simonr Posted June 24, 2011 Share Posted June 24, 2011 Oh, and a couple of evenings with a CNC Mill! First with two motors. The second motor drives directly into the gearbox (brake mechanism) so as not to stress the long connecting rod that runs through the centre of the drum additionally. I ran out of time to machine the motor adapter for the third motor, though I put the female spline in the top gear to receive the motor. It is nearly 1am and I have to sleep some time! The winch has been geared up a bit - to about the same ratio as a standard 8274. Any faster and the drag in the gearbox starts to be a limiting factor in the no load line speed. Although this was more for research than to turn in to a product - as so often happens - half way through building it, I thought of an uber-cool better way of achieving the objective. Nick (RogueVogue) Watts is in part responsible for the better idea. Taking the motor, gearing it up then gearing it down (in effect) isn't such a bright idea from an efficiency point of view - so I thought, what about re-making the whole gearbox. By using a fairly unusual gearbox topography, you can achieve the required reduction with far fewer parts than in most winches. As gear cutting is still beyond my capabilities, I intend printing a prototype on my 3D Printer / rapid prototyping machine. That's what it's for after all! Si Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soren Frimodt Posted June 24, 2011 Share Posted June 24, 2011 Great tech as always si! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CwazyWabbit Posted June 24, 2011 Share Posted June 24, 2011 Under full load that's going to take some current! Good work Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonr Posted June 24, 2011 Author Share Posted June 24, 2011 Under full load that's going to take some current! Good work I think, under full load you're going to be more worried about your 90 turning into a 130! Si Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CwazyWabbit Posted June 24, 2011 Share Posted June 24, 2011 I think, under full load you're going to be more worried about your 90 turning into a 130! Si Lol, I await the test video with great anticipation! Please let there be a test video Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted June 24, 2011 Share Posted June 24, 2011 Nice Prototyping Si, If as I understand pricing I've heard re the finished product, its bordering on a billy bargain, and this would really give the competiton a real run for their money and something to worry about Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobtail84 Posted June 24, 2011 Share Posted June 24, 2011 Very good idea Si and it's long over due and I have a 14.5m hydraulic toy for you to play with. Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zim Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 Si, you are truly amazing ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elbekko Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 Nice! As gear cutting is still beyond my capabilities, I intend printing a prototype on my 3D Printer / rapid prototyping machine. That's what it's for after all! If you want to do some load testing with prototyped gears, it may be cheaper to have them printed too? http://i.materialise.com/support/materials/titanium http://i.materialise.com/support/materials/stainless-steel I think the titanium would work especially well, but I have no idea about the price Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynic-al Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 Wow! Will the rest of the casing / drum /shafts / gears be up to it? Infact if your going to the effort of mounting the motors and making a new gearbox surely you could just remake the whole thing to your own spec? By making the drum bigger you would be giving space for more cable and increasing your line speed without having to run the gearbox faster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonr Posted June 28, 2011 Author Share Posted June 28, 2011 Wow! Will the rest of the casing / drum /shafts / gears be up to it? I tested it by welding the drum to the tie-bars then using a torque wrench to turn the motor input. A winch motor produces about 30Nm torque at stall - so two motors give about 60Nm. I found that generally at about 150Nm, the welds broke but I failed to cause any damage to the winch itself. 150Nm translates into 5 motors or 64,000 Lbs Pull - so I'm reasonably convinced the Tds is a good starting point for up-rating. Certainly it has fewer intrinsic weak points than an 8274. Infact if your going to the effort of mounting the motors and making a new gearbox surely you could just remake the whole thing to your own spec? By making the drum bigger you would be giving space for more cable and increasing your line speed without having to run the gearbox faster. Well, that's kind of the conclusion I drew while I was machining the parts. It wouldn't take much more effort to make a whole winch. When we were driving back from the Scotia Challenge (600 miles gives you a while to think!), Nick & I considered what as a competitor, what he would ideally like out of a winch. We designed a 'fantasy' winch which ticked all the boxes - then set about designing one! The end result meets most of the requirements and ends up looking fairly different to current winches. It seemed clear that something designed from scratch would be better than something, which with the best intentions, is cobbled together out of an existing winch. Along the way, we came up with a couple of interesting modifications for an 8274 including one which replaces the brake assembly with one which works better. A result of this is that the main shaft doesn't need the helical cam arrangement as it currently has - so can just be a plain shaft with two gears. This results in it being up to 4x stronger than standard - but cheap & easy to produce. However, 8274's are well catered for in upgrades form other companies - so it's probably better to produce a whole new winch and side-step the competition! Si Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night Train Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 Would your fantasy winch work like a capstan with a take up spool so that line pull and rope capacity isn't compromised? That's what I would start thinking of. Alternatively a big flat winch drum with the drive on the edge like a Scammell winch. Bit heavy though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonr Posted June 28, 2011 Author Share Posted June 28, 2011 No and No. I have an idea for the former though modeled on rescue helicopter