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Megasquirt Options


jsstevo

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OK guys,

We're finally going for EFI on our Comp Safari racer and are using the 3.9 EFI system on a 4.6 V8. We now have a v3.57 MS unit and a 14CUX as a converter. Are plan is to run MS for fuel only as Phase 1, learn about MS, and then Phase 2 is moving to Spark with an EDIS 8 unit. We then have the possibility of putting a Thor manifold on as Phase 3 if we wish to, as it should give more grunt at the lower end, but Phase 3 could be a long way off!

So, I have been speaking to istruggle2gate11 and we plan to have a look at his motor before starting our install to get a look at one in action. He's also going to give us a hand with tuning (hopefully!).

After speaking to istruggle2gate11 he has advised us to go straight to Fuel and Spark (EDIS 8) as it will be easier to setup. This makes us very nervous as we're only just taking the step away from SU Carbs, moving out of our caves and started making fire! Grunt Grunt!!!

So, what do you guys think then?

Option 1 - Phased approach. Phase 1 = fuel, Phase 2 = Fuel and spark

Option 2 - Straight to Fuel and spark

All / any thoughts are very welcome.

Cheers!

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So, I have been speaking to istruggle2gate11 and we plan to have a look at his motor before starting our install to get a look at one in action. He's also going to give us a hand with tuning (hopefully!).

After speaking to istruggle2gate11 he has advised us to go straight to Fuel and Spark (EDIS 8) as it will be easier to setup.

Just a little edit:

I dont mean it will be any easier to set up (but it really is not a lot more work to add spark), as mentioned, I set mine up with fuel and dizzy, got it running, ran it for 1 hour then connected the spark.

So this logical step proves the fuel, then will allow you to prove the spark. My argument is, that this system is so tuneable that your missing out not going to edis8.

As an absolute minimum i would install the system with all wires, trigger wheel, vr sensor etc in place, then you when you feel the time is right, change over.

As I mentioned to you, I ran squirt and spark with the dizzy as backup, never ever touched the dizzy, so it was cut down to just an oil pump driver.

Ive never looked back!

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Like FF, i'd recommend option 2.

I went for the direct coil drive instead of EDIS8, but i think more folk are running EDIS8.

On mine I went for this straight from carbs.. and a total newbie (a few months before i started the conversion i wasn't entirely sure what a plenum was :huh: ) i couldn't have done MS without this forum :) let us know how you get on.

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Stevo - depending where you are you could always pop down here to have a nose over my setup if it's closer.

Hes my friend :P

Stevo, Fridge knows 1000x more about MS than I do (he built my ecu :wub: ) and if you do ever find yourself that far south, hes worth a visit (dont forget translator and travel rug ;) ).

Like FF, i'd recommend option 2.

I went for the direct coil drive instead of EDIS8, but i think more folk are running EDIS8.

As did I tom, but i never quite cured the reset problems of the squirt and spark, not had a single one since going edis - so Ive jumped the fence.

I couldn't have done MS without this forum :) let us know how you get on.

Here, Here ;)

That was the reason i asked Stevo to post this question, there is a very informed minority of MS users on here who understand our requirements.

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Ok then.

If we were to change our plans to Spark via EDIS 8, what would we need different? An EDIS 8 unit I take it for starters. Where could we get one from? (If a scrapper, what were they in). What type of trigger wheel, etc.

Also what would we need to do to our MS unit. It's the v3.57. Do the inputs / outputs for spark just go through the main socket that connects to our pass through 14CUX??

One last question, where do you plug a Wideband into the MS? Does this get wired into the main socket that connects to our pass through 14CUX too? I was expecting a separate socket.

Cheers!

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Option 2 -No doubt.

I did it in steps,

I did spark 1st Via Megajolt and what a difference being able to have your spark and advance to match the engine and not just what the dizzy decided to just shove out :)

Eventually I like you bit the bullet overcame my panick and did full MS spark and fuel

Should have done this 1st time around - although the route I did take meant I learnt a LOT !

Don't forget if you do come 'darnsarf' whilst you may need the Translation Guide and blanket, best to take off the flat cap and leave the ferret at home :P

Nige

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Ok then.

If we were to change our plans to Spark via EDIS 8, what would we need different? An EDIS 8 unit I take it for starters. Where could we get one from? (If a scrapper, what were they in). What type of trigger wheel, etc.

Also what would we need to do to our MS unit. It's the v3.57. Do the inputs / outputs for spark just go through the main socket that connects to our pass through 14CUX??

One last question, where do you plug a Wideband into the MS? Does this get wired into the main socket that connects to our pass through 14CUX too? I was expecting a separate socket.

