200tdi will not run propperly

[Landowner]

Have you run it from a tank of diesel going directly into the fuel pump - bypassing everything (lift pump, filters pipework)?

If not, then do it. Just because it appears clear when stopped doesn't mean that it is.

IRFARMER... Thought that it may have jumped a tooth in the first instance but when the cover was taken off everything was tight and as it should be. The inside of the cover was nice and clean and it was timed up properly.

It is easy to get it even a full tooth out when changing a belt but it's fine and the symptoms are the same as before it was changed.

I have run it from a seperate diesel supply to eliminate filter and tank problems but still the same. Everything on the fuel side is OK from supply to pump timing to injectors.

Time to resume scratching heads.

[Station-MotorSport]

Well it sounds like you have tried most things!

I will just run through everything that I would check and then you can comment if you have tried it or if you havent (by the way this is just for disco 200/300 but a general diesel method)!

Fuel Supply Checks:

1.) Have a visual check of pipes, pumps, injectors etc for leaks, cracks, bends, kinks, damage.

2.) Swap fuel filter. If still not correct run from a clean can of diesel - if this cures it suspect fuel lines, tank etc.

3.) Check lift pump, if lift pump is pumping correctly then suspected injection pump, if not swap with known good.

4.) With engine idling loosen the injector pipes and ensure that the fuel pump has a strong injection pulse if it doesnt the suspect injection pump.

5.) If you have access try a set of known good injectors in the vehicle.

Exhaust System Checks:

1.) Loosen the exhaust system at downpipe and try again - if it runs now then the exhaust system is blocked (particulate filter if fitted, crushed pipework etc).

2.) Check that the turbo wastegate actuator is working - possible split diaphram, seized etc - test with an airline set to low PSI (12psi usually is enough).

3.) Check EGR system if fitted - this can cause smoke issues, usually black however.

Intake System Checks:

1.) Run with air box disconnected to see if it revs.

2.) Fit a pressure gauge to the intake manifold to ensure the turbo is actually boosting.

3.) Next try running with the intercooler disconnected at the intake manifold - if the engine now revs, but black smokes suspect blocked intercooler.

Other Diagnostic Checks:

1.) Compression test on each cylinder

2.) Sniff test on exhaust system at idle for coolant in exhaust system.

3.) Coolant test for exhaust gases in coolant system.

More In-Depth Mechanical Checks:

1.) Check injection pump timing.

2.) Check camshaft timing.

3.) Check for loose sprockets etc on camshaft / injection pump / crackshaft - it has been known in my experience for woodruff keys to snap and for sprockets to randomly rotate when running.

4.) Check none of the fuel adjustment screws on the injection pump have had the lockwire removed, allowing them to vibrate loose and 'un-adjust' themselves.

I think that covers most of the stuff I would check, I have probably missed something out!

Oh and just to clarify the colour of smoke:

Blue - oil burning - rings, stem seals etc

Steamy White - Water in combustion cyle - head gasket, head cracked, block cracked

Slightly Greyish White (and stinks of diesel) - non combustion - Injector spray patterns wrong, blocked fuel supply, exhaust system etc

Sooty Black (and again stinks) - Far too much diesel injected - Adjustment screw been fiddled with, not enough boost etc

[TheRecklessEngineer]

I have had the engine running with the lift pump sucking from a can of diesel to eliminate the tank, also plenty of diesel pumping to injector pump.

Just spotted this. When you ran it from a separate diesel supply, did you connect to the lift pump or directly to the injection pump?

I know you say everything on the fuel side is ok, but these are classic fuel starvation symptoms. I've been fooled into thinking the fuel supply is fine on a variety of similar problems several times now.

[Landowner]

Just spotted this. When you ran it from a separate diesel supply, did you connect to the lift pump or directly to the injection pump?

I know you say everything on the fuel side is ok, but these are classic fuel starvation symptoms. I've been fooled into thinking the fuel supply is fine on a variety of similar problems several times now.

Well Station-motorsport I've done all that except running it with the exhaust disconnected which I'm going to try on Monday. Thanks for that, the smoke is unburned fuel which only occurs when throttle applied, ticking over is perfect and it starts on the button.

As for the lift pump that was the first thing we suspected and so put a new one on, the fuel comes up even when turning the engine by hand so not that.

New filter and no leaks in housing and clear plastic pipe to see fuel getting to pump.

I'm hoping the exhaust is blocked somehow, we'll see tomorrow.

[TheRecklessEngineer]

As for the lift pump that was the first thing we suspected and so put a new one on, the fuel comes up even when turning the engine by hand so not that.

New filter and no leaks in housing and clear plastic pipe to see fuel getting to pump.

I know it might look like fuel is being delivered, but it might not be. It can be very deceptive looking at fuel flowing through plastic pipe.

The only way you can be totally sure:

Remove the pipe from the injection pump inlet on the banjo fitting itself. Do the same for the return. Pipe up a bottle of diesel directly to the inlet of the pump, take the return back to the bottle but leave it out of the diesel so you can monitor it.

Start the engine and watch the return line for any sign of air ingress. There should be a good flow of diesel with no bubbles.

