biodave

strange that Dr Diesel, the man who actually invented the diesel engine specifically as a low cost agricultural engine so that farmers could grow their own fuel, says you can, yet you say you can't. Mmmmmm, wonder who to believe, especially as I have been running cars on 100% biodiesel made by me at home for more than 4 years, including common rails, and I have not yet blown a pump or injector. Biodave

No! Maybe better, more interesting and accurate to ask the manufacturer direct. We did, asking Volkswagen for their comments on behalf of a customer running a T5 van (2.8 TDi). They replied that ALL T5s are approved for 100% biodiesel (B100) from new, and most T4s (they supply a full list of chassis numbers), plus several other engines, which they also list. I will post the Volkswagen list if anyone is interested, sorry but I don't have a Land Rover reply yet. Please do not make general sweeping statements which may well be out of date. PS the Hains workshop manual for my Citroen Xantia 2.0 HDi (common rail) diesel turbo, which runs on 100% biodiesel, states " Injectors do deteriorate with prolonged use and it is reasonable to expect them to need reconditioning or renewal after 60,000 miles (100,000 km) or so." Is it remotely possible that the vehicle in question had already covered that sort of mileage with or without using biodiesel or veggie oil? Please check facts before leaping to conclusions. Biodave

Oh I do wish people would take the time to understand the difference between biodiesel and veggie oil. Once again then. Crude oil is chemically refined into diesel, vegetable oil is chemically refined into biodiesel. The confusion usually arises because while you cannot put crude oil into a diesel car, you can put some veggie oil in and it will run. It will also do a lot of harm because it is thick and viscous. It will clog injectors, damage pumps, etc. Biodiesel is refined to make it very, very similar to fossil diesel. It will not strain your pump, it will not clog injectors, it will not damage an engine, even a brand new vehicle straight off the forecourt. The reason biodiesel is not warranted from new is twofold. First, biodiesel attracts a lower and often zero duty rate, so the government misses out on millions each year. Second, you can make biodiesel at home. We do. Unfortunately, most people who try it make rubbish fuel that will kill a diesel engine in a few thousand miles. Manufacturers take a simple approach. If they can't guarantee the quality of the fuel going into your car, then they just impose a blanket ban on all biodiesel used at 100%. Simple. But maybe they can explain why a car made in the UK for Sweden must, by their laws, be adapted to run on 100% biodiesel, but exactly the same car and model for the British roads is only allowed to use 5%? By the way, most people only get round to experimenting with veggie oil/biodiesel with older cars, afetr all, what sort of a nutter would pour veggie oil into the tank of a brand new car? If you talk to any motor manufacturer, you find the life of diesel injectors is usually around 100,000 miles. In other words before you even pour in the veggie oil to see what happens, your injectors are three quarters knackered. You must have seen a 10 year old van pouring out black smoke going up hills? That's nearly always caused by clogged injectors and all of those have only ever run on fossil diesel (biodiesel with clogged injectors produces a nice white smoke and smells a whole pile nicer). Biodave

Out of date: Citroen/Peugeot now warrant all new cars for B30 and the entire Citroen works fleet now runs on B30. It's a changing world out there.

Disagree. We have run several cars with Lucas pumps on veggie oil. We ran a Citroen Xantia 2.1 TDI with the Lucas Epic pump as a test car for more than 2 years and 50,000 miles filling the single tank with 100% veggie oil, winter and summer, and with fuel pre heaters prior to the fuel filter. Mind you, we do live in Cornwall where frosts are as rare as being bitten by a lettuce. Biodave

Hi yes, really simple. we converted a series 1 last year which has a return from the Injector pump, a return from the injectors, both of which go into the fuel filter, and an overflow return from the filter to the tank. We simply took a 'T' piece in 8mm and connected both returns into the single return which went back to the tank and blanked off the open inlet on the fuel filter. Nothing now goes back into the fuel filter, it all heads back to the tank, like my Discovery. Has been running like this for over a year with no problem. But please be aware that when we fit twin tank conversions there are several ways to connect them, we prefer to have the return going back to the original tank, in other words, if you run on oil, the return goes to the main tank, and if you are on diesel, the return goes back to the second diesel tank. Other methods include a looped return, which we have installed, and a common return, but this means when you are on diesel, the return pumps into the main tank, meaning if you run on diesel too long, you pump the diesel into the main tank. No problem with running, but you have to keep filling the second tank, which is a pain. Hope this helps, can do diagrams if you want Biodave

