New Chassis - Q plate?

[nickr]

Hi

Just wonder if anyone has been in a similar position and can comment :-

Finally got close enough to completing my ninety rebuild to start completing the registration paper work.

Backround is that the vehicle is essentially standard components - engine, gearbox, transfer box, axles, but has been built on a new Richards chassis.

Essentially well within the dlva points scheme and no issue from that perspective.

My local DVLA office have issued me with a chassis number to have stamped on the Chassis, but have warned that DVLA Swansea might not allow me to keep my original registration mark simply because of the fact that the chassis is not a genuine Land Rover part.

People have commented that as I have destroyed my old chassis I should have simply transfered my original chassis number to the new chassis and said nothing more, but I've been concious to do things properly and by the book so would be disappointed if my honesty get the better of me.

Bottom line - anyone else got a Richards chassis and follwed the same process as me? What was the result?

Many thanks

Nick

[nickwilliams]

Why did you feel the need to get a new chassis number? Isn't the whole reason for the points system to provide an objective basis on which to determine whether or not a new chassis number is required?

The chassis number is not a serial number for the metal work of the chassis, it's a unique identifier for the complete vehicle. Replacing the chassis with a like-for-like part does not alter the vehicle identity.

You don't say what age the vehicle is, but my understanding (from what I have read, not as a result of any direct contact with them) is that unless you are trying to claim tax exempt status DVLA don't actually care too much.

Nick.

[Aragorn]

Watching this with interest.

Anyone on here actually been thru the process and properly registered a rebuilt motor with the DVLA?

[Disco-Ron]

There must be plenty of people that have.................... i'm watching with interest too, today i ordered my new chassis........ and i'm currently looking at the options of a private plate for it.............!!

[cackshifter]

I'd talk to Alistair or Duncan at Richards; they know the process well, and I believe also have built and registered a 90 from bits, as opposed to re-chassising a donor vehicle. If you have done the latter, it sounds similar to what I had done to repair a crashed 110, and as far as VOSA was concerned (I had to have a VIC check) was pretty straightforward (excep they had some system problems) . I presume by chassis no. you mean VIN. No need for stamping the VIN on the new chassis (although it's not a bad idea if done before galving), and it's just a repair, replacing one part with another, as far as they are concerned. The VIN stayed the same. When you say destroyed, do you by any chance still have the bit with the no. on, and the chassis receipt? Then you can substantiate what you say has been done. I do think just replacing the chassis & saying nothing more is all that you're exepcted to do. It is important it is a new chassis. If it isn't that's a different can of worms.

Regards

Nigel

[Disco-Ron]

I asked richards today if they were able to stamp my existing number into the chassis before it went for galv, they said they cannot legally do it...........................

[Aragorn]

I've already ditched my first galv chassis and baught a brand new one from Marslands to avoid this who Q plate issue, and now it seems its not so sure after all.

But then what else did can we expect from the DVLA.

[Disco-Ron]

I donn't 'think' its that difficult, its just that they want to check that the vehicle that has the new(must be BRAND new) chassis is the same vehicle that was in use with an old one, and not one thats simply been put together from bits accumulated from any old place...........

read the bit under 'other changes'.....

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/OwningAVehicle/ChangesToYourRegistrationCertificate/DG_4022054

[Range Rover Blues]

If the chassis is from the OEM manufacturer then it's classed as a replacement part, other than that it isn't with the possible exception of BMH bodyshells which are where BL tooling ended up.

I've heard so many different outcomes from similar issues I wouldn't like to guess, I even heard of an insurance company reshelling a classic ford using a new Zealand shell (used).

[WarPig]

Ive recently had a Richards chassis fited, and heres my undersyanding of how it works...

The point system allows you to change certain key components such as axels, chassis, gearbox etc, as long as enough of the original components remain, to maintain the vehicles identity.

I brand new galv chassis simply adopts the identity of your original chassis (which must be destroyed).

