Righto Guys, I'm not satisfied with the electrics in my garage. Running my welder on full blast, amongst other things, blows the trip switch (locked away in another building, dammit). It gets pretty dangerous being plunged into darkness in the middle of an 'operation' sometimes, and I need full power for my cage welding. Plus I've been acquiring tools at an alarming rate, most of which cannot be run simultaneously (like the air comp switching itself on while I'm using a different tool and blowing the circuit). So I need to fix it. I also need more lights too (= more power).

I guess the best thing is to keep the circuit I've got and use it just for lights and low power stuff - grinder etc, and rig up a completely separate circuit for heavy stuff (all single phase, mostly 3HP or equiv) - like the welder, air compressor, lathe, plasma, band saw... Currently I run a plasma with integrated air comp, but now I have decent air I could run a 'proper' plasma and increase my cut depth accordingly . I've labelled all the plugs which is a massive help when constantly unplugging/replugging stuff. Ideally I would just be able to have everything plugged in all the time.

Losses through the crappy plug circuit to my welder are causing me loss of penetration. If I had a girlfriend, I feel sure she would have left me by now...

I know NOTHING about electrics. Can someone tell me in a 'Ringo Star Reads: Thomas The Tank Engine' stylie exactly what to rig up - I'm talking wire sizes, plug types etc. I guess I need some really thick cable - there is a run of maybe 100 feet to the trip switches etc.

Jez had some good advice about using 'blue plugs' or something last time he was round, but I must confess I need a link or something to know what he's on about... What type of connectors have the lowest resistance?

Is there any danger when using 2 separate supplies/circuits in the same room?

Cheers, I dunno what I'm doing here at all... Al.

I guess Les Brock is your man for this

Right,

I need some basic information

Size if the incoming supply(and earthing arrangement type), , length of run from the supply point to the garage, what cable you intend to run

ie ......

Steel wire Armoured (SWA) Reccomended

Pvc/Pvc

PVC Conduit etc

max load required ?

and I'll work out the supply cable size for you, taking into acount current requirments and voltage drop etc

Generally for the local circuits

its as follows :-

Lighting = 1.0mm'(6 Amp )/1.5mm'(10 Amp)
Sockets = 2.5mm'
16 Amp Sockets = 2.5mm'
32 Amp sockets = 6.0mm'

.....not taking into acount thermal constaints/lengh of run and volt drop etc...

Normal domestic sockets are only rated to 13 Amps, so your welder etc will require a 16 Amp (blue socket) or if its a biggy 32 Amp (Red Socket)

RCD protection is required for any socket outlet which has the potential to be used outside (these are UK BS 7671 Reg)

Oh before we go any further.....Is this for installation in the UK ?, if it is it falls under Part P of the Building Regulations

quite at work then!!! Mr Brock




















Whooops,,, yes i'm at home ok back to work..... now't to see here

I'm talking work, at work, so I'm working

Al,

just get three phase put in- it'll be worth it in the end- only costs £800 or so to get installed and you'll have enough power for anything then.

Thanks very much guys.

Pugwash - I think you might be right, it's an option I'd thought about... Problem is, it's not my garage (belongs to my father, so not too bad). It may be possible, I'll do some asking...

Dumbass Q: if I did put 3 phase in (and it'd at least save me spending money on converting the lathe to single phase), how do I run single phase stuff - like all the lights and grinders and, well, everything I've got...? Can you just tap off a single phase circut from the 3 phase supply and have 2 sets of sockets? Apart from the lathe, everything I have is single phase, so I'm not sure of the worth/expense of this idea? Is it dangerous running both in one space?

Also, is 3 phase available everywhere? I.e. am I assured of being able to install it?

Les - sounds like you have some useful numbers!

Yes, this garage is in the UK. What do the building regs mean in real terms? The garage is supplied by a Mill which is a listed building, so I guess I have to be careful here (didn't want to make this too easy, eh?!).

Sounds a bit wishy washy, but max load would be whatever I can get - frankly I'd buy a plasma according to the power available. I suppose a max situation would be:

Lighting/sundry = 0.5kW
3 HP compressor = 2.5kW
Medium duty CNC table and PC (on the DIY wish list) = 0.5kW to 1kW
Plasma = 3kW +++ ? Size depends on what I can have really, more?...

The problem with kit like this (apart from the cost) is that it all needs to be running at once...

