teessidelad25 Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 Hi guys I've got a Range Rover P38 Spec Ed Westminster 2001. Have mega problems with overheating. it all started about 8 months ago went it started overheating but couldnt see any water leaks so suspected Thermostat, changed and refilled system and ran fine for bout 4 weeks. then started overheating again and losing water and checked system and found water pump was leaking from mech seal on shaft and also gasket. changed water pump and refilled again, again all works for about 5 months. Went to work in the RR and red light came on and called AA guy came out and told him history then he checked for combustion gases in the coolant and all was clear nothing. took car home drained the coolant system best i could and refilled again took about 10.5 litres of coolant mix i know book says 11.3 litres but guessed it wasnt totally empty. anyways the car ran fine for about another 6 weeks. Now its started again but im losing mega amounts of coolant last night it started only did about 7 miles and red light came on so pulled over and luckily i always carry a big bottle of water (2Litre) in the car so took cap off let it depressurise (seemed to be quite pressurised) then filled it up with the 2 litres of water. did about 2 miles if that and again red light, so pulled over and called the AA, filled up the tank with another 7 litres off water and pulled onto back of recovery truck and took us home took car of truck and parked up checked tank and tank was empty ?? wheres water gone none on truck so not leaked ??? mega mystery no water in car ive put 9 litres of water in the system and only did 2 miles and still overheating whats happening mystery ??? help appreciated. i know its a long post but want you to know full story taking it to a local independent ex LR tech next week for Pressure testing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bille Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 Have you checked the oil in the sump to see if it's cloudy which would indicate water in the sump and will be either the head gasket, cracked head or liner problem. Next check front carpet to see if there is any water in the footwells which indicates heater core leaking. Assuming the above checks out fine start the engine and see if there is any undue condensate on the ground under the exhaust pipe when engine is revved, if you can get someone to rev the engine while you hold your hand about 150 - 200mm away from the tail pipe and there is a lot of water sprayed onto your hand it is a head gasket or cracked head or something equally serious. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paintman Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 Unexplained loss of coolant in the V8 is usually head gasket failure or the oft quoted slipped liner issue. Unfortunately the symptoms are much the same for both. Have the coolant checked again for exhaust gases. Have the coolant system pressure tested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheltie50 Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 This is very simillar to one up here, occasional overheating over a long period some water lose then total failure of the cylinder head gasket, eventually the engine would not even start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teessidelad25 Posted December 23, 2009 Author Share Posted December 23, 2009 well guys Had it to a LR specialist mainly does P38's and done pressure tests and its the head gaskets, also water coming out the exhaust. apparently pressurising pretty much straight away. Quoted me 600 to do the heads oil change and guarante. does this sound reasonable? also said he would do timing chain, crank shaft oil seal and sterring damper for an extra 300. carl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveRK Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 Call me a skeptic but i thought the AA checked the coolant for contamination - and bearing in mind this fault has been ongoing for some time i would be looking at a blockage in the cooling system causing air-locks and / or restricted circulation - its all too easy on these engines to go straight for the old head gasket problem diagnosis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teessidelad25 Posted December 23, 2009 Author Share Posted December 23, 2009 Call me a skeptic but i thought the AA checked the coolant for contamination - and bearing in mind this fault has been ongoing for some time i would be looking at a blockage in the cooling system causing air-locks and / or restricted circulation - its all too easy on these engines to go straight for the old head gasket problem diagnosis. Yes the AA did check for gases but that was about 2 months ago and garage said they checked for gases and found them. Also water/coolant in exhaust system ?? I was thinking along same line as urself some sort of blockage but how would i find it it doesnt even run for 5 mins now without overheating its never been this bad used to get atleast 20 mins before overheating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull Bar Cowboy Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 Seems ok ish to me …………. The book time for both head gaskets is 7.55 hours and I guess about £75 parts …………… book time for the timing chain is 2.5 hours, but should be a little less with the heads off ………….again a max of £50 