If the original chassis is reused on another vehicle, then this 'other vehicle' may require a 'Q' registration.

My galv chassis doesnt have a chassis number, but im thinking of stamping a piece of galv/stainless steel with the original chassis number, and then bonding it to the galv chassis.

[Range Rover Blues]

You don't have to have the VIN on the chassis, before about 1980 it doesn't need one at all on the car.

[Retroanaconda]

We need to distinguish between a rebuilt vehicle and a radically altered/modified vehicle.

A rebuilt vehicle is when you are restoring a vehicle and using a mixture of old and new parts. This is when the identity can be called into question.

However, the definition radically altered vehicle covers:

...vehicles which are substantially altered from their original specification, but which are not kit conversions

Which can also bring the identity into question, has it been modified so much that it's not really the same vehicle any more?

So for our purposes, if you 'rebuild' your 90 (like I did my Series III), you will fall into the first category. My Series III still looks like a Series III, I haven't altered the vehicle from it's original specification, it still has leaf sprung suspension, drum brakes and beam axles etc., I merely replaced and/or reconditioned some components (one of them the chassis). Once you know you are in this category you need to check against the following specification:

In order to retain the original registration mark:

• cars and car-derived vans must use:

The original unmodified chassis or unaltered bodyshell (i.e. body and chassis as one unit - monocoque); or a new chassis or monocoque bodyshell of the same specification as the original supported by evidence from the dealer or manufacturer (e.g. receipt).

And two other major components from the original vehicle - ie suspension (front & back); steering assembly; axles (both); transmission or engine.

So in the case of my Series III, I used a new chassis (and I have my supporting evidence, the reciept plus all my build photos), and I used the steering, axles, transmission and engine from the original vehicle. More than enough to qualify me to keep my old registration. Notice the bodywork counts for nothing (on a body-on-frame vehicle like that), so my bulkhead swap doesn't matter at all.

If, however, you are building let's say a super-awesome-portal-axled-challenge truck 'thing', you will fall into the radically altered category. In this case a points-based system is used:

The following values will be allocated to the major components used:

• chassis or body shell (body and chassis as one unit - monocoque ie direct replacement from the manufacturer) (original or new) = 5 points
• suspension = 2 points
• axles = 2 points
• transmission = 2 points
• steering assembly = 2 points
• engine = 1 point

You need to score eight points to retain the ID. Note also that the chassis cannot be modified, if it is then you lose it's points.

So, assuming say you cut the back of the chassis off and fit a tray-back/winch tray, and alter the suspension/steering/braking systems to accommodate portal axles off another vehicle, you have (in my view at least, and this is the crucial point) modified the basic structure of the vehicle. It is no longer a Defender 90 in the way it was designed. You have radically altered the structure/construction of the vehicle. I believe this is different from let's say fitting a new rear cross-member (not a mod, simply a repair), but at the end of the day it is down to the IVA inspector and his opinion.

In the above case, you won't be able to retain the original reg because too many components have been replaced or modified. I believe a lot of heavily-modified challenge trucks that run around would end up the same if tested, although it doesn't really bother me as these vehicles aren't often used on the road.

So for you, it's quite simple. If you use a new chassis (Richards, Marslands etc.) and destroy the old one, then you can keep the old reg, as long as you re-use enough components as above. I took photos of the old one being cut up, and have the receipt for the new one, so if VOSA want to check it then they can do so.

Oh, and Richards offered to stamp my chassis number in for me, so it's probably the usual case of everyone gives you a different answer.

Hope that is of some help.

[Aragorn]

Question is though, do we just assume we've met the criteria, keep the documentation safe, and leave the DVLA out of the loop, or do we make the call and tell them its been rebuilt, taking the chance that the person who just happens to answer our phonecall is a muppet and completely f--ks everything up?

I've got a new chassis, and will be retaining the suspension, steering, axle and transmission from the original truck, so i should be entitled to keep the reg.

