western

intermittent clutch after replacement

68 posts in this topic

Changed the clutch in my 110 over the weekend, reason was it was intermittently slipping, when seperated from engine the release bearing fell out but it's carrier was still in the gearbox shaft, never had that before.

new clutch installed & it's slipping  again or feels like it, even during the short test drive yesterday, everything is clean & grease free, 

this morning, 110 reveresd out of my drive OK, moved off but on changing up through the gears it felt like clutch was slipping or taking to long to take up drive, I hoping I don't have to split engine/gearbox again, but think I'll have too, just to see if all is as it should be, 

I'm wondering if the flexi hose is breaking down & has a internal bit that is acting like a one way valve, I'm in conversation with David at Llama 4x4 for new hoses as per my earlier post http://forums.lr4x4.com/topic/100307-clutch-slave-cylinder-hosepipes/

need help as 110 is not driveable & is my only vehicle.

 

 

 

 

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Ralph,

Did you go for the standard plastic bearing carrier or upgrade to an alternative metal one?

Just wondering if the release bearing is remaining in contact with the forks and reducing the clamping pressure on the clutch? 

I assume you replaced the pressure plate and clutch material?

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If it will eventually stall the engine by setting off in 4th, then as above, sounds like hydraulic failure, as the clutch is clearly grabbing enough.

Maybe David can get you a set of hoses sharpish :)

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Or.... adjusted clutch pedal? Perhaps not releasing fully.

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2 hours ago, ericobrave said:

Sounds like hydraulics to me

Failing hydraulics would have the total opposite symptoms, i.e. you wouldn't be able to change gear and the clutch would bite when you didn't want it too... (Failing being defined as internal leakage).

Ralph did you take any photos of if while it was apart the last time?

I wonder if you've got a problem with the clutch plate itself or the cover...

It sounds like something is stopping the gripping action of the clutch cover, hence making it slip, curious

Could the master cylinder have failed not allowing the release bearing to full retract? Can you confirm that the clutch pedal is coming back up to its highest position? - any further upward movement if you hook your foot behind the pedal after its been depressed?

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Failing hydraulics can slow return of the cylinders as well as making bite point impossible to reach.

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master & slave cylinders are new TRW items fitted about 2 weeks ago, brand new Valeo 130 heavy duty clutch friction plate UBQ000130 & cover URB100760 same as I always fit. 

LR Genuine release bearing UTJ100210 [plastic carrier] never had a problem with this before. I tried pulling off in 3rd & 4th 110 just stalls with engine at idle revs.

free play at pedal is good,as is the pedal height from floor. pedal feels normal in use & returns to it's at rest posistion with no assistance from me. I can redo the pedal free play but I don't think that's the problem as I can move the pedal down then feel the hyds taking affect. 

I beginning to think the flexi hose is faulty, & a part of it's internal material is acting like a one way restrictor, fine when pedal depressed to change gear [actual gear changing is fine] pedal comes back up OK but seems the hydraulic pressure is taking a bit longer to be released, as once it comes off drive is OK, but slips when next gear is required = no drive as expected. it's a bit difficult to describe if you can't drive it first hand.

 

 

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Easy to test if it's holding pressure in the slave.

Pump the pedal a few times and release, then open the bleed nipple on the slave.

If there's any retained pressure the fluid will spurt out.

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Flexi hoses do internally swell up with age and eventually block or restrict the return of brake fluid. Doesn't tend to do intermittently though.

 

 

Les

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Ralph

 

Had similar problems a couple of years ago, but only first thing in the morning in cold weather.

Turned out that I had a "slush puppy" in the hydraulics.

Accumulated water over the years was partially freezing in the cold weather slowing the return of the clutch. Felt completely normal to drive, just slipped in higher gears until everything warmed up.

Not likely to be what you have as you changed the cylinders a couple of weeks ago, unless you topped up from an open bottle of fluid. I'd be looking at the hose, or possibly master cylinder not venting the line pressure off properly.

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latest news -- this afternoon I've replaced the flexi hose with a new standard item, no leaks, bled easily, operates OK until coming off clutch after changing gear [clutch pedal fully up] clutch is still taking to long to give full drive [still slips a bit] now I wondering if I've bent the friction plate centre when gearbox & engine finally lined up & the gap closed up. I didn't check the plate would slide on the gearbox shaft splines, bit of a missed check on my part, forgot to do it, so I'm going back into the clutch housing to check if all is as it should be starting tomorrow after work, 

Thanks for the suggestions so far. :i-m_so_happy:

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Could one of the hydraulic pitons be sticking on the return? I know you replaced them but they could be faulty? What's the pedal doing?

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pedal & feel is all ok, it's not sticking & doesn't need any assistance to return to the rest position.

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Shame. I was clutching at straws to see if there was any reason for you not to split engine and box again!

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I'd suspect the master cylinder rather than the mechanical parts in the bell housing.  TRW are the new Lucas brand, but their quality is not great.

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had the slave cylinder off, it operates fine with no sticking when piston is pushed down the barrel & returns smoothly too, also took the cover plate off clutch pedal housing & the master cylinder rubber boot, rod/piston also moves both ways with no sticking, so reckon the operation is fine, but when in gearfoot off clutch pedal, the drive is still intermittent, slips when asked to accelerate through the gears & it's giving much engine breaking, so this weeekend it's coming apart again.

the only other bit I'm going to change is the short pipe from flexi hose to slave cylinder. still waiting to hear back from Llama 4x4 but I do know he is busy organising the show at donnington which is on this coming weekend.

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I have just had a major issue with my clutch.

Long story cut short,it wouldn't go into gear with the engine running,fine when not running.I went through all the same hydraulic possibilitys as you have.I took the gearbox & clutch out 4 times.

Anyhow,after advice from a well respected member on another forum,he suggested the friction plate might be slightly bent.

I changed the plate,et voila,no more problems.

Marc

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Straw grasping maybe, but is it a kevlar plate? They need breaking in and slip a bit till they do. I can't believe the plate isn't moving on the splines enough, the pressure plate springs are very strong and would surely move it enough. And you have my sympathies, you must be sick at the prospect of having to redo it.

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Based on above, if it needs bedding in try purposely slipping/riding it more than usual and see if that changes anything?

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clutch plate is a Valeo 130 heavy duty LR part UQB000130, same as the one I took out [because that was starting to slip despite only being fitted in Oct 2015] could always put it back in, 

it's not a kevlar or any other 'special' 

goes into gear fine at standstill engine on or off & while changing gear when moving, but likes to take it's time gripping & transfering the engines drive to the gearbox. 

going to make a new pipe in the morning & see what happens then as mentioned in my earlier post 

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Although you ordered the identical parts are they actually the same? A slight change in manufacturer tolerance creating an issue?

Was there any indication on the removed parts of the cause of slippage? Did you cover a lot of miles with the previous set up prior to it failing? Any contamination/bluing on the flywheel?

Apologies for the questions but if the problem was there prior to exchanging the parts and is still evident after all your above checks what else is there? Did you fit a new clutch fork and/or could it be sticking on the pivot?

weird.

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clutch fork is a Les Henson beefed up one & is in great shape, pivot inside bell housing is in good shape too, couldn't see any signs of slippage damaged on the removed clutch plate or cover, both set of parts are identical, Flywheel is good & no oil contam in bell housing, no leaks of engine or gearbox oil either.

previous set was fitted in Oct 2015 so it's done a good chunk of varied mileage. pretty sure the previous slipping was down to the release bearing seperated from it's carrier was was intact on the gearbox shaft & not cracks or bits missing.

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