geoffbeaumont Posted August 17, 2005 Share Posted August 17, 2005 ...no, really, I'm up in the Lake District with much better things to do than sit at a computer - but the Landies are up to their usual tricks Firstly, mine ('93 3.9V8): I arrived up here after the drive from Birmingham and noticed a few whisps of steam coming from the exhaust. Coolant was low, and a dose of Bars Leaks has stopped it's misbehaviour, so I guess my head gasket is on the way out. I've got a day off work after I get back, so I was thinking about ordering all the bits and doing it then. Which parts do I need - head gasket, obviously, I'm guessing there're a few other seals I'll have to break to get at it (don't have access to the manuals up here)? What about tools? Are there any other parts I should replace as a matter of course while I'm in there? Next up, Jimbob's Rangie ('92 3.9V8): Dead head gasket (he knew that when he bought it), but he dosed it with ceramic sealant and since then it's overheated. He's been told by his mechanic that he'll need new heads because of that. I don't think the guy is taking him for a ride as he's advised him not to bother repairing it but to run it until it's properly dead then get rid of the car, but is his advice correct? I'm not too sure how much work is involved in doing a head gasket - would it be reasonable to do one or both cars (I'd have two pairs of hands if it was both) in a day, never having done one before? What's accepted wisdom on the parts (ie. are there some that should definitely be OEM and so on)? As for the 110 TD I'm not even going there... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivan Posted August 18, 2005 Share Posted August 18, 2005 Geoff Best to get a head gasket kit. This should include all of the gaskets required. e.g. Head gaskets, valley gasket, exhaust gaskets etc. Also some silicone (only a little bit needed) to seal the plenum chamber, and don't forget the antifreeze. IMHO I would put it all back together and refill with water. Then after you are sure the problem is solved and there are no leaks drain it and refill with the correct coolant mixture (saves wasting coolant. Don't ask me how I know that one ). It's certainly doable in a day but it may be a long day. Ivan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bishbosh Posted August 18, 2005 Share Posted August 18, 2005 Geoff, Before you get stuck into removing the heads, take a close look at the valley gasket as you dismantle the engine as this may be the cause of your coolant loss. Much quicker and easier to replace than doing the heads. If you do do the heads get them checked and skimmed as necessary. I can't see how a ceramic seaelant would ruin a head unless it has totally blocked any water ways within the head, but then again I'm no expert! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niall_CSK Posted August 18, 2005 Share Posted August 18, 2005 Agree with Bish, there is usually some other underlying fault like cr@p in the system or the rad partially blocked. When you do the heads back up leave the outer most four bolts on each at about 30% of the recommended torque. The ones I am talking about are the four smaller ones nearest the manifold. Cut a long story short they don't really do anything except twist the head so the P38a V8 didn't have them at all. If you have the heads skimmed or use different thickness or type of gaskets to original be sure to check / adjust the rocker preload on the lifters. Not difficult but fiddly. Won't stop the engine running or do any damage if you don't but you just won't get the best out of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffbeaumont Posted August 18, 2005 Author Share Posted August 18, 2005 If you do do the heads get them checked and skimmed as necessary.I can't see how a ceramic seaelant would ruin a head unless it has totally blocked any water ways within the head, but then again I'm no expert! Where do you get heads checked/skimmed? I presume that would mean having the vehicles out of action for more than a day? What about the overheating? Could that damage the heads? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffbeaumont Posted August 18, 2005 Author Share Posted August 18, 2005 Before you get stuck into removing the heads, take a close look at the valley gasket as you dismantle the engine as this may be the cause of your coolant loss.Much quicker and easier to replace than doing the heads. Would the coolant be coming out the exhaust, though? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bishbosh Posted August 18, 2005 Share Posted August 18, 2005 Look in the yellow pages for an engineering firm that will do it. Shouldn't cost more than £20 a head and if you're lucky they'll turn it around in a day. The valley gasket can leak and let water into the intake system presenting itself as steam from the exhaust. (Ask me how I know ) If you do do the heads I would agree with the "long day" estimate above but would also add the words "extremely" and "frustrating" and "who in their right mind put a bolt there???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffbeaumont Posted August 18, 2005 Author Share Posted August 18, 2005 The valley gasket can leak and let water into the intake system presenting itself as steam from the exhaust. (Ask me how I know ) I take it I can't tell whether it's the valley gasket until I get it apart, and therefore had best lay in a full gasket kit before I start? