neil110

New Def Neddy

83 posts in this topic

7 minutes ago, Davo said:

Well . . . . . . . . they don't exactly have the best track record up until now. It's like [insert favourite hopeless British institution here] suddenly becoming useful and efficient. It's a nice idea . . . but . . . 

On the other hand, can I tell you about something called a LandCruiser? 

I am unaware of Ineos failing to do anything but be successful. Most low production car manufacturers in the UK are successful. TVR, Morgan, Bowler, Foers, to name but a few

As for Land Rover Vs. Toyota; folk often forget that Land Rover is and always has been a low volume producer. Toyota moved past that point back in the 60's and as such had money and need to develop the doorstep markets like Australia. As for no being useful and efficient. Look closer at Toyota, Nissan and Isuzu etc. Great vehicles but just as many faults - just faster solutions; apart from rust 

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People are often very happy to point the finger at the British car industry, but forget that we have a massive car industry over here, not just the main manufacturers (Like Nissan, Honda, etc), but the aftermarket, hobbyist brigade, and 'modifiers', all of which barely exist by comparison in other countries across Europe. Not to mention all but one, I think, F1 teams are in the UK.

Heard of McLaren?

I could go on :)

We are a nation of motorists for sure.

 

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6 minutes ago, honitonhobbit said:

I am unaware of Ineos failing to do anything but be successful. Most low production car manufacturers in the UK are successful. TVR, Morgan, Bowler, Foers, to name but a few

As for Land Rover Vs. Toyota; folk often forget that Land Rover is and always has been a low volume producer. Toyota moved past that point back in the 60's and as such had money and need to develop the doorstep markets like Australia. As for no being useful and efficient. Look closer at Toyota, Nissan and Isuzu etc. Great vehicles but just as many faults - just faster solutions; apart from rust 

But the simple fact is that they dominate markets like where I live and other remote places, and they do so because they suit the market and have the support. They're not great cars but they've never been that bad, either, and Toyotas here are as close to having a religion as some people will get. (Which is as spooky as it sounds, but it's true!) 

I'd love it if Land Rover managed to make an actual workhorse, but my money says they'll screw it up somehow. 

Of course I'd love it if they produced something great, but it would be a huge leap from what they've done for the last two or so decades. 

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Toyota were never part of British Leyland though.

JLR do pretty well with (relatively) little (and starting from a hell of a disadvantage), and in their situation there's no way they could compete with Toyota, Nissan etc. churning out high-volume low-cost econoboxes by the millions. Turning out low-ish-volume high-value luxury motors doesn't scale for the likes of Toyota but does suit smaller UK outfits.

The Defender was designed several eras ago in a penniless hurry as a stop-gap, hence doesn't suit modern volume production in the way the jap stuff does, and LR never had the funds to develop a new one that does... until now. So of course it will be drastically different, but perhaps a few people could entertain the fact that LR generally manage to do something pretty damn effective, clever, and capable even if the execution sometimes leaves something to be desired?

Despite their various issues, almost every new LR thing has been pretty good, despite being developed on a (relative) shoestring. Original RR was a revolution, then which madman thought of taking a luxury 4x4's underpinnings lock stock and making it into the Defender? The original Disco was knocked together from the BL parts bin for 50p and was pretty well one of the most practical things ever, Freelander 1 is a brilliant and practical small 4x4 (again from the MG/Rover parts-bin) and I'll fight anyone who says otherwise, Disco 3 / New RR are just insanely capable things that defy the laws of physics...

Toyota can pour an extra $1bn into making stuff reliable, it's small change to them as they sell a squillion units a year and can put your TLC engine into a million generators, forklifts, boats, cranes, light trucks and whatever.

Just googled it, JLR revenue is ~£22bn, Toyota is ~£2 TRILLION, I don't think they do too badly considering!

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My boss had an 03 plate BMW 535d, if you left it parked for more than around a week it wouldn't start and either a BMW fitter would have to come out or it would have to be flat bedded to a dealer to be restarted with a laptop. It got to the point where he used to phone the breakdown company whilst waiting at the baggage carousel. Eventually BMW released a software fix and all was well. However he always used to ask the flatbed driver what was the most and least reliable car. The drivers usually claimed the most reliable were Mitsubishi and least were Land Rover. Rolling on he had a 2009 Audi A6, it had a wide range of problems throughout the 6 years he had it which called for breakdown companies to be called so he asked the same question and usually got the same answer which leaves me with the impression that Land Rover have made huge leaps with comfort and technology both on and off road but are still missing that basic reliability that we expect from a new car, and if I was spending £80k on a car I would not be pleased if I ever saw the hard shoulder even if I could have a hot massage whilst watching loose women. Of course negative reputations are hard to shift so I'm sure there's a bit of that in it.