Sorry Tony I am a director of Cleaner Combustion Ltd which supplies consultancy, surveys and tailor made biodiesel processors to local businesses within a 40 mile radius of Falmouth, so I could be seen to have a vested interest in promoting complete kits, but maybe my personal experience will help others understand that it is not for business reasons that I hold this belief. I began over 4 years ago as a private motorist running on 100% wvo (twin tank) then 100% wvo (single tank) and began making biodiesel at the end of 2005. I began by making my own reactor out of bits I had knocking around and other bits I had to buy. The processor evolved over time, but at no time did my efforts result in running a biodiesel processor that could actually make biodiesel with a conversion efficiency of 95%. The stuff I made did go into my cars which appeared to run well, especially my Vauxhall Frontera B 2.2 TDi automatic Limited Edition. However, there were 2 hidden, but very serious problems with doing this. According to HM Revenue and Customs for biodiesel to be biodiesel you need to have 96.7% conversion of oil to methyl esters. Below this the fuel you produce is not legally biodiesel, but is classed as a fuel substutute, and that is charged at the same rate of duty as the fuel it replaces, namely diesel where the fuel duty is 54p per litre. But, more important, you do not get the 2,500 litre duty free allowance. In other words, if you get stopped or raided at home (as I have been) and if the fuel is not 96.7% or more methyl esters (I was in the clear), you could be charged with duty evasion, which carries very serious penalties, or be made to back pay the appropriate duty. More serious, is the quality of the fuel. I believed that having run my cars on 100% waste veggie oil, that any conversion to thin it down would be good news. But no! Breaking the initial bond of the tri-glyceride produces methyl esters (the bit that is biodiesel), but also mono-glycerides and di-glycerides which need to be further broken down. These are both very much more harmful (coking, gumming, erosion of components, etc) than burning tri-glycerides (veggie oil is nearly 100% tri-glycerides). And incomplete conversion also leaves glycerine, unreacted caustic, soaps and water that are especially harmful to engines. In plain English, making poor quality biodiesel does more damage than just bunging in cold veggie oil into the tank, which is not a good thing to do. So, while anyone can put together a home made processor that makes a runny fuel that is called biodiesel, the vast majority are incapable of making biodiesel (96.7% and above conversion) putting you at odds with HMRC and maybe causing engine damage over a few thousand, or a few tens of thousands of miles, costing you far more than you have just saved. This lack of knowledge is why we formed the company just over 2 years ago. For anyone who completely understands what they are doing, the chemical processes and the physics behind the reaction, please go for it, and I will offer designs and advice free of charge, as stated in my original posting on this subject. But if you are not an expert, I strongly recommend you save up and buy a decent processor ready built from a company who knows what they are doing (not us, by the way, we do not sell kits for mail order). Sorry again for a long reply Biodave

Chris I have never tried any other method. I run a big pump that sucks up the oil then mixes it while it is heating, then sucks up the methoxide and mixes it during the reaction, then, after settling and draining off the glycerine, it pumps the raw biodiesel into a settling tank from where it will be washed, used to water wash but I now use dry washing, usually Purolite (dearer to buy but lasts ages) or Eco2pure (cheaper, easier to get rid of (sawdust soaked in methanol and biodiesel!) but gets exhausted very quickly so more expensive per litre) Have not looked at stirrers, but might. The reaction time and efficiency depends on agitation, if you doubt it, try just pouring the methoxide into the hot oil and waiting. Nothing happens. The more vigorously you mix the quicker and more thorough the reaction (up to certain limits, obviously, you cannot convert more than about 99% no matter what you do) The kit I use is on shown cleanercombustoion.co.uk products page and makes great biodiesel with little effort let me know if you have info on mechanical stirring, I am always keen to learn Good luck Biodave

Chris I regularly made poor biodiesel with low percentage conversion, often in the 50% and 60% range (I'm ashamed now), even running the system for over 3 hours. I changed chemical suppliers believing they were poor quality, I changed just about everything I could think of, but the most dramatic change was when I changed the pump. The old one was 38 lpm (litres per minute) Tam 105, highly recommended on the web and most forums. I bought a 110 lpm monster. The throughput and the mixing are now what can only be described as ferocious. I now mix up my methoxide using 3.5 + titration value (X 1.4 for potassium), add it all at once to 150 litres WVO and react at 50C. After 45 minutes I turn it off, let it settle 10 minutes, then methanol test the biodiesel. Often it has already finished, sometimes, I know not why, it hasn't, so in that case I turn it back on for 15 minutes and repeat every 15 minutes until it has finished. I have never reacted longer than 1 hour 30 minutes with this pump. The last batch yesterday completely reacted after the first test at 45 minutes. I personally believe that most people have a hugely undersized pump, meaning that the reaction is never properly agitated. People who realise it has not completely reacted (but not why) resort to adding extra caustic, using base rate of 4g or even 5g (Journey to Forever states 3.5 and I agree), or split adding the methoxide 80/20, or leave the reaction running 4 hours, or react at 60C. I don't believe any of this is necessary and I don't believe any of it results in a complete reaction. Why not? In simple terms, in theory I could heat my house by burning a single candle if I left it burning long enough. We all know it never happens. Likewise most people think if the reaction hasn't completed, just run it longer. I now don't believe it works. I believe that an undersized pump never will complete the reaction no matter what you try to do. I believe it always leaves unused caustic, mono-glycerides, di-glycerides and tri-glycerides which will never water wash out in a month of Sundays, you just get an instant emulsion (a lot of Journey to Forever deals with emulsions and breaking them, although they do also state that if you make good biodiesel you can thrash it with a drill and paint stirrer and get almost instant separation, and I totally agree). Most people who have a problem making biodiesel try to gently wash it, even mist washing, to avoid that dreaded emulsion. Don't bother. Make good biodiesel instead. Reaction time depends on good chemicals, but I've never actually bought bad ones. It depends on temp, I use 50C. It depends on reasonably de-watered oil. And it depends on good agitation. If you eliminate all the others, try a new pump. Get a monster pump, thrash the mixture to death in less than an hour and sit back and watch it wash out like you've never seen before. I guarantee 2 things; a) it will make better biodiesel with higher conversion percentage in much shorter times; and B) if it doesn't, then at least you'll find out that you've made bad biodiesel after only an hour, saving you hours of wasted time. Anyone putting together a kit on their own using their own design may not be aware of this. Any decent company should, although I still see reactors on ebay for £500 to £800 with a Tam 105 bolted to it. By the way, there's nothing wrong with the Tam, its a good pump, just undersized for a reactor pump. I now use mine for moving the finished biodiesel from storage tank to containers to car fuel tank, for which it is brilliant. Sorry again for the lengthy reply Biodave

