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V8 end of life do you recomend TD5/99-01 as a transplant for D1


94Discovery

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On 16/02/2017 at 11:23 AM, 94Discovery said:

a Mercedes engine Om606 that have the same weight to the v8 and the same power

But not the same torque curve. The RV8 makes relatively poor numbers but the spread / flexibility is very hard to beat, and it makes a big difference in the real world. If you're trying to crawl anything it really sucks to have to keep a turbo spinning.

A low-tuned V8 that makes torque from 500rpm to 5000rpm is a very relaxing and useful thing off-road, and is easier on the drivetrain.

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6 minutes ago, FridgeFreezer said:

But not the same torque curve. The RV8 makes relatively poor numbers but the spread / flexibility is very hard to beat, and it makes a big difference in the real world. If you're trying to crawl anything it really sucks to have to keep a turbo spinning.

A low-tuned V8 that makes torque from 500rpm to 5000rpm is a very relaxing and useful thing off-road, and is easier on the drivetrain.

Going slightly off topic, but I'd love to see a torque curve comparison of the two. The 606 is very revvy for a diesel. :)

 

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Not saying it's bad, just that it's different with a turbo and/or diesel and/or different number of cylinders etc. etc. and that headline power/torque numbers are not necessarily good indicators of real-world driveability.

One of my favourite outings in the 109 was towing a twin-axle car trailer off-road through the Russian forest for many miles (looking for two idiots in a yellow car). Spent a good half hour over varied terrain from walking pace to ~40mph and didn't change gear once. When I realised I hadn't touched the gear stick for a long time I started listening to the TDi behind me and how often they were shifting.

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Given your location, the cost of fuel and the complexities and costs in changing engine type, I'd strongly advise rebuilding the V8.  As much as I like Tdis, I know a V8 is a better drive; it's only the fuel costs in the UK that made Tdi conversions prudent, but with all the extra charges for diesels now and in the pipeline, it's not worth going that route anymore.

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6 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

The VW emissions scandal has woken people up to the fact that (shock horror) with the loopholes in the emissions tests, all these seemingly low-emissions cars they've been building for the last decade are not as clean as they thought, and it's explained why pollution in cities is mysteriously a lot higher than they predicted despite being full of supposedly "clean" vehicles.

Diesels are worse for it and are falling out of favour a bit as they now look dirtier then they used to, and all the fudges they use to make them appear clean have been found out (or may be rendered far less practical if they have to actually use them ALL the time rather than only when they're on test!). Depending on how the backlash pans out and what sort of half-assed knee-jerk regulation comes out of it, future diesels may well get penalised more heavily and/or the push towards diesel may reverse. TBH none of it is likely to affect old cars unless you're travelling to a capital city that has its own regulations such as London with its Low Emission Zone.

it is weird as for north American market jeep started with the diesel or it will soon ,Nissan is putting a Cummins engine in there Titan ,Mercedes with there bluetech /urea technologies they say your exhaust emission is oxygen and water makes you want to drink it ,I know that now in Europe there is a tendency to go electricin city centers ,but whom to believe 10 years ago diesel in Europe was heaven and now it is the devil ,it sounds a conflict in interests lets shift the general population towards this and that depending on the political situation make you want to think only for your pocket and f the rest ....

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You're quite right - the environment is a highly charged issue that has most people reacting emotionally rather than intelligently, and there is a vast amount of money being made by manipulating people into buying this or that product or service based on very flakey if not down right fraudulent information.

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TBH I don't think it's a big global conspiracy.

Scientists report on a problem (EG global warming) and name various factors (CO2 etc.) that make it worse.

Environmentalists seize on it as an issue to be lobbied about, but often miss the finer points, or (more often) just demand an outcome (EG less CO2 from cars) without considering how it will be achieved.

Governments / regulators get pressured into passing some regulation about it (all new cars must emit less than X amount of CO2)

Car manufacturers simply find the quickest, cheapest, and lowest impact solution to meet the criteria - which may or may not have some tradeoff like some other emissions get worse, or the fuel economy goes down, whatever.

We've been round the same cycle numerous times over the years - now the focus has moved from CO2 to things which are directly harmful to humans because of smog in cities.

It just so happens that by the last few rounds of soup of the day, diesels looked good (lower fuel consumption, lower CO2) and now they look bad (particulates, other noxious stuff). Who knows which way it'll swing next, and at which point electric cars will actually become viable and make a whole range of engines obsolete.