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted August 18, 2005 Share Posted August 18, 2005 If/when you do it, use composite head & valley gaskets, much better than tin ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffbeaumont Posted August 24, 2005 Author Share Posted August 24, 2005 Well, it got me back home (via Wales, and towing a moderately heavy trailer on the first leg) - seems whichever gasket is on the way out has a lot to do with the rough running I had before I left. After the Bars Leaks went in it started running a lot smoother. On the run back down it was getting steadily rougher and seemed to be suffering from dropping torque. Seems I need to get the bits ordered and crack on with it this weekend... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffbeaumont Posted August 28, 2005 Author Share Posted August 28, 2005 Well, right hand back is now stripped down - the exhaust ports on the front two cylinders (2 & 4) are steam cleaned, but I can't see any sign of this within the cylinders themselves or in the intakes ports (guess that rules out the valley gasket). No obvious places where coolant has been leaking past the gasket, nor can I see any cracks in the block. What should I be looking for, or should I just clean it all up and reassemble it and hope for the best? The engine actually looks in good nick - cam looks reasonable, tappets are all fine. So hopefully if I can sort this I won't be having to open it up again for quite a while Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffbeaumont Posted August 28, 2005 Author Share Posted August 28, 2005 Changed my mind - after looking at the gasket photos on RPI's website, mine is fairly well gone. That's good - something fixable Cleaned up the head and it passed the ruler'n'torch test, so hopefully I'm okay there, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatboy Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 Geoff, I can't remember the mileage on your Rangie but would suggest you look closely at the cam. I did what you are doing, was convinced the cam was fine and 10,000 miles later, backfires and poor performance caused me to pull the cam only to find two of the lobes almost round.... When you con sider the effort it takes to get as far as you have got, a new cam is only another couple of hours graft and makes you feel a whole lot happier. Look closely at the top of the liners too and make sure none of them look out of place or as is they have been on the move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffbeaumont Posted August 28, 2005 Author Share Posted August 28, 2005 Mine's done 147k. If money wasn't so tight right now I'd put a new cam in as a matter of course (maybe new timing gear too?), but I'm desperately trying to pay off all the repair bills from the last few months. At the end of the day if it does go soon I've lost thirty quids worth of gaskets and a weekends work - spare time is at a bit of a premium, but not as much as money at the moment! If I do have to strip it down again and money's not quite such an issue I might well take Steve Lundlack's advice and have the heads skimmed back to raise the compression for LPG. I should have the MSnEDIS on soon, so I'll be able to run heavily retarded ignition when on petrol to cope with it. According to Steve 1mm off the heads will give 10.3:1 compression for much better torque and economy on LPG, at the expense of reducing petrol to essentially a 'limp home' mode. The other option he suggested was 0.6mm off the heads for 10.1:1 compression, which if I recall correctly was still usable with a common ignition map. Hmm, one of Steve's cams would be nice too, if the bank balance stretched to it - and the insurance company didn't get too nervous... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niall_CSK Posted August 29, 2005 Share Posted August 29, 2005 Try turning the engine over very slowly (I know that is not easy) with the heads off and see if you can see any movement of a liner. If you can get the engine turned gently enough you might be able to establish the timing chain condition by watching how far the engine has to turn before the camshaft does. Turn it one way to take up the slack then the other very slowly till the cam just starts to move. In my personal estimation of a new drive against one that was marginal, if the slack is any more than 5-6 degs of the crank then it is past it's best. It is not so easy to establish how good the camshaft is in situ. Use your fingers or finger nail over the edge of the cam lob around the peak to feel for mushrooming of the surface. Look closely at the contact surface, it should be very smooth & bright, if there is any sign of metallic grain structure at all then it has worn through the hardened surface. Do the cams come out freely, if you have a struggle pulling them up or they jam then the ends will have belled out meaning they have gone 'soft' and have had it. Put a straight edge across the follower contact surface, if you can see more than a trace of daylight they are on the way out. The contact surface can show wear signs but they should be very even and light, any sign of uneveness means they could be sticking in the bores and not rotating as they should. I presume you will be doing a service and hence changing the oil. Since you have time on your hands you might want to take the sump off for a look & a clean. Look in the bottom of the sump pan for traces of water or rust. Look at the bottom of the liner to block joint for signs of leakage or very dark red sludge that is sometimes exhibited when a liner frets in the block. That should use up some of that spare time you have Geoff, hope it's not too depressing reading Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffbeaumont Posted August 29, 2005 Author Share Posted August 29, 2005 That's right, just give me more to worry about. La, la, la, la, I can't hear you... I reckon I can just about get it all back together today so it can get me to work tomorrow - besides, I've no way of actually getting any more parts, now... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffbeaumont Posted August 29, 2005 Author Share Posted August 29, 2005 Bugger!!! Umm, what do I do about a sheared number one cylinder head bolt (centre of the inside row)...? Is it possible to tap it and get it out, or have I just written my block off? It's way to much to hope for that I could get away with leaving it out, isn't it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffbeaumont Posted August 29, 2005 Author Share Posted August 29, 2005 ...and just to add to the fun, some bright spark decided to attach the alternator bracket to the left hand head with a 5.5mm hex bolt Needless to say, my good hex key set goes up in 1mm increments. I've got a 5.5mm allen key, but that just twists. I'd leave the bracket where it is, but on this model year ('93) it covers the front middle row head bolt, so I can't. Given the force I was putting on the allen key I'm not even hugely confident it'll shift with a decent key - more likely strip it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatboy Posted August 29, 2005 Share Posted August 29, 2005 Geoff, If the bolt snapped during tightening up then I'd say there is a good chance of getting it out by trying to twist the top of it with a set of needle nose pliers. You will need to take the head off though to get as much of it exposed as possible. It won't have snapped because its jammed, just because you've yielded the material. Hopefully the threads are still fine and clean. Drilling and tapping a head bolt would be a nightmare as they are hard steel and the fact that they are surrounded by soft aluminium just makes it harder!! As for the alternator bracket, I'd recommend getting one of the allen sets that fits onto 1/2" drive as you can give it more grunt. The last resort would be to call in a welder... I sheared a bolt off in the water pump once and my mate welded a washer to the stump (which was flush! ) then welded a bolt to the washer. The combination of the heat and torque - out it came!! Mind you, he was a god with a welding torch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffbeaumont Posted August 29, 2005 Author Share Posted August 29, 2005 The slight catch in this case being that it's sheared at the top of the thread, so it's well down inside the block. I might just have to reassemble everything else and see how it goes. Not good My good hex keys are the type that fit a half inch socket adaptor - I'll have to get a 5.5mm one tomorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niall_CSK Posted August 30, 2005 Share Posted August 30, 2005 If you have problems with the broken head bolt you can always get the thread helicoiled though that means either finding someone who has a kit or taking the block out. You might find that hex head is actually imperial 1/4" A/F, nearly all the threads & bolts on the V8 are imperial, not sure waht happened on the P38. Remember this when taking that sheared bolt out and trying to repair or helicoil. Were aaah Doomed man Sorry Geoff, it seems at the moment if it wasn't for bad luck you would have no luck at all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffbeaumont Posted August 30, 2005 Author Share Posted August 30, 2005 Nah, life's good at the moment. If it wasn't for that wretched car... If you have problems with the broken head bolt you can always get the thread helicoiled though that means either finding someone who has a kit or taking the block out. ...which would mean finding someone with an engine hoist Guess I'll just put it back together and see how it goes. I suppose I might get away with it in the short term, but I'm sure it'll mean early failure of the head gasket. You might find that hex head is actually imperial 1/4" A/F, nearly all the threads & bolts on the V8 are imperial, not sure waht happened on the P38. Remember this when taking that sheared bolt out and trying to repair or helicoil. Even though this bracket is a late model year modification? I'll buy one of each and see if one fits better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffbeaumont Posted August 31, 2005 Author Share Posted August 31, 2005 Helicoil kit on the way (should be able to pick it up from The Toolbox this afternoon). Never used one before, so no idea what I've let myself in for. Hopefully a couple of new head bolts arriving from MM4x4 as well. The hex bolt was 7/32" (which is fractionally over 5.5mm). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niall_CSK Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 That size sounds familiar. A tip for drilling out the broken stud is to put the head back on and use the hole as a guide to keep your drill straight. You can wrap something around the drill to pack it and help prevent damaging the head, like a bit of plastic pipe split lengthways. Try it on something scrap lying around first, the refills are not so expensive, it's the tools in the kit that cost. It is very satisfying when you get it right Good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffbeaumont Posted August 31, 2005 Author Share Posted August 31, 2005 The head is still on there at the moment - not in a tearing hurry to remove it again if I don't have to. Hadn't thought of wrapping something round the drill bit - I'll see what I can find. Bit of gaffer tape would be better than nothing, I guess. Unfortunately, I don't think I have anything suitable to practice on, so I'll just have to risk diving straight in... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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