I can't get more data until I'm back in the UK (Sept), I suppose the best method (since the main building is rented out to someone else) would be to get an entirely separate supply coming in, just for the garage. Is this comparable in cost to putting a 3 phase supply in? Are these supplies put in by whoever is the electricity supplier for the building? Or do you just get a private leccy bloke to come and install it all and hook up to the grid? Sorry, so many Q's.

So I can price up parts, is there a website with the 'red' type sockets etc? Can't see the point in going for blue and limiting it if the money is similar...? Also for the cable prices per metre (the big stuff).

I suppose I can just put an RCD on the incoming supply, regardless of its capacity? Safe is good.

Thanks again for any help. Al.

Where in the UK are you going to be ?

Seem to remember you mentioning Minchinhampton sometime ?

Part P is only applicable to Houses so does not affect you if its commercial

3 phase is available most places the only place it can get sketchy is out in the sticks on overhead supplies on the end of a line

You install a 3 phase distribution board with single pole MCB's for single phase supplies and 3 pole fopr 3 phase

The maximum supply will depend on the maximum you can take from where you intend to take the feed from ?

Its no good wanting a 63 Amp supply if the maximum size circuit from the source is 32 Amp ?


A new metered supply from the local supply Authority (MEB, SWEB etc) can only be installed by them and by any "competent" person after the meter

If you are coming from an exsisting supply again any competent person can install it...but it needs to be tested to ensure compliance with BS7671 (IEE Wiring Regulations)

the type of RCD protection is govened by the earthing arrangment

Ie

TT requires both 100 Ma RCD (fixed equiment)and 30 Ma (socket outlets)
TN-CS and TN-S only require 30 Ma RCD on the Sockets

Les - that's some kind of spooky memory you've got there!

In fact my father has a place in Minchinhampton, but also owns this Mill which is near Winchester, Hants.

I'll try to find out from the leccy company whether 3 phase is possible, and a cost. Or an extra single phase feed straight to the garage, if possible. Ok, it's not a house, so that's good with the Regs.

Earth... I'll try to find out. Any ideas what those acronyms stand for and if there is any easy way to figure out what its got???

Either way it sounds like I'd need the services of someone 'proper' - anyone know anyone good local to that area?

Cheers, Al.

First letter:
T The live parts in the system have one or more direct connections to earth.

I The live parts in the system have no connection to earth, or are connected only through a high impedance.

Second letter:
T All exposed conductive parts are connected via your earth conductors to a local ground connection.

N All exposed conductive parts are connected via your earth conductors to the earth provided by the supplier.

Remaining letter(s):
C Combined neutral and protective earth functions (same conductor).

S Separate neutral and protective earth functions (separate conductors).



Valid system types in the 16th Edition IEE regulations:

TN-C No separate earth conductors anywhere - neutral used as earth throughout supply and installation (never seen this).

TN-S Probably most common, with supplier providing a separate earth conductor back to the substation.

TN-C-S [Protective Multiple Earthing] Supply combines neutral and earth, but they are separated out in the installation.

TT No earth provided by supplier; installation requires own earth rod (common with overhead supply lines).

IT Supply is e.g. portable generator with no earth connection, installation supplies own earth rod.



Inside or nearby your consumer unit (fuse box) will be your main earthing terminal where all the earth conductors from your final sub-circuits and service bonding are joined. This is then connected via the 'earthing conductor' to a real earth somehow...

TN-S The earthing conductor is connected to separate earth provided by the electricity supplier. This is most commonly done by having an earthing clamp connected to the sheath of the supply cable.

TN-C-S The earthing conductor is connected to the supplier's neutral. This shows up as the earthing conductor going onto the connection block with the neutral conductor of the supplier's meter tails. Often you will see a label warning about "Protective Multiple Earthing Installation - Do Not Interfere with Earth Connections" but this is not always present.

TT The earthing conductor goes to (one or more) earth rods, one of them possibly via an old Voltage Operated ELCB (which are no longer used on new supplies).

There are probably other arrangements for these systems too. Also, a system may have been converted, e.g. an old TT system might have been converted to TN-S or TN-C-S but the old earth rod was not disconnected.

Les,

Don't want to start an argument or anything, but isn't the colour of a ceeform socket to do with the supply type? ie blue for single phase 240V, yellow for single phase 110V, Red for three phase 220/440V ? The size of the socket is related to the current rating - the most common being 16A (ie the type Caravans use) but I have used 32A, 63A ans 120A Blue ceeforms in the past, and the same in red for three phase...