winches! Si Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zardos Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 My Fantasy winch Twin motor Big/Wide drum 38m of 12mm rope Air freespool Automatic 3 speed gears (with manual override) 1. Standard 2. I'm very stuck in the mud (2:1 or 3:1 reduction) 3. Very fast for line retraction (2:1 or 3:1 increase) - or auto geared to keep a minimum load on the rope Auto line laying on drum under low tension (just enough to prevent rope cutting in to previous layer) even when there is no load Smooth braking Motor load/torque + temp and line out distance readings and alarms Small form factor for very little reduction in approach/departure angles and extra weight Silent operation and costs less than £100 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtyninety Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 Something like this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zim Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 My Fantasy winch Twin motor Big/Wide drum 38m of 12mm rope Air freespool Automatic 3 speed gears (with manual override) 1. Standard 2. I'm very stuck in the mud (2:1 or 3:1 reduction) 3. Very fast for line retraction (2:1 or 3:1 increase) - or auto geared to keep a minimum load on the rope Auto line laying on drum under low tension (just enough to prevent rope cutting in to previous layer) even when there is no load Smooth braking Motor load/torque + temp and line out distance readings and alarms Small form factor for very little reduction in approach/departure angles and extra weight Silent operation and costs less than £100 apart from the £100.... you've described a saley winch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daan Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 wats wrong with PTO? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zardos Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 apart from the £100.... you've described a saley winch I don't think it does auto line laying, it might have gears (I thought 2 speed) but not automatic gears No line out distance reading Most winches meet some of these criteria but not all. For gearing/speed I though the following would be ideal Where Ground speed < wheel speed (i.e. low traction) then increase torque to try and increase ground speed up to wheel speed Where Ground speed = wheel speed (i.e. good traction) then winch line speed = ground speed Where Ground speed > wheel speed (i.e sliding down a hill) apply the brakes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M&S Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 Wouldn't it be easier to just not get stuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zim Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 lol.... i'm all for the KISS theory ! I think i'd prefer being able to select my gear, this way you know what it's going to do when you might be able to do what you want (kind of) with a 2 stage hydraulic pump Ground speed is normally the same as wheel speed. What happens when you winch in the front and spin the wheels in reverse ? A handy little technique My wish list : bearings on the drum variable power (i.e. hydraulic spool valve) gears (but 3 + free, not 2 like i have now) big rope capacity Auto line laying / distances etc aren't on my list G Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonr Posted June 29, 2011 Author Share Posted June 29, 2011 Our list was surprisingly similar! I think if it makes it beyond the prototype stage you'll be quite pleased! I'm surprised by the 'silent operation' wish! I rather like the clicking noise the 8274 makes! It's innevitable it will make some noise, probably similar to a Tds by virtue of having straight cut gears as they are stronger than helical. It's not quite going to be £100 - even a motor worth having costs double that! We didn't think of the auto line spooling. It's difficult to do - but something that works under low tension is certainly possible. Most of the others are there in one form or another though! If you come and ply me with Beer at Billing - I MIGHT show you my prototype! I have another idea which needs prototyping - which actually came from Helicopter winches! Essentially a winch head with the motor and a self tensioning helical capstan which feeds the rope into a remote storage device. The potential advantage of this is unlimited space available for the rope and a very small form factor for the winch head, with constant line pull / speed. The 'clever' bit is the rope storage! Si Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
treebloke Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 The 'clever' bit is the rope storage! Si How could this be, maybe a double drum winch with one drum slightly smaller than the other so the tension or pulling drum has plenty of rope to maintain tension and the smaller drum to store the rope but not under load, could never work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zardos Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 How could this be, maybe a double drum winch with one drum slightly smaller than the other so the tension or pulling drum has plenty of rope to maintain tension and the smaller drum to store the rope but not under load, could never work. I thought of a 2 drum / capstan + drum as well with sprung tensioner to adjust the storage drum speed i.e line goes tight and straighter, the movement of sprung tensioner slows second drum speed or line goes slack and the sprung tension wheel takes up slack and it's movement speeds up motor This would also take in to account that the second drum's rope intake will speed up as it stores more layers of rope. As there is little/no tension on the storage drum then not auto laying won't be problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zardos Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 Something like this Hmm not sure the helicopter has the power to lift my landy out of the mud over obstacles And rather more expensive to buy and maintain than a winch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daan Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 I have another idea which needs prototyping - which actually came from Helicopter winches! Essentially a winch head with the motor and a self tensioning helical capstan which feeds the rope into a remote storage device. The potential advantage of this is unlimited space available for the rope and a very small form factor for the winch head, with constant line pull / speed. The 'clever' bit is the rope storage! Si Is this not what the nokken winch on the 101 does? Daan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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