[Landowner]

I know it might look like fuel is being delivered, but it might not be. It can be very deceptive looking at fuel flowing through plastic pipe.

The only way you can be totally sure:

Remove the pipe from the injection pump inlet on the banjo fitting itself. Do the same for the return. Pipe up a bottle of diesel directly to the inlet of the pump, take the return back to the bottle but leave it out of the diesel so you can monitor it.

Start the engine and watch the return line for any sign of air ingress. There should be a good flow of diesel with no bubbles.

Diesel squirting out of injector pipes when loosened at injector and fuel returning via return to tank.

I am certain that this is not fuel related .

[redneck]

I know you stated that the timing is correct, but are you relying on the pulley timing marks or have you degreed the crank and checked the cam and fuel pump with a DTI etc.

[monkeyb0y]

Just a question...on the day it played up or just before...did you do anything like fill up ?

Silly question which I spose is answered by using a separate fuel supply...but could you have put dodgy fuel in ?

Gotta ask the simple ones :-)

Rich

[Landowner]

I know you stated that the timing is correct, but are you relying on the pulley timing marks or have you degreed the crank and checked the cam and fuel pump with a DTI etc.

The motor was running brilliant before the fault so I can't believe that anything has slipped to cause the problem.

We did think that the timing belt may have jumped a tooth but found everything to be ok when the cover was taken off to fit new belt. (the belt was dry, clean and tight and the problem came on slowly not suddenly)

monkeyboy... tried it on fresh diesel from a can so that's out as well. When I suss it out it'll be something simple....I hope

[sheltie50]

I've seen something simillar on a Volvo, One exhaust box had collapsed, only found it when a bit shot out of the tail pipe and hit me in the leg !

On another thought, I had a moment after filling up my diesel with petrol, are you sure you have pure diesel in the tank.

Is the fuel clean and when was the filter changed last.

[Landowner]

I've seen something simillar on a Volvo, One exhaust box had collapsed, only found it when a bit shot out of the tail pipe and hit me in the leg !

On another thought, I had a moment after filling up my diesel with petrol, are you sure you have pure diesel in the tank.

Is the fuel clean and when was the filter changed last.

New filter etc in fact all fuel side checked and tested..Going to look silly if it is fuel related after all this checking.

[Landowner]

New filter etc in fact all fuel side checked and tested..Going to look silly if it is fuel related after all this checking.

Well, been up to 90 today and put the injectors back in with new washers and leak off pipes. Exhaust loosened off at the turbo with half inch gap for any pressure due to blockage to be released.

Engine started after a few turns as the system bled itself and ticked over like a good one. Squeezed the accelerator and the revs slowly increased but then she started to struggle and was missing and smoking badly. Let go the throttle and the engine dropped back to a smooth tickover with no smoke.

Swithched off and took rocker cover off. Engine started again after half a turn and ticked over like a good one, all rockers going up and down in order as they should, inside engine as clean as a whistle as is the oil. tried to rev again and same problem, struggling to pick up and missing but intermittently trying to fire on all four and smoking very bad (unburned diesel) dropped back to perfect tickover.

Switched off and went home.

So it's not an exhaust blockage

I think it's got to be injectors even though the man who tested them said they were ok, she's getting overfueled when trying to rev and that much fuel is going in that it's missing badly.

I'm going to try fitting some 300 injectors that I have to see if it will run on all four with those in, that at least will tell me if my 200 injectors are working or not.

Watch this space.

[steve b]

In that case it sounds like its def fuel related, maybe Les is right and its the IP itself thats failed. Thought of another little thing you could check - is the breather side of the diaphragm on the IP clear to breathe , and is the diaphragm itself ok?

Keep at it , its only metal bits ...well maybe some rubber type bits too

cheers

Steveb

[Landowner]

In that case it sounds like its def fuel related, maybe Les is right and its the IP itself thats failed. Thought of another little thing you could check - is the breather side of the diaphragm on the IP clear to breathe , and is the diaphragm itself ok?

Keep at it , its only metal bits ...well maybe some rubber type bits too

cheers

Steveb

Checked the diaphram on the old pump and the pipe was ok not kinked etc.

The 'new' pump diaphram hasn't been checked but the problem didn't change with the fitment of the 'new' pump

The problem is I now believe fuel related but.

all parts checked and timings etc

Let's hope the 300 injectors improve things.

Just a thought, I've been testing with the intercooler pipe off so maybe I'll put it back on for a quick test before doing injectors.

[sheltie50]

Has some bu**ER left part procesed beer in your tank on his way home from the pub

Must must be fuel related after all the work youve done, any chance of a crushed fuel line or air being sucked at tank pump etc.

[Landowner]

Has some bu**ER left part procesed beer in your tank on his way home from the pub

Must must be fuel related after all the work youve done, any chance of a crushed fuel line or air being sucked at tank pump etc.

Going to check pipes from pump to injectors and swap injectors to see if that will fix it. After that I'm completely baffled as half a dozen knowledgeable have said dont worry I'll fix it no problem and then are as baffled as me.