Cheers
Mark

Mark,

No you are correct, Blue is normally for 230 V and does come in several sizes right the way up

I was thinking along most of the welders we wire are either two or three phase....we don't really touch domestic stuff , so I had Red in me head

Two Phase??? Never played with one of those... I once made a 4 Phase box, but you really don't want to know about that!

Mark

Ok, I did some preliminary digging, me dear old pa is cool with the installation of whatever, so I 'can' do it.

I'll contact the company when I have the details in a few days, but... I just read this (admittedly from a phase converter selling company, so bound to be biassed):

"Users in rural or remote locations (or anywhere in the UK and Ireland) will find that a 3-phase supply is not easily obtained from their local power company. Installation costs in the UK range from 3000 to 72000 pounds."

OMFG. That's a lot of cash, isn't it! Is there any truth in the above? Does anyone have any idea of the costs I'm facing here?

Ta, Al.

phone your local power supply company (mine is western power) and ask them to come out and have a look. I had a quote before they went ahead with the work.

Yup - I sure will, but was the cost for you anything between the above figures? Ta Al.

umm no

definitely not- i am pretty certain it cost £1200 including the VAT about threee years ago.

this included digging up the road and laying new cable- about 6 metres.

Of course this just installed a meter and a 3-phase main fuse box. Rest of the stuff was done by a real sparky!

Sweet - thanks man.

I'm still digging, but now it sounds like there is still something to dig for!

Al.

Can I suggest one of these?


Si

yay, thats my day job, DC to 500kV, switching to 1megV

Jez, anyone in their right mind can see it's a 1.21 gigawatts flux-capacitor.

With that thing running full pelt in a deLorean, I could really cut down on build time...

Hmm...

heres a Daddy Tesla, somewhere over the Megavolt and screaming into the distance

I was contemplating building one for the roof of my 90......no, seriously!

I built a little TC 10kv primary, 200kv sec 1kva or so in the early 90's which was fairly cool. Something closer to the 1Mv mark would be cooler

Used a DIY 0.1uF glass plate capacitor - which made worrying creaking sounds! (They have a bit of a rep for exploding)

Seems to me that with the advent of auction sites, building one with neon psu's and more off the shelf components will be easier!

Si

want me to see whats in the stores ?

That would be good!

Si

If someone could explain this to me very slowly, I might just understand it!

Doyley,
Don't worry.... you are not alone

I don't want to weeeee on anyones fire. BUT, i farmer fried has just had the YEB (contractor) install single phase to his farm, he had nothing to start with. Cost was in the region of £45K. Mainly due to a 1 mile dig down the road to get onto his land. He did his own digging on his land, placed the trunking from his boudary to accept the cable. and still cost £45K.

Maybe going from single to 3 phases they can run the extra cable in to the existing trunking.....

Interesting to see what happens.

Oz

Gulp...

To be fair, I don't think (hope) it's a similar case, sounds a bit more work than mine, but I am kinda nervous. Worst case scenario I'll just get a separate single phase supply of the most amps I can lay my hands on and call it good.

Al.

Ok, small update and some more advice needed.

I've sent off my application / location plans etc. Looks like they'll come round for a quote in a week or so.

I had to list my expected usage etc - apparently motors are a big issue and can affect other local users. I didn't know anything about how the motors start, and now I need to let them know. So... can anyone tell me what kind of start the following tools would have?

SIP single phase 3HP (2.2kW) belt driven compressor - I can't find trhe starter info in any descriptions.

Colchester Bantam lathe with 3 phase motor.

Apparently the options are 'star delta' and 'direct online' - which is all Greek to me - any pointers as to what that lot means?

Cheers guys, Al.

Star and Delta are ways of connecting a 3-phase motor. See here for info and lots of lovely maths

What they're talking about with loads is the power factor and TBH Wikipedia explains it better than I can be bothered to

Thanks John. Is there any way of knowing which is most likely? I mean, do they always use one type or another on stuff like compressors?

How can I tell by looking which it is?

Al.

You can wire them both ways round usually - there is a box on top of the motor where the cable enters and you re-arrange links to change between star/delta IIRC.

As for what works best / is cheapest / etc. I have no clue.

Hmmm. Furry Muff then.

Little joberoonie for you John - when you break into my garage later (today?) - have a butchers at the compressor (far RHS wall) - jot down the phone number in big orange letters on the side for me?

I guess if they don't know, no-one will.

Not sure what to do about the lathe. To be honest I can't figure out why it is so critical for the leccy guys to have all the data - does this mean I'm not able to buy bigger / different type motors in te future?!? Weird.