Cheers!

Who built your ECU?

Edis 8 = Mr FridgeFreezer (he has stock)

Trigger wheel = Trigger Wheels - Many users of them on here, good quality, reasonable price.

The 14cux will be dropped 100%, could you post details / pictures of this pass through?

What wideband sensor are you using?

Fridge has the stage!

Best to take off the flat cap and leave the ferret at home :P

1st chuckle of the day :lol:

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I'll try and take some photo's tonight. The MS was built by Mr Ringwood the he also created the 14CUX thing. It is basically a 14CUX with the a hole out of the back where the wires come out of, into the plug that goes into the MS. I think its just so that we could use the 14CUX Loom and plug still. It also meant that if the MS failed, we could just plug the AFM back in and put a standard 14CUX ECU back on. Confidence!

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I have EDIS8's, forum price is £40. Coil packs & VR sensor from any 4-pot Ford in the scrappy - obviously you need two coil packs though, and get the HT leads too as they have special ends which are lovely and waterproof, and the coil pack brackets save at least some fabrication when you come to mount them.

You run a wideband sensor into the same input you'd run the narrowband one, obviously this kinda depends on how Phil's built your 14CUX box thing as to what wires go where.

You will need to get the ECU modified for the EDIS signals which is why I suggested just going for it out of the box, it's not difficult although the V3.57 is surface-mount so it could be fiddly. Basically instead of getting a great big kick from the coil every time something sparks, the ECU is tweaked to look for the nice clean ~12v signal (PIP) from the EDIS and to send back a ~5v timing signal (SAW) to it. Phil or I can modify it.

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I would say definitely option 2 ………………….

The RV8 is an easy spark map, we just need to know a little more about your engine like Cams, CR, & Heads.

A few of us here did it the other way round and went for sparks first followed by fuel, however, the improved sparks really showed up just how bad the OEM system was :angry: and MS fuel was installed very quickly !

Tuning of the spark map is quite quick and easy ………….. tuning of the fuel map is a two stage affair. To get the engine running reasonably (and I mean to a state where you can competitively race it) is also quite a quick and easy process. Getting that extra 1% for perfection takes a little longer and is more of an iterative process, but is quite a pleasurable task once you have a good grasp of what is happening.

:)

Ian

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Basically if we do the British Championship (and it's looking like we will), we need the motor to be reliable. We're going to be racing all over the country and we will have to finish the races and if we have any problems we need to fix it.

Now you all may be saying 'Spark is the answer', but what do we do if the EDIS 8 packs up? We don't know about this at the moment. But if the MS unit packs up, we can unplug our 14CUX/MS converter bit and plug in a 3.9 or other (tvr, etc.) 14CUX to get us to the end of an event with only having to put the AFM back in.

We have a good motor, a reliable motor and one of the best drivers but when we're racing against teams/motors with big budgets, really big engines and very (very, very) expensive motors that will beat us if they finish. We have to rely on the driver driving very well and finishing. This will be our answer to doing well in the Championship. The unknown and unfixable (for us) is what scares us!

This may be unknown and unfixable (for us) now, but not in the future and who knows when that will be (3 months / 6 months / 12 months)? We many then look at the Spark.

Or we go up to visit Rog, he convinces us the best way to go is Spark (EDIS 8), and we do it. Who knows! :D

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EDIS8s apparently are a HUGE SPENDY $$$$$$$$$ cost new at a USA Dealers,

However, I seem to remember Ford spending 20 MILLION $s on R&D and they are gel packed and frankly do not go wrong, - thats why Ford USA scrappies have them selling for so little $ compared with new.

As such for £40squids UK you can have spare (as I do B) ) that you (and I :huh: ) will prob never ever use but gives me (and you :lol:) Peace of Mind.

Thats plus a spare fully loaded / programmed test MS ECU a spare CTS and spare MAT sensor and VR Sensor (all small light and cheap) you can "Switch off and remove" the lamda when racing, and thats your spares package ??

If you think about it there is less than a Lucarse system, if you wiring is sound then you have the bits should anything fail,

With a PC as well you can suss faults quick too,...........ie... I shoved in a known 'broken' CTS there was NO LINE OUTPUT at all on MLV :lol: ...sort of like a neon sign saying "Cooeee Here" :)

Fridge may even do a deal for 2 as you need 2x EDIS8s but just 1 wiring pigtail :)

Nige

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First off, the MS and EDIS8 are very reliable - apart from people crossing wires during installs or other stupid mistakes I'm not aware of any MS that's ever just failed of it's own accord. Ford spent something like £12m developing the EDIS setup and it too is incredibly reliable, it's been fitted to thousands, probably millions of vehicles worldwide.

