Winch connections to Main or Leasure?

[tweetyduck]

What the norm? Winch to Starter or Leasure battery. I've googled and can find nothing. they all just say "Battery". Which one dammit !

[Adam001]

Starter battery with a disable switch for the split charge unless you have a very hefty split charge system

If you connect to the leisure battery you have to plan it for worst case senario which is 400amps being pulled through the split charge relay

[tweetyduck]

ah. got it. Now why didn't i think of that. My relay can handle 250amps cont. but thats still not enough i feel.

[western]

hasn't affected my 70amp split charge relay, but then my winch has it's own dedicated battery as well.

[FridgeFreezer]

ah. got it. Now why didn't i think of that. My relay can handle 250amps cont. but thats still not enough i feel.

Assuming it's an X-charge or similar, Simon's measurements showed that even under heavy winching you will struggle to draw that much. Your alternator only puts out 80A at full chat anyway, and if it's struggling the battery light will be on which will drop the split-charge out.

I thought the whole idea of a twin-battery setup, especially on an expedition vehicle, was that the winch etc. draws from one battery and the car runs from the other, so that even if you winch the battery to death you still have power to start & run.

What sort of "leisure" battery have you got - if it came from a caravan shop it may not take happily to winching duties.

[western]

best to have a good quality deep cycle battery for winch use.

[Adam001]

You can do whatever you want, but the fact remains, when you work on a electrical system you plan for worst case senario.

Your leisure battery is more than capable of handling the current (half current when split)...but what if it fails? All the current goes through the split charge to draw from the starter battery, not an unlikely situation either.

No problem using the leisure battery, but you really have to use a proper contactor to do it safely, not these small relays.

Fridge, if while winching your alternator light is coming on, then you have a electrical problem or your belt is slipping, that should not happen. While winching though and referring to split charges what the alternator is spitting out is irrelevant anyway, all it does it relieve strain on the batteries, not the wiring.

[tweetyduck]

sorry i've been out for a while so slow to respond.

I have a Exide Maxxima 900DC on the leasure and a Normal Exide Maxxima 900 on the Main. The Split charge relay is a T-Max (the new one) with the digital contoller and its rated to 250A cont. My Altenator is 100Amp and although my split charge system currently has Mega Fuses in they can be swapped out to 250Amps if needed. The Maga's are rated to continuous so a 125A will not blow at 125A according to the web. They are very slow blow and designed that way. @200% current they take about a second and at 135% they last 2 mins.

So i could fit the Winch to either the leasure or the main. Looks like the indication is that the Leasure is the way to go? So whichever you think, should i just connect directly to the battery terminals and use a good breaker on the pos feed and go straight back to the winch ? Possibly fusing the Winch with 250 or 300A maga fuses?

[PaulMc]

With the IBS-DBS -

IBS recommend that you connect a winch to the vehicle's starter battery, their reasons (from their FAQ Page) are given below -

From their FAQ Page -

Q: In winch applications the IBS relay is going to be destroyed

A:

The IBS Dual Battery System set up requires the installation of the electric winch on the starter battery (even if your best mate tells you different). The system follows the load sharing rules between the running alternator, the starter battery and the manually linked in auxiliary battery and the electric winch in operation, the relay is designed to handle this application without restrictions. In any case an electrical winch is the heaviest possible load and the car manufacturer never has designed the car electrics for this kind of load. If using the winch therefore it is always recommended to have the engine running and link the auxiliary battery in (two manual link modes are available: 30mins and 180mins, both with automatic reset). If not being in a competition or urgent situation stop the winch action from time to time to let the system recover or use a snatch block with a double line pull to half the stress on all components.

Their products are aimed at overlanders, rather than competion winching.

.

[tweetyduck]

Thanks.

I think I'd agree with that and the IBS is almost identical to the T-Max except the relay is bigger and 250A. My thinking is that if i flatten the starter i can always link the Aux battery to start the car which is what IBS is saying. They also say you can link the two batteries to winch which i would say you shouldn't need to do unless you were really stuck and even then you could take your time and keep the engine running.

any more,,, for any more?

[western]

if you get really stuck, then double or triple line the winch with pulley blocks, don't expect any winch to extract you on a single line, plus using a pulley block, drops the winch speed & current draw, so helping the battery to last longer.

[tweetyduck]

yep got myself a sythetic rope and a winch kit with a pully for free as part of the purchase.

Now all i need is to fit it and get someone to show me how to use it !

[Adam001]

Your split charge is actually very different to the IBS as yours uses a contactor solenoid as apposed to a relay, much more robust system. You will find unless you are hip deep in mud on the first spool of the drum you will be fine leaving the split charge on for 90% of winching jobs as it is more than up to the challenge.