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I don't believe in most conspiracies, and those I do believe are those covering up cockups, but environmentalism is a huge con job.  There are many truths but many more lies being told to make money.  Diesel was pushed before because most of us had petrols.  Now that a lot have diesel cars, there's a big enough market to make money by swinging it back the other way.  I don't doubt the harm of diesel emissions, but what went on to promote them and how VW and other manufacturers behaved was most certainly a conspiracy, one I suspect was with the knowledge and even the cooperation of the authorities until recently exposed by the press.  Who knows what concerns with modern petrol engines being suppressed now so that the driver buys a new petrol car with confidence, only to be revealed in another decade?  Most of the global warming stuff has been proven wrong and substantially changed, but they continue to bang the same drum because there are billion dollar industries depending on it, not least carbon trading - there really are billions being made for trading nothing; no product, no service, just notional "trading points".  With so much money involved, don't ever expect to find out the real science.

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My feeling is that it will become very difficult to use a diesel vehicle in the not too distant future. Area bans, higher fuel taxes and other "penalties", and ultimately maybe even the disappearance of the fuel itself. I couldn't even begin to guess how that is going to work though.

The environmental lobby appears to have forgotten about petrol engines and CO2 for the time being though.

As I see it, it is either OK, or it isn't. Charging a fee for access to certain areas does NOT make it OK. It makes it only a revenue earner and discredits the whole argument.

The environmentalists would be far better off focusing their attention on aviation, the biggest polluter of the lot. But they won't. No one NEEDS to go to Torremolinos for their holidays, or to have tomatoes imported from South Africa, or even fly to New York for "business meetings"

I think the next budget will be a good indicator of how this is going to go............

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Diesel will still be around, but it might be restricted to HGVs, tractors, fire engines and suchlike.  It'll probably just be made very expensive except for commercial users, though.   I think you're right that diesel cars will be all but eliminated, smallfry, whether it be by taxes and charges or outright bans.  Bit of a bugger for me - the first and only thing I completed on mr RRC rebuild (now in storage while I'm away) was its 300Tdi, the core of which was done by Turner Engineering, which wasn't cheap!

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I'll just have to make more bio-diesel then...

I'm always fascinated with the perverted love affair with power in 4x4 circles. Must have more power. must make drive train stronger. Must run bigger tyres. Must run stronger drive train. Must have more power...  Seems somewhat foolish. There's enough power. Too much power is fun but simply pointless in the end. Too much torque breaks traction and components. Smooth delivery is better. What Fridge said about his frolics, chasing a mouse in the woods, like a less hirsute Gruffalo, tells me he's got it right.

On the subject of OM606's, the NAD version is really quite amazing. It's torque is not quite in the 'towing a big barge covered in armour plate' category. But it pulls sweetly form nothing all the way to the best part of 6k! 134bhp at 5k, max torque at 2.2k. And no bl**dy turbo. It also runs on AOSTYPII and is smoother than Private Walker on a date.

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AOSTYPII

Any Old Sh!t That You Put In It

It's a special low cost type of fuel, beloved of the Soviet Union. The pinnacle of an engine running on this type of fuel are the YaMZ-236M2 and YaMZ-238M2; as used in URAL trucks 'back in the good old days. The 236M2 is a V6 Turbo diesel, displacing 11.2 litres. The 238M2 is a V8 NAD displacing a nuns chuff short of 15litres. These engines are reputed to be able to run on the urine of conscript soldiers who have 'had a heavy night'. If it is possible to compression ignite the fuel, they will run on it.

In this modern world of rapidly deteriorating technology, the ability for an engine to be 'hard as nails' and 'fixable with a hammer' is far more important than its ability to push out oodles of power

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6 hours ago, honitonhobbit said:

I'll just have to make more bio-diesel then...

I'm always fascinated with the perverted love affair with power in 4x4 circles. Must have more power. must make drive train stronger. Must run bigger tyres. Must run stronger drive train. Must have more power...  Seems somewhat foolish. There's enough power. Too much power is fun but simply pointless in the end. Too much torque breaks traction and components. Smooth delivery is better. 

Nope. No bio diesel either...........

I was going to start a thread about the power race.............and ask why!