That said the above story leaves me with a similar impression of BMW and Audi :lol:

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8 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

Toyota were never part of British Leyland though.

JLR do pretty well with (relatively) little (and starting from a hell of a disadvantage), and in their situation there's no way they could compete with Toyota, Nissan etc. churning out high-volume low-cost econoboxes by the millions. Turning out low-ish-volume high-value luxury motors doesn't scale for the likes of Toyota but does suit smaller UK outfits.

The Defender was designed several eras ago in a penniless hurry as a stop-gap, hence doesn't suit modern volume production in the way the jap stuff does, and LR never had the funds to develop a new one that does... until now. So of course it will be drastically different, but perhaps a few people could entertain the fact that LR generally manage to do something pretty damn effective, clever, and capable even if the execution sometimes leaves something to be desired?

Despite their various issues, almost every new LR thing has been pretty good, despite being developed on a (relative) shoestring. Original RR was a revolution, then which madman thought of taking a luxury 4x4's underpinnings lock stock and making it into the Defender? The original Disco was knocked together from the BL parts bin for 50p and was pretty well one of the most practical things ever, Freelander 1 is a brilliant and practical small 4x4 (again from the MG/Rover parts-bin) and I'll fight anyone who says otherwise, Disco 3 / New RR are just insanely capable things that defy the laws of physics...

Toyota can pour an extra $1bn into making stuff reliable, it's small change to them as they sell a squillion units a year and can put your TLC engine into a million generators, forklifts, boats, cranes, light trucks and whatever.

Just googled it, JLR revenue is ~£22bn, Toyota is ~£2 TRILLION, I don't think they do too badly considering!

I agree with most of that, however most of it is irrelevant. Regardless of company size, or what successes Land Rover has most certainly had, (despite everything, including, sometimes, themselves), JLR had a workhorse they never put much into and certainly here never - and I mean never - advertised the thing or otherwise supported it. Then they pulled it from the market without having a replacement ready, (which is just bizarre), leading to literally years of speculation. Usually this speculation is about what it will look like, and whether or not it will actually be a workhorse or a show pony. And for those of us who know what a workhorse should be, it would take a very impressive turn-around for this goofy company to somehow produce one. But I certainly hope they do! 

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The point of pulling it with no replacement is two fold one everyone and I mean everyone is talking about it. 2 because the old finished a year or two ago no one will be able to directly compare them fairly. I call that inspired marketing.

Mike

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2 hours ago, miketomcat said:

 everyone and I mean everyone is talking about it.

We the enthusiast forum members are, but are the likely buyers (and I know some 'enthusiasts' bought new Defenders in recent years, but we are never going to constitute a 'market' for Landrover)?  I have a strong suspicion that the people who buy vehicles for large and small fleets in the UK and Europe as well as further afield are busy building relationships with VW, Ford, Mitsubishi, Great Wall, Nissan, Toyota and, (I recently learned to my surprise ^^) Fiat dealers!  Those fleet buyers are the ones who make for a large scale, viable and sustainable commercial vehicle manufacturing operation.  

I have not listened to the radio interview mentioned above, nor do I know anything about the company behind it, but is this the firm that allegedly 'bought' the press tools etc for Defender?  If so, I imagine them building old school Defenders on a small scale for the existing enthusiast market - rather like some small scale makers of Jeeps, Toyota FJs, Broncos etc that seem to exist.  I shall go and listen and learn now...

Chris

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No firm has bought the tooling, there was rumours someone wanted to but they were false. 

They are looking at making a brand new vehicle, based on a separate chassis, modular, utilitarian.

I'm fairly certain that to make a Defender pass type approval would be tricky to say the least nowadays.

Ineos is a chemical manufacturing company, a very, very large one, looking to move into the automotive market.

Interview is only 4 minutes long, worth a quick listen.

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34 minutes ago, Bowie69 said:

No firm has bought the tooling, there was rumours someone wanted to but they were false. 

They are looking at making a brand new vehicle, based on a separate chassis, modular, utilitarian.