I didn't realise the kits on Mm4x4 were so reasonably priced, much better deal

[tweetyduck]

I actually got it from JGS 4x4 as he has the newest T-MAX stuff in very early. So early he has it before T-MAX themselves.

The ones on MM are the older simpler model the new ones are £82.99. Here, Ebay Item number:280547133824

You can see the controller looks almost identical to the IBS, so much so the diagram in their manual is identical. They've only been out for a few months i think. Quality wise i have no idea but its cheaper than a national luna or IBS.

So I'm still in two minds. I think i might go for the starter battery path as it will be easier to wire. The cables will be shorter if i take it to the starter. However that terminal is stacked so i might not get it on. Then its just as easy to take it to the leisure battery as it is to take it to the main. However If i take it to the main battery compartment i can move it if i change my mind.

Still open to suggestions. Its sat on the front of the 110 waiting for me to make my mind up.

[Adam001]

Ah I see, the contactor appears to remain the same, the rest to be honest is just nice to have but not really important. I may uprate my kit one day

As for which battery, what is the winch for? peace of mind for greenlaning like mine? If so put it on the starter battery for simplicity.

[tweetyduck]

Its to get me out the hole i'm likely to get stuck in. We're off round the world for 2 years.

[LandyManLuke]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, traditional deep cycle batteries aren't actually that good for winching!!

'Deep cycle' means continuous steady, but relatively lower, draw over extended periods of time - like having the caravan fired up overnight, or running lights on a boat for days without running the engine - this is true 'deep cycle' or 'leisure' use.

Winches, are to batteries, pretty much like starter motors, heavy current draw for relatively shorter periods of time.

That said, AGM batteries are available in either type of battery, and there are also 'combined' style batteries, which add to the confusion.

For overlanding, you do want the deep cycle ability - for lighting, fridges etc, when the engine is off - thats what they're designed for.

I'd put the winch on the engine battery - it's hardly like you're entering winch challenge events.

[Bush65]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, traditional deep cycle batteries aren't actually that good for winching!!

'Deep cycle' means continuous steady, but relatively lower, draw over extended periods of time - like having the caravan fired up overnight, or running lights on a boat for days without running the engine - this is true 'deep cycle' or 'leisure' use.

Winches, are to batteries, pretty much like starter motors, heavy current draw for relatively shorter periods of time.

That said, AGM batteries are available in either type of battery, and there are also 'combined' style batteries, which add to the confusion.

For overlanding, you do want the deep cycle ability - for lighting, fridges etc, when the engine is off - thats what they're designed for.

I'd put the winch on the engine battery - it's hardly like you're entering winch challenge events.

I agree with most of that.

I don't know about the Exide batteries that Neill has, but I never wound trust a deep cycle battery in an expedition vehicle as they are too fragile.

The road corrugation here in Aus have killed more than a few normal starting batteries and they stand up far, far better than deep cycle types. Either battery need to be able to do starting duty if necessary and many deep cycle batteries are not up to constant starting use.

Good AGM batteries are expensive but are far ahead of the other types in all areas - they are good for starting, can easily replace deep cycle batteries and give much better service and can be re-charged far quicker because of their very low internal resistance, they are maintenance free, wont spill acid, and are the most robust. I have replaced all of my batteries (including the boat, which has an electric trolling drive) to the Chinese made Deep River AGM's - they are great batteries and well worth the $$$.

[tweetyduck]

Luke and Bush

The Exide Maxxima batteries are both suitable for overland use, they won't spill, can be used on their side, and are extremely vibration resistant. The Deep Cycle version is suitable for starting a vehicle and for constant use as such. In fact its more suitable for all applications but doesn't have a very good starting capacity at -30C like the normal one does which is why i opted for one of each rather that two of the DC ones. We will be going to cold places as well. So lukes logic behind the reason for using the starter as the winch battery is a little flawed. The DC one will cope with the drain just as well as the normal battery as long as its not -18C or lower. BTW they are both AGM.

Page 23 in this PDF gives some background to this.

The question is not if the battery is up to the job (either should be, with one better at lower temps) but if my design is the most robust for my needs. Either battery could do the job i feel.

I do think the starter battery is the way to go and rely on the Leisure as the "backup". This is somewhat flawed in itself as the aim is to never discharge the starter so i might yet change my mind. Thanks for all the comments so far as this is starting to make me think about what i want from the winch and what i want out of each battery. (to never be needed and never be flat )

[LandyManLuke]

So lukes logic behind the reason for using the starter as the winch battery is a little flawed.

No it's not. As stated, it's based on the 'traditional' types of batteries - 'starter' OR 'deep cycle'. I stated in the post up there ^ that there are combined and AGM batteries that muddy the water.

Page 25 shows that the Deep Cycle battery is better at withstanding deep discharge, at the expense of CCA. The same trade off is still present, its just of a different order, due to the AGM/spiral wound technology used.