VW getting clobbered some more?

[neil110]

German fish and seafood producer Deutsche See revealed it would be suing VW over the diesel emissions scandal. Deutsche See, which leases 500 vehicles from the car manufacturer, released a statement which said an out-of-court settlement had become unachievable.

"Deutsche See only went into partnership with VW because VW promised the most environmentally friendly, sustainable mobility concept,” the statement read. German media reported that Deutsche See filed its complaint for "malicious deception" at the regional court in Braunschweig, near Volkswagen's Wolfsburg headquarters.

This is the latest litigation to hit the company after it admitted to using 'defeat devices' in some of its most popular vehicles to cheat emissions tests; making its cars appear greener than they were. Various regulators, individual owners, states and dealers have filed lawsuits against the firm, which is now required to pay settlements and fines worth £16bn in the US alone.

Thousands of British motorists launched a lawsuit last month against VW in a claim that could end up costing the carmaker billions of pounds. Mayor of London Sadiq Khan has previously called for the capital’s drivers to be compensated, including £2.5m for Transport for London in lost congestion charge payments.

Edited March 12, 2017 by neil110

[BogMonster]

Probably find they are all up to it once another couple of years has passed.

 

I can't believe they were so ****ing arrogant as to think they were going to get away with it.

[Cynic-al]

Not as if it's hurt the companies profit or reputation though. It just means they will have to do a none conformity in the environmental and sustainability iso. Just jumping on the band wagon and trying to get a bit of publicity if you ask me. 

The tests have had little resemblance to real life for as long as I can remember and stop start and hybrid technology is only another method play to the test which has little real world benefit. It's just what vw did is a little more underhand. 

Not saying what vw did was right but let the authorities deal with it.

[neil110]

Funny thing is a friend of mine mentioned all this to me a long time before VW  were "outed"  only thing was that he had heard it was BMW. Subsequently he has heard another whisper that the emission controls on another German manufacturer's diesels only work when the steering is in the straight ahead position

[simonr]

I have a 'feeling' the emissions is just the tip of a proverbial Iceberg.  As Cynic-al has alluded to, many of the other things - Stability control, ADAS, Fuel Consumption, Security could be 'tweaked' for the testing or designed to detect when they are being tested. 

The problem is, to achieve the best ratings, you give the vehicle different driving characteristics to what your marketing department might consider desirable.  As the customer you are lulled into buying a car with great ratings - that is great to drive too.  For the manufacturer it's a win-win and any 'incidents' can just be put down to driver error.  I suspect all the manufacturers are at it - and have their fingers crossed that VW will satiate the press & public's interest and desire for justice.

Si

[Daan]

I was explained about test riggin during my automotive design course - in 1996. I am amazed it took them this long to realise it. VW has been singled out, but most manufacturers are guilty to some degree.

The fuel consumption figures are determined in the same test as the emmisions. Considering the fuel consumption is about 40% out on most cars, why would the emissions be any better?

My polo bluemotion was effected as well; they reprogrammed the ecu. On the question whether I would loose power, the answer was no. The test does not take into account full throttle.... What a garbage test that is, when flat out is where you burn the most fuel? 

If they want a more realistic test, the manufacturers are going to need to make a huge leap just to make the existing cars to comply.

Daan

[AMB]

I don't see why people are so surprised at this.  It's a prime example of Goodhart's law in practice.  "When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure". 

Make low emissions a primary target and everybody looks at the cheapest way of achieving them.  In doing so they ignore the reason for the target and aim to achieve the letter of it.  You can see examples everywhere in NHS waiting lists, school exam results, employment statistics etc, etc.  When I had a company car and was taxed on the basis of emissions and RRP, I plotted stated emissions against claimed fuel consumption across a range of cars.  I would have expected to receive similar results for similar cars.  With few exceptions I did.  VW didn't stand out as different to many cars - tending to indicate that many manufacturers were probably designing cars to pass tests in the lab rather than in the real world.

I vaguely remember a subsequent press article about researchers using a sniffer on the road and following different makes of car on the roads.  Ironically VW turned out to be amongst the best in real world conditions.