I'm fairly certain that to make a Defender pass type approval would be tricky to say the least nowadays.

Ineos is a chemical manufacturing company, a very, very large one, looking to move into the automotive market.

Interview is only 4 minutes long, worth a quick listen.

Tata should move the tooling to India and start production for 2nd and 3rth world countries.

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My experience of fleet commercial buyers is they have a tender list, as a dealer / manufacturer you ask to be put on the list and when that buyer wants a vehicle they send the request to everyone on the list who propose a vehicle and price. Not many people seem to keep a long term relationship going now, the tenders seem to go out for almost every order or atleast every few years. It comes down to how good the staff are at getting themselves on the list. When I was looking at the Fiat pickup the commercial salesman told me he is judged by how many logbooks he moves a month not how much money he makes so he goes rock bottom price straight away for every tender as if the competitor is cheaper then they don't come back and ask you to match it, it just goes to the other manufacturer. Can't be a nice working environment?

The best one I heard was it was all going to Turkey as it's outside the EU and the transit plant is there which offers a ready supply chain but I guess that's not a goer either.

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12 hours ago, miketomcat said:
8 hours ago, hangover said:

Tata should move the tooling to India and start production for 2nd and 3rth world countries.

But why would a buyer in a third world country want an inferior product? Assuming Landrover are going to produce a new Defender, and assuming it is available as a base model, why would anyone in a second/third world country not want to buy a 'new model' Defender?  They seem likely to be built abroad where there is cheap labour, and will cost less to assemble than the old model due to increased automation.  I cannot see why it would make any sense.  Even assuming it were possible to sell a lower tech engine*, the same line could handle that engine just as it will handle the likely range of engines for western markets.

*I would assume that developing markets are under pressure to use reduced emission engines just as we are in the west - either from local requirements or as a result of aid restrictions/targets set by western powers.  The last thing the world needs is for 500,000,000 Chinese/Indians to become mobile in polluting vehicles in the next few decades.

Chris

 

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Why would developing markets want something as quirky as the Defender when they can buy a Hilux or other mass-produced pickup? There's a reason Toyota Corollas are the best selling thing ever and it's not because they're interesting or full of character.

If LR really made the new Defender to really appeal to the mass market for utility vehicles, all the purists would complain (even more), if they did all the stuff the purists demand they'd sell about 100 trucks a year.

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On ‎13‎/‎02‎/‎2017 at 2:44 PM, Davo said:

But the simple fact is that they dominate markets like where I live and other remote places, and they do so because they suit the market and have the support. They're not great cars but they've never been that bad, either, and Toyotas here are as close to having a religion as some people will get. (Which is as spooky as it sounds, but it's true!) 

I'd love it if Land Rover managed to make an actual workhorse, but my money says they'll screw it up somehow. 

Of course I'd love it if they produced something great, but it would be a huge leap from what they've done for the last two or so decades. 

But Land Rover did make a work horse - a number of very good ones. Okay so they weren't suited to most of Australia's requirements; but you can go anywhere in rural Australia and find working Land Rovers. You try finding an old Toyota over here!  All rotten - even early 80 series - unless grey imports. Shame, but simply not up to the job, same with Nissan, Isuzu, Suzuki, Land Rover...

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On 2/13/2017 at 11:29 PM, FridgeFreezer said:

Well, look at this - I can't quote anyone but I can write in here as if someone else wrote it! Sorry Fridge, this is what I've got to write with. I swear I'm not setting you up! 

Anyway . . . inspired marketing? Can't be. Nobody cares, really, they're all looking at other vehicles, which just so happen to be actually available to buy. 

And please, not the "purist" argument again. Who are these mysterious enthusiasts in their hessian underwear? I suspect that what most of us would like is as good a working car as a Hilux or whatever else is being used these days. Just modern, but practical as well. This theoretical Land Rover would be affordable to own and affordable to fix, and without too many fancy extras to let you down. This can not be that difficult to build and would most likely sell at least 101 vehicles per year. 

And no, apart from the Stage I Isuzu I can't think of anything that was a decent workhorse, that is, with a powerful engine and a strong gearbox. It is very rare to find a Land Rover of any description in remote areas these days. The oldies have rusted out as well. A little while ago we drove down to Perth and surrounds and back, which was a distance of 7000km, and the sheer numbers of white Toyotas on the roads, (often driven badly), was incredible. Each one of those cars represented a missed sale for JLR, who dribbles on about their "heritage" but doesn't have anything related to it anymore. 