Then you've got the question what counts as "original". Take the steering system, lets say i fit a new steering box and some sumo bars with new balljoints, is that no longer then "original"? Those items might have been replaced anyway as they wore out, and are in effect consumables. Then you've got "suspension", again i'm fitting new shocks and new bushes, but the arms etc are all from the original motor.

They cant expect me to rebuild a vehicle and refit all the knackered old parts...

[Retroanaconda]

Original spec. So assuming you keep the steering system the same make-up, and don't go putting hydro-steer etc. on, then it counts as the original system. Same goes for suspension, obviously we replace bushes/springs over time, what matters is that the make-up hasn't changed. Converting from leaves to coils for example, would void the points.

As for telling the DVLA, technically we should yes. They need to be informed, then they may wish to perform a VIC check, and if it's all above board and you can prove it with relevant evidence, then there will be no issue. There may be a V5 note added to say it's been rebuilt using old/new parts etc, I'm sure I've seen that before.

That said, I haven't got around to telling them about mine yet

[cypermethrin]

We have been pinged by the DVLA on this today.

Our 90 was re-chassised (brand new) by the dealer we purchased if from - and to my knowledge has no VIN number stamped on the new chassis - although it does have the original VIN on the brake box and indeed the windscreen plate. It retains the same suspension type (although new components) - same axles - same transmission - same sterring assembly and engine. So should score > 8 points given James' kind post above when inspected - hopefully.

But the "old" chassis was subsequently used by the dealer to replace the orginal rusted chassis on another older 90 "g" plate

Both us and the owners of the "old" chassised 90 have been asked to local DVLA for inspection.

Am I right in thinking that if the above holds true - we should be able to avoid the Q plate and retain our orginal plate and VIN.

And the risk is to the other G plate truck which may end up on a Q plate ?

DVLA Swansea were not very forthcoming with potential outcomes.

Thanks

[cackshifter]

I would have thought you are the innocent party here and, assuming that was all that was swapped and according to the rules, would be allowed to keep your old VIN (though who knows what they might say). The dealer should not have used the chassis on another vehicle (ignoring that if it was bad enough to swap from yours it's surely not good enough to re-use). I think the dealer will have some explaining to do. It would be good to hear what the outcome is.

Nigel

[cypermethrin]

Just spoken to the dealer and he is going to come down to the local DVLA for the inspection - he has two potentially p*ssed off customers to deal with.

[Disty]

Concerning the points system- do you get the 5 points if you swap a richards/marslands chassis and keep the body, or do you only get points for parts kept from the old chassis and change other things?

I have heavy duty track rods (steering), 2 inch lift (suspension) and new Richards chassis (chassis). Body, engine, tbox, gbox etc all same. Which category would this put me into?

[Retroanaconda]

We have been pinged by the DVLA on this today.

Our 90 was re-chassised (brand new) by the dealer we purchased if from - and to my knowledge has no VIN number stamped on the new chassis - although it does have the original VIN on the brake box and indeed the windscreen plate. It retains the same suspension type (although new components) - same axles - same transmission - same sterring assembly and engine. So should score > 8 points given James' kind post above when inspected - hopefully.

But the "old" chassis was subsequently used by the dealer to replace the orginal rusted chassis on another older 90 "g" plate

Both us and the owners of the "old" chassised 90 have been asked to local DVLA for inspection.

Am I right in thinking that if the above holds true - we should be able to avoid the Q plate and retain our orginal plate and VIN.

And the risk is to the other G plate truck which may end up on a Q plate ?

DVLA Swansea were not very forthcoming with potential outcomes.

Thanks

In that situation I'd be really quite annoyed at the dealer. They should not have re-used your chassis at all, make sure the DVLA are aware of their actions. Hopefully the second vehicle will end up with a Q-plate and you'll keep your reg.

