmly stuck to the stub axle, even though a third of it has been chopped off - but I'm claiming victory. If I feel in the mood I might do some 'forensic investigation' on it sometime to find out just HOW badly it welded itself to the stub.

Finally, a BIG thanks to everyone for your suggestions - I'll confess I didn't try them all - I just don't have the patience!!!

Dunk

PS - My other Disco has now developed a ticking sound coming from the front passenger's wheel (and in time with the wheel)..... checked it for stones, etc, with no sign...... I'm thinking maybe the CV joint is on it's way out (there's a squeaking too) - is ticking a tell-tale sign? Think I need a stiff drink

Before:



And After:

Now there's evidence of an angry man!


Les.

those bearings sure were running dry!

Yeah, and if I ever see the previous owner again I'm gonna feed him the damn stub axle!!!

Big end first

Ivan