I've been looking at red plugs ('CEE' or whatever you want to call them) - 16A @ 415V for about a tenner, 32A @ 415V at about 30 quid - seems not too bad. More amps than that starts getting painful, but those should do!

Anyone know what thickness cable / type of cable is good? I'm currently lost in cable on the RS website.

Cheers. Al. I'll get there...

Well for starters don't buy it from RS unles you're desperate, it's bound to be half price anywhere else. And no I don't know anywhere that sells 3-phase cable, last installation I saw they used individual cables for each phase.

Remember 16A @ 415V is twice the power of 16A @ 230V, if it's three phase then it's six times the power. Quite what you could fit into your workshop that would consume more than 20kW I'm not sure but I'd hate to see your leccy bill if you found something that does.

The compressor will be DOL as it is single phase.

If the compressor was star-delta it would start at a lower speed for a time delay before changing via contactors to delta (higher speed - lower current but motor will not start easily in delta mode)

I would suggest using a 32A SPN MK Commando Blue plugs and sockets for anything single phase (230v) over 3kW (upto 7kW), under 3kW use the 16A version.

I would buy all kit from a electrical wholesaler such as Newey & Eyre, just be cheeky and ask for a discount.

Personally I wouldn't bother with a three phase for one appliance if you have already bought a converter/inverter thing.

I would expect you could have ignored the motors bit on the application form as they only really want to know about really large motors (3 phase 400v with large starting currents like over 100A), I've never filled that part in for supplies even in excess of 2MVA. simple rule, if you can move the motor without a fork lift then for the electricty supply application ignore it!

One thing to bear in mind is all new wiring and installation must be tested in accordance with BS7671, ideally installed and tested by a NICEIC contractor, all work must comply to BS7671 (and be installed in accordance with the Electricty at Work Regulations), the installation should also be tested and inspected every 5 years (or less depending on the installation).

If are unsure get a NICEIC contractor to sort it for you.

Hello wormhole - thanks for the input. I have the guy coming on Friday to give me some quotes etc.



Understood, but the reason I only have 1 3-phase tool is that I don't have 3-phase! If I got it, that would probably change...

I don't have an inverter or anything for it yet (the lathe arrives this Saturday).


>"I would expect you could have ignored the motors bit on the application form as they only really want to know about really large motors"

Well, i thought that'd be the case too, but the really wanted to know (maybe just to eliminate them as being 'important').


>"...installation must be tested in accordance with BS7671, ideally installed and tested by a NICEIC contractor... ...the installation should also be tested and inspected every 5 years..."

Is this true even for private use? It's just my garage.

Cheers, Al.

Well, we met.

The supply runs right along the edge of the carpack which my garage is in.

I'm waiting for a formal invoice, but he reckons 800 quid as a ballpark figure. So I'm going ahead with it.

I need to dig an 18 inch deep trench across the carpark (say 15 metres), chuck in some kind of conduit or pipe (4" apparently i can get it from Jewsons - anyone know what it's called???), and bob's my uncle!

I think I get 100A at 415V as a minimum, maybe more if I decide i need it, but that should suffice for now Until the flux capaitor is up and running.

So I'll throw in a ring of blues for 240V, a ring of reds for 415V, and switch the current 'normal' mains sockets over to the new supply, along with the lights.

Is it really that hard - presumably it's like wiring a plug, only more/bigger, right? In which case, can I not just do it myself? (Had to ask)...

Cheers, Al.

Al, No, it's not that hard, and your ability to do it is not in question, it is the fact that you don't have the right bit of paper to say you can do it that is the problem!

If you can find a tame sparky, they just need to certify that it has been done correctly and safely, but that involves having all the right regulations met. If it was me, I would get hold of some wire in the old colours and claim it was all done before the new regs came into place...

Mark

As you say its all quite simple, I would not do a ring of red sockets, use a radial circuit with two or three sockets on.

The rules are less strict if its your garage, however a domestic property falls under building regs - part P so should be done or tested/inspected by a qualified sparky, however if you don't tell building control who will know (except for if your local building control officer is a LR nut )

If you are doing it yourself with a three phase distribution board remember to get either a 100A MCCB incomer or fuses because under the new supply regulations you cannot use on the supply fuses to protect your installation - don't just get the distribution board with auto switch disconnector as normally the supply authority won't connect your supply.