[simonr]

Everyone in the industry, and probably governments have known about this all along.  The thing that changed was the press getting hold of it and tearing in to VW.  Now everyone has to take action.  However, you can bet that in 10 years, the targets / measures will be different but the fiddling will go on as before until the next scapegoat is selected.

Si

[smallfry]

Not that I am a German car fan at all, but everyone likes to see the downfall of a winner, don't we ?

Best not mention the Land Rover Pulsair system, had we ?

Pumping fresh air into the exhaust manifold to "promote complete combustion". More likely to dilute the exhaust fumes ! An inspired cheat indeed and 30 plus years old.

[Daan]

I dont think there is much of a downfall though, not according to this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35281307

And most people still buy diesel, so we all care about the environment until it costs us money.

[Ally V8]

Beside all the emissions fuss, I'm wondering when the car or van buying public are going to get fed up with the poor quality of the newer VAG models. Especially the new Transporter vans,for such an expensive bit of kit all the recent buyers of them I have spoken to have talked of breakdowns, and water ingress through door seals. One has been having continual problems with shift quality in an autobox.Not what you would expect from a Premium maker...

Recently diagnosed poor compression on a 40,000m VW Touran,needed an engine rebuild,not uncommon I was told by the garage who were lumbered with the work.

[Cynic-al]

Have to say I've never enjoyed driving diesels and now they have all the green technology on they've lost their edge for simplicity and reliability too. I've always found an extra tenner a week on fuel easier to stomach than a £1000 bill on a 5 year old car which is what I ended up with on my citroen.

My dmax has a regeneration that it seems to do about every 500 miles and my vw will have adblue when it arrives.

 

Don't know why you can't just have a nice petrol v8 lol

[Cynic-al]

5 minutes ago, Ally V8 said:

Beside all the emissions fuss, I'm wondering when the car or van buying public are going to get fed up with the poor quality of the newer VAG models. Especially the new Transporter vans,for such an expensive bit of kit all the recent buyers of them I have spoken to have talked of breakdowns, and water ingress through door seals. One has been having continual problems with shift quality in an autobox.Not what you would expect from a Premium maker...

Recently diagnosed poor compression on a 40,000m VW Touran,needed an engine rebuild,not uncommon I was told by the garage who were lumbered with the work.

Yes they don't get a good review any more, my boss had no end of problems with his audi. I'm hoping my vw will be the Friday car which for vw seems to mean it'll be a good un lol

[Soren Frimodt]

10 hours ago, Ally V8 said:

Beside all the emissions fuss, I'm wondering when the car or van buying public are going to get fed up with the poor quality of the newer VAG models. Especially the new Transporter vans,for such an expensive bit of kit all the recent buyers of them I have spoken to have talked of breakdowns, and water ingress through door seals. One has been having continual problems with shift quality in an autobox.Not what you would expect from a Premium maker...

Recently diagnosed poor compression on a 40,000m VW Touran,needed an engine rebuild,not uncommon I was told by the garage who were lumbered with the work.

When you look back in history, the situation we are in kind of reminds me of the fall of British car/bike manufacturing in the 70'es. When the Japs took over.

Here in Denmark you get 2 years warranty on a VW, which should be German thoroughness and all the other blah.. But on a KIA you get 7 years warranty! And the car is even cheaper to begin with. You really have to be fanatic to buy a VW, much like those last ones to buy Triumphs, BSA's etc etc.

[Snagger]

You get a lot more luxuries on a Kia, too.  The German car industry is on the brink, and the analogy to the British and Japanese in the 70s is a good one.

[neil110]

A friend had a VW passat diesel of some description. He bought it because the previous passat had been a reasonable car. Though he still prefers the montego estate he had for its engine and various other features. I digress. The 2nd Passat suffered broken springs on the back quite early in its life and had come to the stage where it was due for a clutch and timing belt. Local dealer quoted him a price which was just shy of half the value of the car. He was also informed that he would have to have a new water pump when they did the timing belt because "they always fail." He was also less than happy to find that he car communicated with VW dealers in real time so they would know when to send him a letter to bring it in for a service. 