latest figures on ebay show waste oil 1000 litres at 38p per litre plus delivery and locally I can buy it for less than half that also processors are advertised from £300 but a really good one is around £1K you fill up a tank for £70 and give Gordon Brown and his crew £55+ in taxes if you like, it's a free world. I prefer to buy 5 tankfuls of waste veggie oil for less money and pay him nothing in duty or VAT, legally! biodave

We're not really different. I started 4 years ago with an old copper cylinder, inverted to get a conical base, I bought a small cheap pump and used bits and pieces of copper 22mm pipe lying around. I settled fuel in a 45 gallon steel drum, water washed, etc., etc. I used that for almost 2 years and made thousands of litres of biodiesel using recipes from Journey to Forever. Been there, done that. It all looked good and my cars ran on it. BUT ..... BUT .... I have moved on. Biodiesel, by definition, is minimum 96.7% methyl esters, in other words, 96.7% of the oil you put into the processor must be changed into biodiesel. When I now test old samples of the biodiesel that I made with my old copper cylinder set up, I am ashamed to say I never actually got anywhere near that. Yes it looked good, nice and clear, and the cars ran on it, but I now know that what I was making was often as low as 60% Methyl Esters. My poorly made biodiesel contained up to 40% tri-glycerides, along with really harmful and damaging mono-glycerides, di-glycerides, soaps, excess caustic, and other assorted by-products of incomplete reaction (read how severely critical Journey to Forever is about purity). You would be better just adding 40% vegetable oil to fossil diesel, far less hassle and probably less damaging to your engine. I now make biodiesel to European standards, with well over 98% conversion, in my new professionsl processor. What took sometimes as long as 4 hours I now do in 45 minutes. It is just so quick, efficient, effective and reliable. The fuel is good, pure and clean with no impurities. Before you say I'm a purist try this link and you will see that I have run my Disco on 100% waste vegetable oil, straight from the chip shop, filtered and fed through a fuel pre-heater, and it ran well. But using any fuel for a few thousand miles is nothing compared to the 500,000 miles a diesel engine is good for. I believe people looking to make biodiesel should be informed when they make their choice as to whether to use a home made system or purchase one. Having used both I would never, ever recommend anybody makes their own system unless they know exactly what they are doing. sorry for the lengthy answer Biodave

been there, done that, worn the t shirt and strongly recommend you don't but will if you insist if you were going to race competitively off road, would you buy second hand bits here, there and everywhere and cobble them together and if you did would you expect to win anything at all? a proper biodiesel kit designed by someone who knows what they are doing will make much better quality biodiesel, with much higher yields, far fewer failures, use less chemicals and will save you far more money in the long run. Don't forget, if you do 10,000 miles a year in a disco you are likely to be buying 500 gallons of diesel at around £4.50 per gallon, that's well over £2000 (which is why I asume you are looking at biodiesel) Buy a decent assembled processor for £1,000 to £1,500 and you will get your money back in the first year and it will then last years and years. But if you want to see what's in a system, try http://www.cleanercombustion.co.uk/evap_bioprocessor.html where they show a full system item by item and give advice on how to choose all the best biodave

re: insurace and modifications beg to differ. I run 4 vehicles, including Discovery 2.5TDi and all have been converted to run on veggie oil and all are insured with Direct Line and all attract absolutely no aditional premium plus I get a cool insurance certificate which says converted to vegetable oil. Some mods are accepted, but I don't know about HHO Biodave