Pete Attryde Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 Personally I'm not convinced it is a starter motor problem, As I said before mine when EDC used to do the exact same thing and now it's non-EDC having only changed the pump (and correcting the timing) ie the same starter motor, mine starts almost instantly from cold with no heater plug useage, even over the last few reasonably cold mornings (approx -3c). I think you may be looking at another EDC fault or it's related to the dead spot on the throttle pedal. Pete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotal Posted December 13, 2007 Author Share Posted December 13, 2007 Humm... That puts a twist on the tale? Any thoughts from the Starter Motor People Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 Yes. The EDC system is electronic (obviously, otherwise it would be called NEDC) and thus 1) It starts less well than a proper pump does 2) Being electronic it won't like big voltage drops (as is produced by a dubious and hungry starter motor, just to pick a completely random example) and therefore 3) it will be adversely effected by both 1) and 2) and will be more likely not to start... Change the injector pump if you like and put a proper one on, then you will 1) have fixed your throttle pedal problem, because it won't have a stupid sensor on it any more 2) start, because as long as there is enough voltage to crank it over and hold the stop solenoid open, it will go and 3) have spent about ten times as much as a new starter motor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Attryde Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 Yes. The EDC system is electronic (obviously, otherwise it would be called NEDC) and thus 1) It starts less well than a proper pump does 2) Being electronic it won't like big voltage drops (as is produced by a dubious and hungry starter motor, just to pick a completely random example) and therefore 3) it will be adversely effected by both 1) and 2) and will be more likely not to start... Change the injector pump if you like and put a proper one on, then you will 1) have fixed your throttle pedal problem, because it won't have a stupid sensor on it any more 2) start, because as long as there is enough voltage to crank it over and hold the stop solenoid open, it will go and 3) have spent about ten times as much as a new starter motor I agree about with most of the above. I must admit I fitted a second hand pump which was £250 so only about twice the price of a decent starter motor. When mine was EDC it would spin over at a normal speed (which to me implied the starter was working reasonably well) but would not catch or would maybe start on one cylinder and eventually splutter into life. I don't dispute that it may well have been a volt drop problem but I think that the issue may be with the EDC wiring not specifically the starter motor causing an unusually high load. To be honest I admire the perseverance of some on here with the EDC system as I just wimped out pulled all the unreliable electronics out and put a proper pump in, which then cured the starting issues and the bad running, job done. Cost me a bit and a day to swap the pump over and change the cam-belt, but I have not (touches wood frantically) had any issues with the thing since. Pete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotal Posted December 13, 2007 Author Share Posted December 13, 2007 I just had a thought, basically your saying that the starter motor is at fault (not raceface120 - everyone else ), and that when the starter motor gets cold it struggles to turn? Is there anyway I could warm the starter motor up first? I was thinking warm water over it - although it's slightly difficult to get to - once warmed it should then start shouldn't it??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull Bar Cowboy Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 I haven’t read the whole thread mainly because I don’t want to lose the will to live………. However, its seems as though (from Tony’s comment) that the starter motor has historically been changed ………… You are saying that the starter motor spins OK (ish) but the engine refuses to fire …….correct ? You are also saying that you have an EDC pump ….correct ? So, either your disco is an auto or a late 300 manual………correct ? It was mentioned is passing about a week ago from a reliable source, that the very late EDC pumps have some sort of immobiliser control built into them ……….. this was from a small but very reliable independent workshop and this particular fault caused much head scratching ………….but IIRC it was easily fixed once the problem was correctly identified…………I will find out more…………………. Certainly, the L200’s and Nissan Navara’s have immobiliser pumps….. and they are a regular candidate for trouble (particularly the L200)………… Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 It could be your ignition switch, If faulty then the drop in voltages to the soleniod means a poor connection and thus the starter turns slowly and not fast enough to kick the unit into life, The answer here could be to remove and strip the entire dashboard and wiring looom and test each of the connections especially around the ignition switch for a correct voltage and or earth, greasing those connectors and checking the firmness of the connection and then reassembly of