He now has a B reg 110 with a 300tdi in it, whilst his wife has a 300 tdi 90

I had a Golf blue motion as a hire car on one occasion. I don't think I have ever driven a more uncomfortable car, the seat was like a cloth covered lump of concrete and gave me chronic back pain, to the extent I was barely able to walk after driving a couple of hundred miles. Oh and it was GUTLESS, absolutely gutless.

Current GF drives a Kia ceed and it is a delightful car, both to drive and to relax in the knowledge that if anything ever breaks it is covered under warranty. Her previous Kia developed a leak in the AC condenser at 6 years and 11 months. Dealer replaced it with no quibbles at all

Edited March 13, 2017 by neil110

[neil110]

12 hours ago, Cynic-al said:

Have to say I've never enjoyed driving diesels and now they have all the green technology on they've lost their edge for simplicity and reliability too. I've always found an extra tenner a week on fuel easier to stomach than a £1000 bill on a 5 year old car which is what I ended up with on my citroen.

My dmax has a regeneration that it seems to do about every 500 miles and my vw will have adblue when it arrives.

 

Don't know why you can't just have a nice petrol v8 lol

Err a bit more than a tenner sometimes. At one stage had a 110 with a 300tdi and a 110 with a V8. Had a trip to Lisbon and back. Given the price differential that then existed between diesel and petrol and the fact that the 300 was 20mpg better than the V8. The cost differential was somewhere in the region of £1200. Bizarrely the 300 would have cost more on the ferry, because it was a hard top, whereas the V8 was a CSW.

I remember the drive back up through France to catch the train. we were in Albi (because I wanted to go to a favourite hotel/restaurant,) it is something like 620 miles to the tunnel and it p1ssed down every inch of the way. I also got a very old fashioned look from security, at the checkpoint, because I had something like 15 jerry cans of very cheap diesel in the back, from Andorra

[missingsid]

Here in Denmark you get 2 years warranty on a VW, which should be German thoroughness and all the other blah.. But on a KIA you get 7 years warranty! And the car is even cheaper to begin with.

 

Or, their prepared to loose mony to promote the brand?

I bought a cheap Chinese parking aid sensor replacement part for my Disco 3, all thier parts come with a lifetime guarantee at a third of the price of a gen LR ones.

Is it any better for the lifetime bit, not at all it is absolute carp and causes loads of issues but the company will give you a new one for free.

[Dave W]

I have a 12 year old T5 that I'm converting into a camper van. I've never been a fan of VW or had any real interest in them but we wanted a camper van and the T5 is the best option for that size although, as a result, they also keep their value which is both a good and bad thing. I have to say though that, especially when compared with the Land Rovers of a similar age, the VW is really well put together and of a much higher quality which for a commercial van should be a surprise you'd have thought ! I'll be honest, I\d expected a van to be pretty "agricultural", built to suit a purpose rather than put together with any real attention to detail.

When I'm working underneath it there's not a sign of rust, despite it spending the last 5 years of it's life in Blackpool. When you pull off a protective cover on the underside you find factory paintwork, unblemished and coated with some form of protective wax coating. The wiring and connectors are completely untouched by corrosion, I can pull off a rear tail light unit and, despite it being completely external to the vehicle, the connector and the light unit are corrosion free. When I stripped the interior I didn't know what to expect under the sheets of ply and flooring, expecting to find areas of rusted floor where water had seeped in and pooled with no escape. What I actually found was a body and interior that was pretty much just as it left the factory, not a rust spot or blemish in site.

It's not perfect but when comparing it with other 12 year old and newer vehicles I've had with a Land Rover badge on it it's so much better it's been a real eye opener to the difference that attention to detail and, perhaps better workmanship, can make to the longevity of a vehicle.

They have their issues and just like our beloved green oval vehicles, if you read the vehicle specific forums and the horror stories that abound there are a number that are common problems. Some of which they share with Land Rover vehicles... 5 cylinder turbo diesel, highly tuned, has a propensity to warp exhaust manifolds especially when remapped, sound familiar at all ??? The VVT is nice though, surprised more people haven't tried to fit them to Defender TD5s.

