Ah ………. I thought that would raise a smile or two…………

However, no smiles here at the moment………

Having just replaced the valley gasket due to the gasket to rubber end-seals RTV letting go and dumping a litre of oil over the engine front cover in 600miles ………. firing up the engine after the repairs, I noted a ‘chuffing’ noise, and on the V8 that is typical of a leaking exhaust manifold gasket …….. so I didn’t pay a great deal of attention to it.

Next day was a trip up the the M’way to Brizzle ……… on the way I noted the water temp was about 5/10 degrees above normal (as was the oil Temp) and the truck felt to be lacking a bit in the power department, but the journey was uneventful.

The journey back was a different story ………. Intermittent misfire started and by the time I got to M5/J24 one bank of cylinders had handed in the towel ……. and it seemed to be really struggling on the remaining 4 (you will see why later…. read on). As I couldn’t detect the misfire on the REV counter then the lack of one bank had to be fuel ……… it occurred to me that I may have knocked the resistor pack wiring when fixing the valley gasket …… any fault here on the input will cause this problem as the injectors fire in 2 banks of 4. After 10mins on the hard shoulder trying not to get killed …….. the AFM was removed and the resistor pack connector reseated ………. Once back together, all was well with the V8 heartbeat …………apart from the water temp being 100C @ 2600rpm (70mph), lack of power, …….. and I could hear the ‘chuffing’ noise.

Saturday morning was spent with the diagnostics hat on ………. ‘chuffing’ appeared to be coming from ‘engine central’ rather than the manifolds ………. removing the oil filler and breathers revealed a good impression of puffing billy …….. but this was exhaust gas and not steam.

A compression check told me all I needed to know ………

Right Bank,

2 = 180+
4 = 180+
6 = 180
8 = 180+

Left Bank

1 = 180
3 = 180+
5 = 90
7 = 145


So, it looks like 5 has blown into the valley and also into 7 …….. that would explain why the valley gasket gave up …………. Head will come off tonight and I am hoping its nothing anymore serious than the gasket ……… the only other option is a holed piston ........... but that is usually accompanied with clouds smoke from burning oil.

I am really beginning to think Diesel is the way forward……… I keep records (yes, I know, its sad)……… and the history is not good,

Looking at it since the ‘attention to detail’ rebuild,

15K = both Tin head gaskets changed to composites due to the coolant smelling like an exhaust pipe.

32K = Right hand bank head gasket replaced due to blow between 4 & 6 …….. caused by a head centre row bolt letting go on the ali block threads

42K = this is where we are now ………. Another bloody head gasket ……. Left hand bank this time.

Other stuff,

8K = valley gasket ……… coolant leak

23K = Valley Gasket ……. Coolant & oil leak

42K = Valley Gasket ………. Oil leak


I am slowly beginning to lose my patience (I suppose I am becoming an old git now) with the V8……… it was probably good as a Buick until they let loose the Rover and Lucas crowd on it.

I’ll keep you guys posted when I lift the head tonight ……………..



Ian

I remember when Read90 was changing rear mains and head gaskits on his 90 2.5 N/A for a past time I think it was 4gaskets and 3 rear mains before he discovered that the new rings on the first fitting and not beded in properly and the crank pressure was blowing the rear mains and not the head.

I would say its time for a new or recon enging there is somthing amiss with your lump that list of faults I would have binned it long ago..

but I have been there with trucks before... some times it's not better the devil you know.

Don't go to the smoky side no matter how tempting

As far as I can tell the only difference with TDi's is that they run better in water - listening to the chat at club meets the TDi's are not really any more reliable than V8's, and the parts seem to be more pricey because the world and his dog want TDi's for some reason.

Yours seems mostly down to crap gaskets, which is not really a major expense even if it is a PITA.

Ah, but we've got £20 back every time you visit the fuel station, so we can afford blingy injector pumps etc. Go diesel Ian - once it's started, it's running.

(and the rest)

But when a V8 stops it can be bodged into life to get you home

but a diesel when it stops, its over

Interesting………………………………

I suppose I had better explain a bit more about the engine ………its was far from a standard rebuild………….

HC pistons and the block decked to match the pistons (3.5+20) & fitted with Clevite ‘Buick’ rings ………. Reground crank fitted with Clevite ‘Buick race shells’ ..... ARP Studs…….. new cam bearings ……… 3.9+ cam ……. Heads ported and polished and skimmed …… all new top end ……….. even down to the rocker posts………… cloyes timing gear …… etc, etc.

The head gaskets I use are ‘Real Steel Composites as they are the only suppler I know of that produces them especially for the 3.5 and includes the outer row bolt holes. As a point of interest, I only fit the outer row to fill the holes (and hold ancillaries) but they are only lightly torqued to less than 20ft/lb.

