series 3 disc brakes1

[RobotMan]

Hi,

I have been waiting to see the responses as I expected a lot of negatives as lots of people have looked at this. It is pleasing to see that the answers are positive and taking it seriously.

Firstly I am just a LR owner not an engineer so my comments are completely unproven and are offered for discussion.

I started off looking at narrowing a RRC axle using custom half-shafts, Then I talked to a reputable engineering company who work on LR products, they suggested cutting down KAM long spline H/S. I now have 2 sets though it is arguable if I needed the rears. I may still need a shorter H/S in one side and I see that Rakeway has been suggested in a couple of topics and at a reasonable price.

Next I wanted to look at the swivel swap as you have. I hoped but have not tried yet that the lip on the swivel could be made to fit inside the axle tube. It is great news that it does and sounds like it is perfect? Grinding off the axle lip is a pain but not major.

The key is that you retain the lip in one half (axle or swivel and that it is a good fit) as the sheer loading will be higher than on the back axle due to the width of the swivel and stub axle tubes etc..

You have made your work much more difficult though by using 7 bolt swivels, if you use RRC 6 bolt swivels then you can re-drill the holes as Series have the bolt pattern rotated by 90 deg which leaves the room to re-rill. Also why use studs, by using a 6 bolt swivel you can tap the holes and use the standard bolts. This way you have reduced the modifications down to one on the axle ends and one on the spring mounts.

One aspect that I have not measured yet is the resulting track width. If this does not work then I would suggest going down the narrowing route, this is very common in the US. I planned to cut and prepare the axle then just tack it up before getting a coded welder to do the final welding. This should solve the insurance / legal issues then apart from the H/S and width all is standard and you can use your 7 bolt axle. Some/one person on this forum has done this without a jig so it is possible but jigs are available to buy in the US or to make.

One aspect of LR products is that in the US the axle flange is a casting that is a push fit and then welded in place, therefore it is really easy to narrow them, LR use friction to but weld the flange on ans is much more difficult. another option is to use a Salisbury axle as the tubes are I believe a push fit into the pigs head (diff case)then welded like I described for US axles so maybe easier to narrow? There are a number of fabrication companies that do this kind of work for Drag Racing and the custom cars.

Bizarrely it had not occurred to me to use a Rose joint on the standard swivel arm and a LHD Swivel for the drag link this will solve the problem completely.

I hope that this makes sense and is useful, if I have missed something important then I hope that someone notices and tells me.

Good luck.

Just out of interest the front axle end flanges are now mig welded rather than friction welded.

Front Salisbury would be nice but they don't come cheap.

The track rod on my 404 'Mog is bent to clear under the Diff. Seriously heavy bar though. If you could take a stock rod and press it until failure then test the replacement to say 10% over that value and it doesn't deform then that would seem reasonable to use.

[FridgeFreezer]

Rakeway do good stuff but be prepared to get d*cked about by them for 6 months on custom stuff beyond the expected delivery date. That way you avoid disappointment

Volvos have kinked track rods, although the kink is actually in the TRE casting not the rod. No reason not to go to heavier tube with a kink in it, standard ones aren't exactly beefy and I'm sure someone round here could do some maths on material strengths for a bent one.

[discomikey]

i will be using the 7 bolt swivels, as i have 4 of them lying about, which although not as ideal as using RRC 6 bolt swivels it will still work.

as for the track width, i dont yet know if it will change as i have not measured this but did take it into account, i cant see if being by much if there is a change, and the series swivel ball is larger in diameter which would suggest if any change the front axle would get slightly thinner than standard which would not look too out of place.

if i have to cut and shut, i will get a local company to do the welding for me and get it all signed off. i would also use the disco flnages as it would be easier to cut and weld disco flanges onto the series axle than cutting and shutting the standard axle then modifying.

a custom bent rod would be an idea, however it will be less accurate come tracking time, my thoughts are if i can get the disco hubs onto the series axle and it is the right track width, i may be able to use the standard series track rod? well have to see when it comes to mocking up with my test axle which i will pick up hopefully monday

and my holiday was absolutely amasing by the way

[dirtyninety]

would have been easier to weld coil spring cups to your series 3 chassis...