I've said before (before I owned a VW) that VW were unfairly targeted over the emissions and pointed out that Land Rover and probably every manufacturer had been doing similar tricks for years, it's what good engineers do when you set an unrealistic test as a required target for a specific set of circumstances. You aim to pass the test not necessarily meet the goal behind the test. Hell, even our school system is obsessed with that these days, teaching kids to pass a specific test whilst not necessarily teaching them anything outside passing a test.

[Cynic-al]

3 hours ago, neil110 said:

Err a bit more than a tenner sometimes.

Obviously it depends on the car and trip, but for most people who buy a diesel to potter to work and back it isn't much extra per week compared to the like for like petrol but with the additional hassle of erg, dpf, sensors, regens etc etc

Dave W - I think that applies to any car made in the last 12 years when you compare it to a defender doesn't it?  

When we were chaging out van at work we looked at sprinters, crafters etc but ended up getting another relay despite on going (dealer caused) electrical problems with the old one. Why? The RWD vans have a high floor making them harder to load and losing you head room and they're heavier (due to their better build quality) so can't carry as much. Plus we got a brand new relay with bulkhead, ply lined, sat nav, tracker, aircon & DAB for under £14k +vat. The sprinter was going to be over £20k for a lesser spec. So sometimes crummy is good

We hired a low roof transporter to do an exhibition in Munich last year and I have to say it was the most car like van I've ever been in. OK the plastic is still hard and other bits let you know your still in a van but I think if you added a bit of comfort it would be ok. I looked at getting a combi but a nice one is about £50k

[UdderlyOffroad]

On 3/13/2017 at 6:59 AM, Snagger said:

You get a lot more luxuries on a Kia, too.  The German car industry is on the brink, and the analogy to the British and Japanese in the 70s is a good one.

 

Indeed.  Having been in and out of many different hire cars over the last 5 years of employment, I've noticed a definite decrease in the build quality of VAG group cars and a definite increase in the build quality of Kias especially.

I hope the Germans pick it up, and who knows we might even have a sensible discussion in the press on the merits of a test system that bear little to no resemblance to real life.  Given the parallels with school league tables, not to mention the chattering urban middle classes already thoughtlessly parroting the oversimplified 'Diesels bad!' mantra*, I don't hold out much hope

[elbekko]

On 13-3-2017 at 1:32 PM, Dave W said:

When I'm working underneath it there's not a sign of rust, despite it spending the last 5 years of it's life in Blackpool. When you pull off a protective cover on the underside you find factory paintwork, unblemished and coated with some form of protective wax coating. The wiring and connectors are completely untouched by corrosion, I can pull off a rear tail light unit and, despite it being completely external to the vehicle, the connector and the light unit are corrosion free. When I stripped the interior I didn't know what to expect under the sheets of ply and flooring, expecting to find areas of rusted floor where water had seeped in and pooled with no escape. What I actually found was a body and interior that was pretty much just as it left the factory, not a rust spot or blemish in site.

Sounds like the average P38. LR can do it as well.

As for the emissions stuff. Of course everyone builds for the test. But there's a difference between having a bit of the map optimised for the emissions test and full on disabling emissions when it isn't doing the test (which is what VW was doing in the US).

Emissions figures aren't very realistic for daily use, but they are repeatable. I know with my Mercedes C220 in daily use I get much more than the quoted fuel consumption, but I've also had it right on that doing 90km/h behind a trailer on the motorway.

[Cynic-al]

That's how I always look at the test, it's a way of comparing 2 cars not a sign of what your likely to get.

[neil110]

This is like the gift that just keeps on taking.

https://global.handelsblatt.com/companies-markets/suspended-manager-sues-vw-over-bonus-733950?ref=MzQ4NDA1&utm_source=outbrain&utm_medium=contentmarketing&utm_campaign=outbrain-FR&utm_content=Suspended Manager Sues VW Over Bonus&utm_term=00c113b690981ffd789b07592a5cfdb0d7

https://global.handelsblatt.com/companies-markets/fresh-storm-brewing-over-vw-733745

https://global.handelsblatt.com/companies-markets/audi-boss-feels-the-heat-728022