I know that the TVR crowd fit LR 3.9 compo gaskets to the 3.5’s and leave out the outer row bolts (no holes) ………. but to me, that is a bodge due the difference in bore sizes ……. however, they tell me that it works fine ….. (I don’t know their definition of ‘fine’ though).


Ian

Plus a V8 will run on half the cylinders - and still sound better to boot

Seriously though - could it be there's a problem with eitehr the heads or the top of the block not being flat that's causing it to eat gaskets? I don't know the specs of the lump but I'm guessing it's well built. (Edit: D'Oh! Just as I post this you post your specs!)

Oh and is this the 5-minute argument or the full half hour?

split the odds John and go for 10 mins?

japanese diesel....



tin hat time (again )

Driving to scotland (from oxford) took 60 litres of fuel. competing in argyll took about 15 litres of fuel per day(okay not many stages...). Its a bogstandard 300 TDI I use. Try that in a V8.

I hear of problems with both engines, but I believe a fresh engine should last 100000 miles without this kind of trouble.

I'm just joshing about V8s (although they are terribly susceptible to a misty day and seem to consume as much WD40 as anything else...)

Ian - could there be an inertial problem with any ancillaries? If you've got anything special bolted to the heads (on your outer row of bolts?) then any vibrations might be distorting the head face out of flat when the lump's running?

Don't mention 2.8's

you'll get Will started

Joking aside

Has anyone ever put a 4.2 land cruser toyota lump in a rover..

Bet thats got some grunt in it

Bloody heavy Jules - Nissan SD35's go in well, just as much horse and torque as a TLC lump and a lot easier and cheaper to fit (and get hold of in the first place)

Was it the Nissan or Mazda RRC convertion which were popular before the days of cheap Tdi's

I have a mate that was a V8 man through and through until he drove a Mazda and loved it for it's power..

Both, Mazda SLT was another stonking motor - the only drawbacks with them was the weight and the length, on a rangie you have to move the front crossmember forward 100mm to clear it all

I think if one was to gather statistics and compared the ''whole of life'' running costs of a Rover V8 vs a Rover TDI, there would be very little difference, and may actually favor the V8. Japanese Diesels have earned their well deserved reputation for dependability in the tough gruelling highly competitive world of day to day commercial vehicle operation around the world.I have had a normally aspirated Toyota 3B 3 litre deisel sitting in my shed for a few years, just waiting for my much abused and long suffering 2 1/4 litre petrol engine to cry enough.The Toyota engine gave great economy in the old BJ40 donor vehicle that I drove for a few months.Horsepower and torque were adequate for sensible non competition use, and performance is consistant because it doesn't have any delicate timing belts, turbo charger or intercooler to fill up with mud and become ineffective. IMO Rover built diesels are an expensive liability I just cannot afford to have go wrong in harsh conditions a couple of hundred miles from any hope of assistance.
Bill.

I don't agree with the v8-tdi reliability thing.

me and Rog (898kor) have a joint spares box for our offroading, it contans for his v8; plugs, leads, dizzy cap, rotor arm, luminition module, fuel filter, fuel pump and a multimeter . All of which have seen use over the years. And for my 300tdi we carry a fan belt, which i have actually used once.

V8's are reliant on too many systems.

As long as you can get fuel to a tdi it will run.

Plus v8's are getting a little long in the tooth, try finding a decent front cover these days, or even worse a good set of su's.

yeah i got a mint serpentine front cover- £22

Su? WTF are those for?

only reliable thing for a V8 is megasquirt

I had a V8 once and it was nothing but F---ing trouble and broke down all the time.
A real pile of S--t. I had it for 4 months. Which was 4 months too long believe me.
Yes, if you have one thats brand new or one thats been refurbished by a reputable company, they might sound nice but they soon start to cause problems and the fuel consumption is terrible.
Also when it did run it didn't seem to be any faster or more powerful than the 200 tdi in terms of general road use.

AS FOR JULES SAYING YOU CAN BODGE IT UP TO GET HOME WELL WHY DON'T YOU JUST DO WHAT I DO AND JUST DRIVE HOME INSTEAD WITHOUT BREAKING DOWN ETC. THATS A NOVEL F---ING IDEA!!!!!!!!!

BIN THE BLOODY THING

I've had a Disco 200tdi for 5 and a 1/2 years and it's never ever failed to start.

I check everything thoroughly once a month and change the oil every 3k and thats it.

END OF STORY

BUY A 200TDI.

Would that be a mint serp front cover with a dizzy hole in it so it's at least nearly fixable.

Megasquirt is only reliable untill you drown the ecu, then your going home on a rope.

Su's and a points type dizzy and you might be able to get it going again,

The only problem with all these electronics is they cannot be fixed in the field.