Also if you have a quote direct from the supply authority remember you need to organise a meter from your energy supplier

The duct is standard from Jewsons - I'll find out the type in the morning, also you need a yellow warning tape above the cable printed 'warning electricty cable below', I expect you can also get this from Jewsons

Al - I can get warning tape that says "cable below" although it might say "fibre optic" or "communications cable" the message is similar - don't dig it up! not that that ever stopped a contractor with a JCB

Thanks guys.

Wormhole - why 'radial' and not a ring - its gonna need lots more wire? What if 2/3 plugs isn't enough (why bother unplugging/replugging-in stuff, even if it's not all in use at the same time?). If I'm only using one (or max 2) 3 phase tools at once - isn't a 'ring' ok? (It's virtually only ever working as a single-tool supply anyway).

The property is not domestic, but it is not comercially rented out either (not this bit anyway), so I have no idea of which regs apply, never mind...

The supply company is also putting in the meter / cable - this is all included in that quote, it's all the same company.

>"If you are doing it yourself with a three phase distribution board remember to get either a 100A MCCB incomer or fuses because under the new supply regulations you cannot use on the supply fuses to protect your installation - don't just get the distribution board with auto switch disconnector as normally the supply authority won't connect your supply."

Sorry mate, I'm thicker than pig-crap when it comes to this stuff. "100A MCCB incomer" - WTF??? I know I get 100A at 415V supply - this is the suppliers fuse, which I guess is what you're telling me not to rely on? Ok, I planned on the usual RCD / fuse / tripswitch stuff anyway. Then some kind of single phase thingymajig off the three phase (???). Jeez I need a picture in brightly coloured crayons of which boxes to get and how to hook them up... Anyone got a web link or anything? What do I need to tap off the single phase from the 3 phase?

Is there anyone out there I can email about all this to bash through some details for a mains supply dumbass?

>"The duct is standard from Jewsons - I'll find out the type in the morning"

Thanks, I'd appreciate it.

John - I could use that tape if it says something relevant...???

Al.

A radial circuit is shown here http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Book/6.3.3.htm I've never seen three phase sockets in a ring, and I expect it wouldn't comply with the wiring regulations, you can put 4 or 5 sockets on a radial (actually you can put as many as you want however it seems pointless putting too many on) as you have only one three phase tool then just use two or three. The 16A single phase blue sockets should also not be on a ring, I suggest two radial circuits with approx 4 sockets on would be best.



MCCB - Moulded Case Circuit Breaker - this looks like a large isolator on the board, it acts like fuses or a large MCB so you can reset it. You need this because if you overload your supply the distribution company would have to come and replace your fuses, so now they say that their fuses in your cut-out (next to your meter) protect their cable, you need either fuses or a MCCB to protect your installation.
I'll see if I can get some pictures - 1000 words and all that...

MCB - Miniture Circuit Breaker - like standard domestic trip switches, used for outgoing ways on three phase distribution board, avaliable in three and single phase versions.




I'm waiting for YEDL to call back with the duct type, otherwise I'll have to dig through all our old quotations.

Good Luck
Matt

i am quotation GOD.







p.s. good job chap- you now have a proper garage and all your tools will miraculously be a lot cheaper!

I spoke to YEDL today, the duct is easy enough Black Electricty Duct, the part no is EATS 12-24 however aparently just Black Electricty Duct does it!

Thanks a lot wormhole - much appreciated. I'll get some ordered up.

Booked my trip back to the UK for this weekend and a mini digger to make a mess of the car park.

Pugwash - the voice of reason! Lucky guess I suppose...

Yeah cheap tools rock - now I can start thinking about that CNC plasma project...

Cheers guys. Al.

Never mind CNC Plasma, BUILD THE F***ING VEHICLE!

At this rate you'll have no room left in the workshop to actually build anything and will end up with the world's most over-engineered pushbike...

Meh... It's nice to have something to tinker away on for those moments when throwing an angry bag of spanners at the project just isn't satisfaction enough...

Besides - I'm on schedule, how is yours coming on John...

Did you manage to get that warning tape for me John, or shall I get some with the conduit?

Al.

Doing a little trip out tomorrow so will try to nab some, I'll let you know.

My build is coming on very well indeed, now onto rear winch mount, painting the chassis and then it's bodywork. Tube frames are soooo last weekend

QUICK HELP NEEDED:

If anyone knows where I can get some 'WARNING: ELECTRIC CABLE UNDER' tape to put on my conduit in the Winchester area tomorrow (Saturday) morning please post up ASAP.

I can't find any, and I only have a day to get it finished.

Thanks for any tips, Al.