Bear in mind that the EDIS is 10+ years younger technology than the 14CUX setup and the MS is around 20 years more advanced. The MS is also designed to cater for anything, so running a silly old RV8 is not putting any part of it under any stress. Neither of them were made by Lucas or Land Rover either :P

If you're really worried, carry a spare ECU and EDIS8 module, I'll wager you can do that for less cash than carrying a spare good AFM and Mark Adams ECU. You also have the diagnostic advantage with MS, you can plug a laptop in and see exactly what the ECU sees which could save a whole load of pratting about swapping bits in the first place.

I think Nige's experience is that Lambda sensors don't like being bombarded with rocks at a million miles per hour and can fail with a big impact, but if you tune the ECU and then set it so that losing the lambda won't be an issue you're laughing.

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You are a difficult man to convince!

Trust US - or worst case, buy a few spares and sell them on ebay in six months time B)

Now I say the following with all due respect, but I truely believe you will not abuse the EFi side of the vehicle as much as I do. I totally understand you motor is much more stressed than mine will ever be, especially the mechanicals, but as I see it, the biggest issue for you and the MS installation is severe vibration. As Phil built your MS, his work is good, proberbly as good as it comes (save Fridge), so all you have to ensure is that the wiring and any connectors used are A1 and of good quality.

Where, in my application, I trial and "play" a lot, as Im sure youre aware, the most silly things tend to get done on play days, from falling off cliffs, rolling to submerging. So, proberbly less vibration, but more general abuse.

Now if Lucarse components can stand what you do, then Im 100% sure that MS and edis will with ease. Lucarse died withion hours of meeting Kirton Quarry!

The following are pictures of my MS being abused and still working (for a long time my MS was stupidly installed on the dash!) Typically, the top was removed from the ecu and to let it dry naturally whilst still driving.

Image008.jpg

S5000152.jpg

and a poor video (mate on roof)

clicky

This pathetic bit of ingress killed my Lucarse ECU instantly:

pb2.jpg

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FF - We're in the Midlands so it's a long way to see you. We did however have a look around your motor at Sodbury when we met up with you and Bill.

So, IF we were to go down the EDIS8 Spark route, and I'm now trying to convince the driver it may be a good idea, I need to start getting hold of some kit. Please can you therefore confirm my list below contains everything:-

1 X EDIS8 (£40 from FF)

1 X 36-1 Toothed Trigger Wheel (trigger-wheels.com)

2 X 4-pot Ford Coil Pack

1 X VR sensor (from 4-pot Ford?)

8 X HT leads from Ford

Anything else?

Oh, I'll also have to find out about the MS-ECU mods that will be needed from Phil.

On the coil packs, is there much difference between the 1st and 2nd generation ones? Which should we use?

Noticed some kits available at trigger-wheels.com They look quite good. Could then get some spares from the scrap yard.

Used £44.99 (£57.49 with new sensor and connector)

Coilpack kit for 8 cylinder engines. Includes pair of coilpacks, coilpack connectors, and a VR crank sensor with connector.

Cheers!

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dont ever get it from M-Tech auto, im still waiting after paying them back in sept :(

Get your money back NOW those guys are cowboys and effectively boycotted on the MS forums, Bill has had some of their work come his way for repair and it's truly shocking. I'd strongly advise that if your ECU does turn up, you post it to me and I'll give it a look over FOC as they seem incapable of even basic electronic assembly.

Stevo:

You also need a lambda sensor & bung to weld into the exhaust, I tend to cut a section of exhaust pipe off a scrapper with the sensor still in it, usually pay about £5-10. 3-wire or 4-wire sensor is what you want (this will be normal narrowband heated type).

VR sensor can come from almost anything, Ford ones are easy enough to get to, you may need a Torx bit to undo it though.

I paid about £20 total for four coil packs, a pile of HT leads and a handful of VR sensors last time I went to the scrappy. They're all pretty reliable, check coil packs for corrosion on the connectors / HT towers. You want Gen1 packs as they have the nice locking clip on the HT leads which makes them very waterproof.

Phil should know what needs doing to the ECU for EDIS.

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VR sensor from a ford 4 pot is fine, mine is the one off a 1.3 mk3 fiesta, if anything go for a later one off a cvh engine rather than the Endura one.

I paid 10 for 4 coil packs and 2 vr sensor from the local scrappy.

Halfords hotwires and adaptors are superb for the money and come in staged lengths of 50mm.

Inlet temp sensor?

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