[discomikey]

dont swear..

[FridgeFreezer]

He don't know no better, he's one of those uncultured defender owners

[missingsid]

i will be using the 7 bolt swivels, as i have 4 of them lying about, which although not as ideal as using RRC 6 bolt swivels it will still work.

as for the track width, i dont yet know if it will change as i have not measured this but did take it into account, i cant see if being by much if there is a change, and the series swivel ball is larger in diameter which would suggest if any change the front axle would get slightly thinner than standard which would not look too out of place.

if i have to cut and shut, i will get a local company to do the welding for me and get it all signed off. i would also use the disco flnages as it would be easier to cut and weld disco flanges onto the series axle than cutting and shutting the standard axle then modifying.

I havn't managed to get my spare RRC corners out of the garage yet to measure, however bu mesuring the RRC axle tube lenght and deducting it from the hub to hub width of 1550mm then adding the difference to the Series axle tube I come up 20mm narrower than a Series width of 1400mm.

If this prooves to be tha case then I was thinking of some spacers that include the locating grooves and are drilled and tapped for bolts in both directions. Series from flange to spacer - 6 bolts and bolts from swivel flange to spacer - 7 bolts in your case. The spacers would be 10mm on each side which is more than the rrc flange width or similar at least?

The spacer would also adapt the different bolt PCD without and LR parts being modified!

Worth mentioning, my hub to hub widths are from a rear axle so I have assumed that they are the same hub to hub as a front axle?

Marc.

[discomikey]

this might be one of the best solutions as it shouldnt need to be too expensive to get some spacers made up for the axles, i can do proper engineering drawings so i can draw some up to the right specs and see what occurs.

[discomikey]

right, axle bought for a couple of pints, i have to remove it myself. think ill take the loader tractor and angle grinder.

going on the between axle and swivel spacer idea, i have made some CAD drawings which will be up probably tonight so you can see what im thinking.

im assuming that Missingsid is right with the spacer width at 20mm for now untill i can make some proper measurements. however my mate has said that he will make me the spacers up in his spare time at his work so it shouldnt cost too much at all.

hopefully some more picture time soon, and hopefully some time off work to set about playing with it.

a question. how do i go about setting axles up on the right orientation while there off the vehicle (for working out castor angles)??

so far i think that the angles occur on the swivel balls and you just have to mount the holes in the right orientation (eg. on the disco one, the top hole in the swivel flange is 0deg or TDC on the axle.

the series one i think that the 2 top holes would be level across them if that makes sense, anyway my spacers will hopefully make this become clear later.

[RobotMan]

The Diff face is datum for rotation. But that isn't vertical in carline. I could check when I get back to work next week. Best bet is to measure angle of Diff face relative to line through swivel pins and reproduce that.

[discomikey]

good plan, am i right in thinking that the series diff facing is vertical?

here are drawings of the spacers. what you think?

now i turn to the materials used. obviously steel, but will i need a high grade steel for them? also i will be using high tensile M10 fine thread studs/bolts with nylock nuts, threadlock and torqued up.

[discomikey]

sorry, just properly read the previous post, cheers the diff face isnt vertical but i can still use it.

[discomikey]

also the bottom 4 holes on the spacer are a bit close together but this could be sorted with slightly thinner bolt/studs, say an imperial size near 9mm?

[missingsid]

im assuming that Missingsid is right with the spacer width at 20mm for now untill i can make some proper measurements.

erm it was a very simple measurement with a large assumption.

I hope it goes well.

I wait with anticipation.

Marc.

[Gremlin]

Did you see my post on series disks??

http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=22910

I was going to do what you are doing but i eventually scrapped all the possibilities and variations in the project.

As fridge said quite rightly the less customs bits you have the better.

But well done for trying anyway.