Concerning the points system- do you get the 5 points if you swap a richards/marslands chassis and keep the body, or do you only get points for parts kept from the old chassis and change other things?

I have heavy duty track rods (steering), 2 inch lift (suspension) and new Richards chassis (chassis). Body, engine, tbox, gbox etc all same. Which category would this put me into?

I don't think you've lost any points at all there. It would take a very anal VIC inspector to deny you the steering and suspension (they are still the same basic system after all). Your chassis you should retain your points for, as it's a brand new replacement. Just make sure you scrap the old one and can prove it if need be.

[mike4444244]

I have rechassied mine, Richards stamped my number on before galving, I wrote a covering letter to my local office incl receipt and pic of chopped up old chassis, I had to take it to the local office where I filled in a form and it had a 15 min inspection (very thorough though, every number checked) new logbook identical to the old one arrived 2 weeks later, no hassle and all nice and legal

[cypermethrin]

In that situation I'd be really quite annoyed at the dealer. They should not have re-used your chassis at all, make sure the DVLA are aware of their actions. Hopefully the second vehicle will end up with a Q-plate and you'll keep your plate

believe me I am very annoyed with the dealer. The dvla are well aware of the fact that our old chassis has ended up on another vehicle..... Thanks for all your inputs as the story unravels I'll be reporting back

[Disco-Ron]

I have rechassied mine, Richards stamped my number on before galving, I wrote a covering letter to my local office incl receipt and pic of chopped up old chassis, I had to take it to the local office where I filled in a form and it had a 15 min inspection (very thorough though, every number checked) new logbook identical to the old one arrived 2 weeks later, no hassle and all nice and legal

I asked Richards only last week if they could stamp my number into the new chassis i ordered, and they said it can't be done, as its illegal... so how come they did yours..???

[Diablo]

I've noticed a few unwelcome holes in my chassis recently, and thinking of this too, and it would be nice if there was a clear answer.

Though with the points system, I'm not sure where I'd stand

Engine is now a 200tdi, suspension is the same, chassis wouldn't be, axles are, steering has been converted to power steering [i presume it wouldn't have been originally in 1985] so I guess I'd lose those points.

And then the gearbox has been replaced, but with a stronger type for the 200tdi engine, so not sure where I'd stand with that. Same type of gearbox though.

[Retroanaconda]

This is where the confusion comes in, it's really down to the IVA inspector's interpretation really.

How I see your situation:

• Chassis - Retain points, as new replacement
• Engine - Lose points
• Suspension - Retain points
• Steering - Lose points
• Transmission - Lose points

However that is a literally take on the rules, there is also the argument that replacing the engine for another Land Rover engine that was fitted to later issues of the same model, wouldn't be qualified as a change in that respect. Especially if it's one 2.5L diesel engine for another like in a lot of cases. Same could be said for the steering and transmission, both setups used by Land Rover on later versions of the same vehicle...so does that count?

In truth, you need it from the horses mouth, which means contacting VOSA/DVLA and getting it in writing. Or just doing it and going for the VIC check and seeing what happens. At the end of the day a Q-plate isn't that much of a bother, if it gives you the vehicle you want.

[western]

I've noticed a few unwelcome holes in my chassis recently, and thinking of this too, and it would be nice if there was a clear answer.

Though with the points system, I'm not sure where I'd stand

Engine is now a 200tdi, suspension is the same, chassis wouldn't be, axles are, steering has been converted to power steering [i presume it wouldn't have been originally in 1985] so I guess I'd lose those points.

And then the gearbox has been replaced, but with a stronger type for the 200tdi engine, so not sure where I'd stand with that. Same type of gearbox though.

if the vehicle you have after the chassis change is the exactly the same [except for a new chassis] as before then I can't see any reason why it should end up with a Q reg plate, it is not a 'radically altered' vehicle like a VW Beetle rebuilt as a rear engined VW based beach buggy would be.