Easy tiger no need to shout

Every day (38k per yr) I use a Td5 disco

I have a brother he loves Diesel & I love V8


Over the past 12 years

he has replaced / rebilt

2.5 NA x heads off 4 times
2 new sets of rings
1 x complete rebuild
2.5 tdi one needed new block and rebuild
three cam belts haves snaped each one lasted less than 10k


Me all in the same 90

Given V8 3.5 efi after 5 years lost oil pressure ( would have helped if I changed the oil ever) I then drove to distruction so I could get home still got me the 35m home.

I replaced it with a 55,000mile 4.2 V8 given nothing but complete abuse never missed a beat over the last three or four years

Simple....

I have to disagree here. In your part of the world the landrover diesel engine might be expensive, but here its the way forward. a conversion set for a japanese diesel is usually more expensive than the engine. So most people go for the landrover option. It cuts fuel bills in halve compared to a v8 and with fuelprices for diesel and petrol about £1 a litre, that is a big difference.

But that is just classic Land Rover

One gets treated with kidd gloves, all the best parts, best oils, weekly checks - breaks down at every oportunity.

Whereas the farm hack, held together with baler twine, run on god knows what fuel, never had the oil changed - runs and runs until the day it collapses in a cloud of iron oxide

from experience with my tdi & few mates with petrol lumps. id say the V8 needs more fiddling but dies about as often as a Tdi.
my Tdi loves to eat cambelts, ive had it 4 years now & they snap every 15k or so. ive replaced everything & know i built it right, just seems allergic to the damn things.
i love the sound of a V8 but i wouldnt get one as it takes way too much effort to make them waterproof. plus i just dont like electrical stuff offroad, it goes wrong to often on me.

later type- no hole for water to dribble into!

nah you just carry a spare ECU in a waterproof box- it's all of two minutes to swap out. My ECu will sit in a roof console- if i drown that then i will hvae more important things to worry about anyway.



that is true, but most of these electronic components are very light, cheap, and very quick to swap. To carry spare parts for the whole of my ignition system i would need- 2 leads (£10), 1 coil pack (£15 s/hand), 1 EDIS 8 Controller (£25) and a spare ECU pre-mapped for current setup (£100). This will all fit in a very small waterproof box.

You'll rarely see a diesel running badly. They run well or not at all, and when they don't run it tends to be £££. Petrols seem to need more tweaking but will generally 'get you home' eventually.

I personally find diesels more elegant, since there's only one variable - fuel. Throw in spark timing, advance, fuel mixture etc and it's a recipe for something that works but needs constant attention.

Can't argue that they make a nicer noise though...

Well, I took the left hand head off last night and sure enough the head gasket had blown ‘big time’ into the valley…….the ‘classic’ mode of failure for the RV8, even though I had just filled the holes with the outer row bolts which is supposed to lessen the effect of tipping the head away from the valley.

There is some minor damage to the head …….. a small leaching of the aluminium right at the front edge of the gasket compression seal ………just a very thin line that is about 2 thou at its deepest…………. ideally I would get the head skimmed again, but in this instance the head is reasonably straight so I will refit and see what happens.

A careful check of the head, using 2 engineers ground straight edges, revealed distortion of slightly less than 1 thou ……….previous experience tells me that distortion of up to 4 or 5 thou is about the most that can be tolerated ………. So tonight the head will get refitted.

There has always been some debate as to the method of tightening down the head bolts …….. the traditional method of tightening down to the required 70ft/lb by doing a 20ft/lb first followed by a 45ft/lb, followed by the final 70ft/lb is favoured by some, however others seem to had good success with going straight to 75ft/lb and then doing a final check………….. I’m traditional ……….. I’ll think about it.

I am at meetings today, in fact I am in a meeting right now, so I will post up some pictures tonight.



Ian

Just to be the antichrist

Buy Isuzu 2.8 engine for £140 - add to Rangie, drive to Slovakia non-stop x more times than I care to remember, minus 30 degrees C (no prob), +40 C (no prob) compete in Hungary x lots, knock around the Tatras, the forests in Pecs and everything in between - dump car in Danube during snowy season ('kin cold brrrr). come home sell car - now being hammered around Morocco (engine mileage unknown when I bought it)

buy Isuzu Trooper for £120, remove engine - sell gearbox and axles for £250
change cambelt
fit to range rover
drive to France, Belgium, Holland, Germany, Finland, Russia, do Ladoga, break radiator, come back with temp needle breaking the bump stops via Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Slovakia, Hungary, Croatia, Back to Hungary, back to Slovakia, Austria, Germany, Belgium, France and England ....... in the middle of a heatwave fix radiator - sell car - now competing around the UK. (210,000 on the clock when I bought it)

Buy another 2.8 - fit to old landy, repeat above pushing "rather large" tyres, subtract damaged rad - drive home.. contemplate selling/cutting up car (god knows how many miles on that engine)

IHI water and oil cooled turbos, capacity to run without wastegate, intercool and tune easily, short engine length, water to oil cooler as standard, cam belt change in about 5 mins
mmmmmm reliable, cheap, torquey - go like stink

(I shall be borrowing Mr Marshallsays tin hat and coat - its way to big for me but I cant find mine at the mo )

Listen to Jez. Yes the 200Tdi is God's Engine, but if mine breaks, then it's 2.8 Isuzu time. Had a couple before - one in an isuzu! - they are superb. Oh and unlike another make of 2.8, you can get parts!