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On 15/02/2017 at 4:30 PM, 94Discovery said:

Hello Gents

My V8 is dying and I am looking for a replacement engine and I am considering a td5 from the year 99 to 01 as I've read that they are the best ,

do you recommend a vendor that sells a TD5  front clip?

I am considering this engine for fuel economies/long distance travel for expedition.

 

thank you

Naji M.

I agree with all the posts about the Td5. It's a lovely engine, but would seem little to no real world gain for you and at very high cost, plus on going risk of slow parts supply.

For the record I have a 4.6 Range Rover auto. Doing short journeys and generally poor mpg style driving it's averaging 17mpg for pretty much the last 4000 miles. On a run it'll creep up to around 20mpg. I ran a Td5 Disco 2 with a manual box for bit. Drove it much more gently and did mostly longish journeys in it. It managed 26-28mpg.

A saving for sure. But maybe not as big a saving as many would make out.

 

As for V8's. Have you considered something like a Chevy LS4? The 5.3 litre engine. Pretty similar size and weight to a Rover V8. Should be plentiful in N. America and easy to pick up from a junk yard. They also make around 300hp, so a good power hike without going silly.

I believe there are adapters to make them bolt up to the Rover gearbox. So as far as swaps go, should be fairly straight forward. And well set up on EFI they should be slightly more frugal than the RV8 too.

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23 hours ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

I agree with all the posts about the Td5. It's a lovely engine, but would seem little to no real world gain for you and at very high cost, plus on going risk of slow parts supply.

For the record I have a 4.6 Range Rover auto. Doing short journeys and generally poor mpg style driving it's averaging 17mpg for pretty much the last 4000 miles. On a run it'll creep up to around 20mpg. I ran a Td5 Disco 2 with a manual box for bit. Drove it much more gently and did mostly longish journeys in it. It managed 26-28mpg.

A saving for sure. But maybe not as big a saving as many would make out.

 

As for V8's. Have you considered something like a Chevy LS4? The 5.3 litre engine. Pretty similar size and weight to a Rover V8. Should be plentiful in N. America and easy to pick up from a junk yard. They also make around 300hp, so a good power hike without going silly.

I believe there are adapters to make them bolt up to the Rover gearbox. So as far as swaps go, should be fairly straight forward. And well set up on EFI they should be slightly more frugal than the RV8 too.

I thought of the ls engine and yes there is plenty here ,yesterday was talking to my friend for the v8 swap and was thinking on installing a crower cams in so was figuring the cost and what not .

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You don't need to tune an LS in a Disco, you almost want the smallest, least-powerful one as it'll still be pushing more power and torque than even a 4.6 RV8, and a low-end relaxed one should have a lovely lazy torque spread and get very respectable MPG without needing masses of extra cooling or stressing the drivetrain.

If you go the LS route, chat up John at Speartech for an ECU + loom, absolutely top quality and you can ask him to set the tune for your requirements. You want a torque curve shaped like Ayers rock not the Himalayas.

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What sort of money are the adaptors to fit an LS onto a ZF box?

I'm 80% set on a cross bolted RV8 route but should at least have an idea how much this route would take. I'm guessing £3k for a crate engine ish? Pain to get in and running but once in I'm guessing it'll be a much easier life than running a RV8?

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Wes - in the UK it's a far less attractive prospect. Also you're better off getting an LS plus 4L60e or 4l80e if you want an auto, and then Advance Adapters I think have adapters to mount a variety of boxes to the LT230 (which is at least up to the job).

You're gonna spend a lot on shipping and customs to get one to the UK, and it's not like you can use much more power in a LR without having to upgrade everything else. The flipside is if you want more than about 300hp it's potentially cheaper to buy an LS than it is to wring the guts of an RV8 with expensive tuning parts.

Over the other side of the pond the RV8 is rare and expensive and LS's are in everything from delivery vans to drag racers so the equation tips massively the other way.

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An LS swap in the U.K. Won't be cheap. But really depends on your actual end goals. 

I like RV8's as well. Have two of them at the mo and an LS motor in a Camaro. The Rover lump is a good engine for 200-240hp. But totally not worth it IMO if you are after more power. You'll sink loads for little gain. 

LS motors are rare hear but we're fitted to the Monaro and VXR8 sold by Vauxhall. But won't be cheap. However all of these will be 350-400hp with no mods being 5.7, 6.0 or 6.2 litre. 

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