parts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teessidelad25 Posted December 24, 2009 Author Share Posted December 24, 2009 Seems ok ish to me …………. The book time for both head gaskets is 7.55 hours and I guess about £75 parts …………… book time for the timing chain is 2.5 hours, but should be a little less with the heads off ………….again a max of £50 parts. Well its booked in for 29th Dec but taking longer due to there machine shop not being open til 5th Jan, also includes pressure testing and guarantee dont think many garages give that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveRK Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 I hear what you say - lets hope it fixes the problem. For reference on my engine I have removed the viscous fan and have fitted a thermostat housing with a temperature switch as used on models with air-con conected to 2 x electric pusher fans at the front of the radiator. The rad is new and it takes 5 minutes for the engine to get up to hot and switch on the fans - they run for a couple of minutes and cycle on and off. If i didnt have the fans it likely would over heat after 5-10 minutes. If your radiator is blocked then your engine would overheat in the same way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vougese39 Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 well guys Had it to a LR specialist mainly does P38's and done pressure tests and its the head gaskets, also water coming out the exhaust. apparently pressurising pretty much straight away. Quoted me 600 to do the heads oil change and guarante. does this sound reasonable? also said he would do timing chain, crank shaft oil seal and sterring damper for an extra 300. carl why do the timing chain and not the cam and followers while there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teessidelad25 Posted January 3, 2010 Author Share Posted January 3, 2010 why do the timing chain and not the cam and followers while there? Would you be willing to quote for the Job ?? Is there any reason to do the cam and followers ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatboy Posted January 3, 2010 Share Posted January 3, 2010 If the front cover is off to do the timing chain, it only takes another couple of bolts to remove the cam. (Mind you, a little bit of time / risk to remove the radiator, oil coolers and air con)... The point is, the majority of time / effort is required to get the inlet & exhaust manifolds off, once you have done that much, its wise to just go "that little bit further" to replace other components which will be worn and need replacing in the next while or so anyway... On the other hand, if you've had a quote of that type where someone would consider doing that work without the cam and lifters, it would make me wonder if they knew what they were doing or were deliberately misleading you so that you'll be back in a year or so to have another diagnosis done for "poor power / misfire / lumpy idle".... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vougese39 Posted January 3, 2010 Share Posted January 3, 2010 Would you be willing to quote for the Job ?? Is there any reason to do the cam and followers ?? please email me at armsonae@yahoo.co.uk with your details and i will contact you cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teessidelad25 Posted January 7, 2010 Author Share Posted January 7, 2010 please email me at armsonae@yahoo.co.uk with your details and i will contact you cheers Gents some more information from the Garage. Heads stripped and have found its not the gasket but a leak between the liner and block in cylinder no.2 He is proposing that he uses a ceramic sealer from america to seal the leak and also replace the worn cam shaft and followers and timing chain. Anyone heard of this Ceramic sealer stuff. i guess my other option is to look at a new block of complete engine ??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatboy Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 There are a number of ceramic "sealers" but they are not 100% reliable or a guaranteed fix. You also need to add them to the coolant on a complete engine so he must be proposing to rebuild with new parts, run the engine till its warm then go through the sealant procedure. Its the kind of trick you try when the problem first appears because if it works - great. If not, you have only spent £50 on a bottle of sealant and a gallon of new anti freeze... So, it may cost you +-/£1,000 to end up with .... a knackered engine with some new parts. You'd be back at square one with a much lighter pocket. If you can do without the vehicle for a while longer and still want to keep it, I'd suggest looking at either getting your block machined and top hat liners fitted, or find a known good short engine (new or 2nd hand) and fit the new top end to that instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull Bar Cowboy Posted January 8, 2010 Share Posted January 8, 2010 Donald (Fatboy) is 100% correct ..............I suspect your dealers will try to use "K seal". This works sometimes but is definately not a 100% cure and it may not work at all, or it may last a week, or it may last a year .......... but it is not a 100% fix. Also there is a possibility that another cyliner will go the same way in the fullness of time. The only complete cure is to get the engine rebuilt with Top hat liners ........ TBH they should not be charging for taking the heads off ............. diagnostics should have told them the head gaskets were OK ......... a simple compression test will have shown that the compression figures were OK ............ a further examination of the plugs will have shown the offending cylinder.......... a faulty head gasket will always show bad compression figures on one or more cylinders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teessidelad25 Posted January 8, 2010 Author Share Posted January 8, 2010 Donald (Fatboy) is 100% correct ..............I suspect your dealers will try to use "K seal". This works sometimes but is definately not a 100% cure and it may not work at all, or it may last a week, or it may last a year .......... but it is not a 100% fix. Also there is a possibility that another cyliner will go the same way in the fullness of time. The only complete cure is to get the engine rebuilt with Top hat liners ........ TBH they should not be charging for taking the heads off ............. diagnostics should have told them the head gaskets were OK ......... a simple compression test will have shown that the compression figures were OK ............ a further examination of the plugs will have shown the offending cylinder.......... a faulty head gasket will always show bad compression figures on one or more cylinders. Gents He did do a compression test and apparently the system was pressurising instantly. Plugs were ok as well no water in oil. I am concerned over the fact of sopending 1500 if its not a long term fix as i do want to keep the car. Can someone please give advice as to where to go for a new engine?? whats the difference between short and long ??? i'm very gratefull for all this help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull Bar Cowboy Posted January 8, 2010 Share Posted January 8, 2010 He did do a compression test and apparently the system was pressurising instantly. That statement worries me ........... sounds like they started the engine and found the coolant system to be immediately pressurising and assumed that the head gasket was the issue. They should have done a compression test on each cylinder to confirm that suspicion and to determine exactly which cylinder(s) and which bank were affected. The fact that there is no coolant in the oil also confirms the liner problem as the coolant is burnt off as steam........ when a head gasket blows, then often coolant will dribble into the oil when the engine is at rest as the pressure in the coolant system is released. If they are saying there is a liner issue then I would expect that cylinder to have a steam cleaned look about it ....... this would have also been evident on the plug. So, are you saying its £1500 just to change the head gaskets and fill the coolant system with a ceramic sealer ? The difference between a long and short engine …………. a short engine is just the block, crank, conrods, & pistons ………. a long engine also includes the cam & heads …………. A fully dressed engine also includes all the ancillaries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teessidelad25 Posted January 8, 2010 Author Share Posted January 8, 2010 That statement worries me ........... sounds like they started the engine and found the coolant system to be immediately pressurising and assumed that the head gasket was the issue. They should have done a compression test on each cylinder to confirm that suspicion and to determine exactly which cylinder(s) and which bank were affected. The fact that there is no coolant in the oil also confirms the liner problem as the coolant is burnt off as steam........ when a head gasket blows, then often coolant will dribble into the oil when the engine is at rest as the pressure in the coolant system is released. If they are saying there is a liner issue then I would expect that cylinder to have a steam cleaned look about it ....... this would have also been evident on the plug. So, are you saying its £1500 just to change the head gaskets and fill the coolant system with a ceramic sealer ? The difference between a long and short engine …………. a short engine is just the block, crank, conrods, & pistons ………. a long engine also includes the cam & heads …………. A fully dressed engine also includes all the ancillaries. Right I've finally bit the bullet and bought a new short engine. 3200 for everything engine,cams,timing chain,new steering damper and flex disc between engine and gearbox and fitted. Carl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teessidelad25 Posted February 26, 2010 Author Share Posted February 26, 2010 Right I've finally bit the bullet and bought a new short engine. 3200 for everything engine,cams,timing chain,new steering damper and flex disc between engine and gearbox and fitted. Carl New engine fitted at a cost of 3.5K yes i know expensive but he had me by the short an curly's. Anyway did 500 miles then the bloody RED light came on again ARGH!!!!!!! Managed to get it recovered to the garage where engine fitted and he told me its the Heater Matrix that's gone and that caused the system to overheat. Even thou it only lost about a pint of water. But now he telling me because the engine has over heated and i mean the red light was on for about 10 seconds that the engine warranty is now void. Anyone any ideas on what i can do ?? CARL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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