the wiring loom, plugs sockets connectors and dashboard. Prob won't fix it either, whereas buying a new starter and just fitting it would most likley in the view of many here - so can you borrow a known good if you won't / don't wnat to risk a new one ? Its a couple of bolts and a couple of connectors Job done..... and no more life will need to slip as it has / is from so many for so long Please buy and fit a starter - and save lives - you know it makes sense A starter isn't just for christmas - its for life Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotal Posted December 13, 2007 Author Share Posted December 13, 2007 Hi Ian, as a quick summary on my vehicle, the starter hasn't been changed, the battery has been, it is a 95 300tdi Auto with EDC. Later models had an immobiliser on the stop solonoid - a black box which covers it and makes it harder to start the vehicle without the keys. Mine doesn't have that immobiliser. The starter motor spins quite well and it will keep spinning for ages but if you crack of the injector pipes - no fuel is coming through, if I connect another battery to give it more amps then the starter turns faster and fuel flows. It only ever fails on the first start of the day, I got home at 9.30pm last night, left the car for 11 hours quite sheltered, then it failed to start at 8.30am (approx -3 degrees) Got to work - left it all day in a open spot for 9.5 hours and the starter turned quite slowly (slower than in the morning) but it started straight up. This is always the case every day. I would have said the car was colder tonight than this morning, in the morning there was a bit of ice on the bonnet, this evening there was ice all over the car. Another fault I have with the EDC which may be related is that if it's warm it won't start with glow plugs. If I leave the car to cool down fully it has to have glow plugs to start, if the car is remotley warm (ie the temp needle moves up at all) then I have to turn the key all the way quickly if the glow plug light comes on for more than a split second then the starter just spins and no fuel comes out - in exactly the same way as when it's cold. It's easily fixed when warm by turning the keys off, then straight away turning them all the way to start it up again. The other fault is the TPS which goes out of range at a certain point, but that's another story and I think it's unrelated Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotal Posted December 13, 2007 Author Share Posted December 13, 2007 It could be your ignition switch, If faulty then the drop in voltages to the soleniod means a poor connection and thus the starter turns slowly and not fast enough to kick the unit into life, The answer here could be to remove and strip the entire dashboard and wiring looom and test each of the connections especially around the ignition switch for a correct voltage and or earth, greasing those connectors and checking the firmness of the connection and then reassembly of the wiring loom, plugs sockets connectors and dashboard. Prob won't fix it either, whereas buying a new starter and just fitting it would most likley in the view of many here - so can you borrow a known good if you won't / don't wnat to risk a new one ? Its a couple of bolts and a couple of connectors Job done..... and no more life will need to slip as it has / is from so many for so long Please buy and fit a starter - and save lives - you know it makes sense A starter isn't just for christmas - its for life Nige - I'm just not 100% convinced, anyway what else would you do with your time?? I'm keeping you entertained - giving you something to read every day - just think how much a book would cost, I must be saving you £2.99 Nope can't think of a known good one I can borrow, unless anyone wants to offer!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 Oh, 1 last thing Please tell us your Water pump is ok, Don't think we could menatlly cope if that was a prob too Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Henson Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 I've got a brand new Bosch one and a good 2nd hand Valeo one here. You can't borrow them, just thought I would be annoying. I'm keeping you entertained - giving you something to read every day - just think how much a book would cost, I must be saving you £2.99 You do know there are better things in life? Les. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 I suggest checking the connection between the seat and the steering wheel because that has also been known to cause all sorts of problems if it is faulty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull Bar Cowboy Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 The starter motor spins quite well and it will keep spinning for ages but if you crack of the injector pipes - no fuel is coming through, if I connect another battery to give it more amps then the starter turns faster and fuel flows. Ok .....................now I understand .......................... The symptoms you describe are indeed that of a tired starter motor .................. to confirm it, please could you use a digital mutimeter to read the battery voltage, whilst the engine is being cranked ............ this should be on a cold morning after the vehicle has stood overnight ........... My guess is that the starter is drawing too much current and the voltage is dropping low enough for the stop solenoid to drop out, thus shutting down the fuel supply...... This type of fault would be more evident the colder it gets, as the starter has more work to do, due the the oil being colder and thicker............. Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotal Posted December 13, 2007 Author Share Posted December 13, 2007 My guess is that the starter is drawing too much current and the voltage is dropping low enough for the stop solenoid to drop out, thus shutting down the fuel supply...... That might be true, but I removed the stop solonoid a month or so ago (well the plunger and spring) so it definatley can't be that, it's just not there!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white90 Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 Mine is a genuine L/R one (not a copy in a dodgy placcy bag/in the wrong box from fleabay) you are welcome to come and try it in your Disco the fuel cost may put you off but the offer is there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithjh Posted December 14, 2007 Share Posted December 14, 2007 Look you know that you have had enough of this hobbible Land Rover, and the sleepless nights its causing you, so do mthe decent thing and accept my £50 for it and go to the pub, i will then fit a new starter and sell it on flea-bay for umpteen zillion pounds. Regards Keith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IainDB Posted December 16, 2007 Share Posted December 16, 2007 I had the same problem recently. Only difference I was stuck at work at 9 at night. Worse than being stuck at home!!! After much swearing and kicking the tyres I robbed one of works ford transits of it's battery. Still in there 3 weeks later and still starting fine, the battery has a better cranking rating then the cheap halfords one. But good earths always help!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotal Posted December 20, 2007 Author Share Posted December 20, 2007 Just a quick update, I seem to have fixed the starting problem... but you won't like the result!! Since messing on Saturday it's started perfectly every morning, and it's been quite cold - this morning proved it for me when at -5 degrees outside it started better than the focus TDCI. I haven't changed anything - all I have done is unplug the ECU and plug it back in a few times, which seems to have fixed 3 problems: 1 - It now starts in the cold 2 - It now starts using glow plugs when warm 3 - The CEL doesn't come on every few minutes (although it has come on twice) Downside is 4 days of perfect behaviour later and it now appears that the lift pump has gone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white90 Posted December 20, 2007 Share Posted December 20, 2007 I'll give you £20 for the spare starter motor then Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted December 20, 2007 Share Posted December 20, 2007 Corrosion on the ECU terminals is a likely cause then, maybe doing that cleaned up the connections a bit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotal Posted December 20, 2007 Author Share Posted December 20, 2007 yep - I think some electrical cleaner is called for - stupid electrics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinkbeef Posted December 24, 2007 Share Posted December 24, 2007 Hello I just got this Disco (my first (failed to notice the “for gods sake put this down and buy a Mitsibushy” sticker)). Anyway I have a new Starter Motor fitted by previous owner 1 month ago, and a new battery fitted by me yesterday. 1991, 200TDI, Manual. The problem I have is the starter motor turns very slow, when I use jump leads it still turns slow. The engine will always fire up when I get it to spin, but it just turns over very slow on the starter motor. I can leave the lights on full beam for a couple of hours and the battery will be fine, but when I engage the starter it turns over real slow. It reminds me of a faulty starter motor, that earth's out. I have noticed there are no earth straps from the starter bolts to the battery. Any ideas, would a new starter wear after a month. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted December 25, 2007 Share Posted December 25, 2007 A bad earth somewhere would be my guess if the battery and starter motor are new. Never rule out a brand new part completely though "just because it is new" - everything has x% of failure rate even right out of the box! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinkbeef Posted December 25, 2007 Share Posted December 25, 2007 OK, i found the eirth strap to the starter motor cleaned it up and charged the old battery which came from it, and the bugger turns over as normal. 10 times in a row it started no problems. I checked the charging system and the alternator seems to not be charging, so thats next. All i need now is swimming trunks, googles, snorkel, flippers and im ready to drive sail this sub. Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
munkymush Posted December 29, 2007 Share Posted December 29, 2007 check ya glow plugs... if they are ok .. drop test the battery see if it holds 9 volts under load ... if your leads + earth is ok you have to suspect your starter moter..... good luck glenn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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