Have had all the things that I've checked suggested plus broken cam, rings, pistons etc. Thing is it was running fantastic and then suddenly lost power so I dont think it can be mechanical.

[matt bristol]

I noticed in one of you earlier posts you said that you are testing with the intercooler pipe removed. Are you directing the turbo air into the manifold some other way? If the intake mainfold is drawing from fresh air (eg non-turbo charged so at normal pressure) then it will begin over fuelling at about 1500 rpm - 200rpm whenever your turbo used to kick in

[Landowner]

I noticed in one of you earlier posts you said that you are testing with the intercooler pipe removed. Are you directing the turbo air into the manifold some other way? If the intake mainfold is drawing from fresh air (eg non-turbo charged so at normal pressure) then it will begin over fuelling at about 1500 rpm - 200rpm whenever your turbo used to kick in

That's one thing I will check before setting fire to it.

The misfire and smoke starts as soon as the throttle is opened and the problem is the same as when the pipes were connected.

Could be that the problem has been cured though and it is overfueling so I'll definitely check that. Ta

[Landowner]

Right, that's it I give up.

Still wont run even with intercooler pipe back on.

300 injectors will not fit in 200 so that's out,

looks like I'll have to take the engine out and dump it.

[Station-MotorSport]

Right.

You say white smoke and overfuelling.

If its white smoke its a lack of combustion, ie, not enough diesel, timing, injector spray patterns, injection pump, faulty diesel etc.

If its black smoke then its a genuine overfuelling.

Removing the intercooler pipe and running it will give black smoke, ie too much fuel, or not enough air.

If its white smoke it is definately lack of combustion NOT overfuelling, ie; engine mechanicals / lack of diesel etc.

We have had injection pumps and injectors tested before that come back 'ok' but the engine still has faults, where did you get your stuff tested / replacement parts? Are you 100% sure that these parts are known good.

[kkk2]

Had something similar this week as was watching this thread with interest, we lifted the head and found head was warped between 2 and 3 cylinder, head gasket was just starting to show signs of burn. New 200 tdi head and everything is hunky dory again.

K

[Landowner]

Right.

You say white smoke and overfuelling.

If its white smoke its a lack of combustion, ie, not enough diesel, timing, injector spray patterns, injection pump, faulty diesel etc.

If its black smoke then its a genuine overfuelling.

Removing the intercooler pipe and running it will give black smoke, ie too much fuel, or not enough air.

If its white smoke it is definately lack of combustion NOT overfuelling, ie; engine mechanicals / lack of diesel etc.

We have had injection pumps and injectors tested before that come back 'ok' but the engine still has faults, where did you get your stuff tested / replacement parts? Are you 100% sure that these parts are known good.

That'll be the next thing to check.

is it possible that the injectors were not tested properly

and is the replacement pump a good one?

I dont want to go spending 100's of pounds on it as I don't have the money, I've already spent 100quid on the pump and a tenner getting the injectors tested so dont want the bill to get up to the cost of a replacement engine which I would put at 350 pounds.

So new pump is out....replacement pump has been retimed and I trust that so looking for some cheap replacement injectors to eliminate that.

Had something similar this week as was watching this thread with interest, we lifted the head and found head was warped between 2 and 3 cylinder, head gasket was just starting to show signs of burn. New 200 tdi head and everything is hunky dory again.

K

I think compression test is a must before I continue, then put in some replacement injectors, I tried some 300tdi ones that I have but they are way too small. Could do with a known good set to try.

.

[Landowner]

I think compression test is a must before I continue, then put in some replacement injectors, I tried some 300tdi ones that I have but they are way too small. Could do with a known good set to try.

.

Right, we got some time today and did a compression test on the 200tdi. All cylinders at 400 thingies on the whatsit gauge so looking good.

Not mechanical problem then.

Next was to put all injectors back and refit the fuel pipes.

My mate Malc noticed that the spill off pipe between one and two was split so we replaced it.

On the list of things to check was the banjo bolt where the spill off pipe joins the back of the pump. There is a filter in it and a very small hole instead of a big one as in the fuel fed banjo bolt at the front of the injector pump.

Blew this through with the air line and fitted a copper washer as one was missing, and put it back together.

Fired up the engine and she ran, ticked over and revved when throttle applied, lots of white smoke on over run which slowly cleared.

Engine will now start and run, it's a bit hesitant when throttle first applied but clears to rev freely as it should.

Looks like problem solved and thanks to Station-Motorsport for the suggestion to check spill off and fuel return .

I would never have thought that the fuel return system would be so important on what seems to be such a basic engine.

Job done though and thanks to all who contributed.

[Landowner]

Well, I WAS WRONG...

Problem still there and have tried literally everything.

When warm it will rev but lots of blue smoke which clears away completely if you keep revving it hard. Exhaust clean as a whistle unless held a steady revs then smoke starts chuffing out again.

any ideas please

[Landowner]

Changed all the injectors today for known good ones and no difference whatsoever

Any idea what happens if one was to shorten the wastegate rod as mine was bent where the air filter had dislodged and trapped between it and the wing

If any one could tell me the correct way to adjust this rod then I would be much obliged.