Luckily I have a suit of armour on under my coat and a pair of roller skates on.

Im starting to regret nicking Andys coat............ it has a funny smell and Im not sure what these stains are..

It was the coat you was supposed to get ............. not the rubber latex suit




Ian

one and the same Ian - she he says he likes the comfort

I thought it was just a well lubricated wet suite that was three sizes too small

3 sizes too small for him = 4 sizes too large for the likes of us - just found a label "Goodyear shareholders would like to thank Madam M for the continued patronage" eeeeeek

I am now very, very scared!

When ever I go over he is always telling me about the cellar under his garage...

i'll second that, although i dont have such extreme or exciting cases.

buy trooper rust bucket for £100 (and admittedly drive it 200 miles straight to its resting place)
273000 miles on the clock.

fit to land rover,
drive home along the motorway with hole through radiator one night.
replace radiator, continue to use as before.

still working on the intercooler bit, could do with a bit more power. i do get 30mpg though in a 110, which is nice.

Would you include the TD5 engine as the way forward when comparing overall running costs? I ask this because I did a gearbox rebuild and synchro reface on a TD5 Defender with 105000kms on the clock last week. While I had the box out I checked the clutch and sprung flywheel which was knackered and probably caused the gearbox carnage. the cost of clutch/flywheel components alone AUS$1800 would buy an awful lot of petrol to offset the larger thirst of a V8.
Bill.

Callum - SAAB 9000 intercooler and a few bits of scrap heap blaggery and its cooled for about £30 you will certainly notice the difference when you cool it and ramp the baseline up a touch

Everyone has there own expiriance..

I have only ever played with a RallyART race tuned 3.2 diesel which was amazing and untouchable by anything I have ever driven before...
with somthin like 260 bhp and 750nm or somthing power

thats a lump that I would be intrested in having in a LR

Remember all you diesel boys I have a fully race tuned td4 Ex Dakar car that won the super production class in the BORC last year..

and my every day car is a Td5....

I just like V8's in toys there much more fun than Diesel's

thats true Jules - I never stop laughing when I see a V8 in a lake



tin hat (AGAIN)

Me too but the truble is I'm normally sat in the sodding thing

see your point about td5, I personally wouldn't go near them due to their complexity and driveability. Also conflicting storys about fuel consumption. Comments anyone?

daan

Td5 (auto D2)

Mines good as gold

I drive like an arss everywere and it still gives 27 ish mpg

So is this a good time to offer my 80000 mile 3.5 V8 up for grabs...........just finished putting in a 200 tdi........??? or not ??

Love driving it!... so far i'm fully converted, so to speak....

there-ish already, mine's a £18 ebay cooler from a saab 9-3. brand new as well. it was alittle bigger tan described, but i spent the weekend making it fit.

i'll stick some piccies in a new thread i think as its raining and working in the driveway sucks

been there mate - you have my sympathy

Try again Dan - last time I "flooded" mine (water up to the low range knob in the cab) I poured half a pint of water out of the megasquirt (my fault for "mounting" it between the seats for tuning that day) and turned the key. The only weak link was the dizzy which had by then filled up too, but that can be overcome with EDIS. As soon as the water went below dizzy level it fired up and I drove out, inside of the cap looked like a pot of yoghurt but the Lumenition + silly coil + magnecor leads means it will get a spark through a lot of crap.

Also, PCB lacquer or potting compound means you can run your ECU in a bucket of water if you want to.


Not quite true - you can bodge anything all you have to know is how it works. I wouldn't fancy my chances getting a dead diesel running but give me a dead V8 EFi and I could probably do it. How often do they go wrong though - apart from drowning ECU's through being mounted in silly places there's not much to fail. Sensors can be ignored/shorted (with MS you can re-set the map to ignore most of the sensors to get you home).

Trainspotter - So you had a crap V8, there are crap TDi's out there too but you can buy a running V8 for ~£150. As with anything if you have something poorly maintained with cheap parts then what do you expect - it will fail.

The Lucas EFi is a bit of a weak link but that's easily remedied.

Edited to add: Most LR owner's wiring skills are the weak link - sparky tape, tap connectors, twisted wire, re-used bits of loom, cracked insulation, nails as fuses and mains flex / doorbell wire are inadmissable as failure modes in this discussion.