Might I just add what a wonderfully gentlemanly debate this is. It's almost as if we're not even on the internet! :lol:

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It's horses for courses really

Australia and the UK are a bit different in there requirements. Taking bullocks to market in the UK might be as much as 20 miles and maybe 3 squeezed in a cattle trailer on a the back of a 90. Anymore and you get a wagon in to do the move. So a 122bhp/212ftlb 5 cylinder donk is the height of refinement and a 2.25 diesel donk did the job better than a 2.4 NAD Hilux. Why would you want a 60 series Landbarge if all your gates were 6' and you couldn't drive the fields for half a year AND it used fuel like a Glaswegian drinks Buckfast. Also you can't open gates with a Landbarge. I think if you look carefully you will find old series motors all over - although most are being rounded up and shipped to Lode Lane for the reborn Project. As for missed sales - as I keep saying LR is a low volume manufacturer. They like to make big money on a small number of vehicles not small money on loads. Shifting stuff 'Down Under' used up valuable profit so why not just let the Colonial Johnnies make do with stuff form Japan?

As for Purists - there are tens of thousands of annually retentive LR purists scattered across the globe! Each one more dangerous than the next. I supply the example of the initial DC100 concept vehicle and its response as evidence

By the way do you mean the manual box in the Mk1 Trooper? The auto was made of mouldy chees and cold soup

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A possible reason for the dearth of aged Land Rovers in Australia is that Land Rover are buying them up, shipping them back to the factory, renovating them and selling them again for figures north of £60,000 each.

In another forum I read that Nissan are buying back some of the Navarra models in Europe because the chassis rust is so bad the chassis are failing.

http://www.europe4x4mag.com/2016/03/03/pick-ups-check-chassis/

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3 minutes ago, honitonhobbit said:

By the way do you mean the manual box in the Mk1 Trooper? The auto was made of mouldy chees and cold soup

Or, the LT95 as fitted to the Isuzu engined Land Rovers used by the Australian military?

Edited by neil110

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And we're back to normal . . . 

Anyway, I highly doubt that Aussie Land Rovers are being bought up by the factory from here - the bulkheads and chassis rusted out long ago on most of them and otherwise they're too beaten up to be much good. Also, the company had the market decisively removed from their grasp forty years ago by other companies supplying vehicles people actually wanted, and this happened not that long after Australia and South Africa had been the two biggest Land-Rover importers for many years. 

As for the "new" Loch Ness-inspired whatever-it's-called thing the factory is/isn't designing, I'm not just referring to Australia, but to where people need a work car, which is pretty much everywhere. Huge market, completely ignored. Most mysterious. 

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Er, the odd Series I, yes . . . I was referring to an earlier comment about why you don't see old Landies around here anymore. 

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3 hours ago, Davo said:

..where people need a work car, which is pretty much everywhere. Huge market, completely ignored. Most mysterious. 

Not that mysterious if you've got limited factory space and have the choice between churning out £100,000+ Range Rovers at ~60k profit per unit or some utility truck with very little margin. What's quite surprising is that LR bother making anything other than Range Rovers really...

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Yes poor old nissan, first they made engines that destroyed themselves, then gearboxes now the chassis breaks in two after a few years. Can't say I'm too upset though as from my experience they were awful pickups and since their link with Renault their cars seem to have lost their reliability. 

I think the difference is people buy a £15k pickup to do some sort of utility job, use it for that job, ignore maintaining it and dump it when it starts to cost.

The people that used buy a £25k to do a job, used it for that job, but when it was at the stage of holes in chassis and knackered gearboxes were able to find some mad man with a bobble hat who would pour hours of attention over it in his garden shed to keep it on the road.

So there's obviously something about the land rover which inspires people to spend almost unjustifiable amounts of time and money on the thing. I guess it's like people who also love steam trains or whatever. I'd put myself in that catagory for a hobby as I spend hours in the shed pottering on pretty pointless endeavours, however when I'm working and I have a schedule I'm afraid I have to pick a vehicle which I'm confident will always get me there in comfort and without annoying me with silly bings and lots of frustrating auto features which unfortunately isn't something land rover currently offer.

To veer off topic this is one of my waste of time projects, it's a trailer for an rc lorry which my son talked me into buying :)

20170112_170950_zpse1fzmzjc.jpg

20170127_202048_zpsehxqigvo.jpg

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