G

[SOA 93]

I had some thoughts about this a few years ago, my thinking was to use the coiler shafts as well as the swivels, never got round to measuring it up due to a change in plan.

However I always assumed that with the increased track of the coiler axles there would be more than enough space to have a machined adaptor made to bolt the two items together as has been suggested, the same as has been drawn but I always assumed it would need to be 50mm or so thick, threads for leaf in one side coiler threads in the other.

Of course this means the measurements need to be based on the drive shaft length rather than the casing length, I'd do this by measuring how far the driveshaft protrudes out the coiler axle case at both ends then putting the correct diff into the leafer axle and inserting the coiler shafts and measure how far the shafts protude from that case then the difference is the thickness of the adaptor, no idea what the track width would end up at, but could the same adaptor then be used on the rear axle?

None of this gets over the steering issues and would obviously mean a change in track width.

Advantages (if it would work) are off the shelf driveshafts and upgrades and assuming an increase in track width, increased steering lock and stability.

[ejparrott]

I'm no expert on them, but there are wheels with different offsets are there not? Can you not use a thicker spacer, and then use wheels of an offset that brings the tyres back in line with the body?

[discomikey]

Gremlin, i have seen your conversion, a nice, neat conversion. but ive started this now so ill have to see it through or look like a twonk

this track width is the problem, my land rover is on brand new modulars, and the track width is perfect.

anyway, ive got my axle now, and a bonus is its got FWH's on it

so more and more measurements, and i will send the drawings to my mate who has kindly agreed to machine me up some spacers. when they come back i will be able to mock up the axle and see how well it works. its taking some time, mainly because i have been busy but i hope i will be able to get it all sorted before i go off to uni.

hopefully the only modifications made to standard parts will be of course the spacers, and i may have to turn down the thicker front shafts but thats no problem as i will do that myself and then if it goes tits up its my fault.

after its all done ill speak to my insurance company and that will determine if the conversion actually gets fitted when its done or wether i wait with it ready to bolt on till my renewal when i should get a discount similar to the amount that it would put my insurance up.

[discomikey]

right, so no pictures at the mo, but last night i went up to a mates house who has a lathe and mocked some bits up. i have had to lathe the longer part of a halfshaft to fit it inside the swivel, also i have had to lathe the bearing housing out of the disco stub axle to give clearance for the UJ. so it now resembles a series stub axle with disco bearing sizes. thus the shaft problem sorted. may need to take a snippet more off the UJ but as is, it does fit inside it. though theres not too much clearance. now just for the spacer. which needs to be 25mm so the 20mm guestimate was pretty close.

[oscar03]

i have RRC hubs on my 2a. the conversion was done by the previous owner.

from what i can see (i havnt taken it apart, will have to soon due to leaky swivels) spacers have been made up to go between the RRC swivel ball and the series axle case. this is used as an adaptor for the stud pattern, and also to put the wheels back in the correct position. without them, the track on the front would be far too small.

again, from what the PO told me, the half shafts are RRC ones that have been cut and rewelded on a lathe so they fit. when he said that bit, i was a bit worried about the strength, but since ive owned it, they have been fine. they have coped with abuse on RTV trials etc. the car was the PO's MOT'ed off road toy that he used at pay n plays, and also went to LRO off road trips, the last being the one in wales and he never had any problems.

the steering uses the original series steering arms off the swivels, replacing the bottom swivel pin that would have been their originally. this sorts out the problem of the track rod. again, this bit had me worried to start with, but its been through a bit of testing (by me), some of it un intentional! such as driving through a field at about 25mph (was in a rush), and not realising their was a small drainage ditch of 1.5 foot across, and 1 foot deep (the grass was above the bumper). the front wheels fell in, the car stopped immediately, the rear came up by about 4 foot, crashed down, bouncing the front out. once it stopped, got out, checked it over, and was fine -drove on.

if you want pics or more info ask.

[discomikey]

thanks very much mate, i think that this may be the way to go after lathing down a series shaft to fit inside the hub its a tight fit and im worried that ive lathed the uj too small and too weak.

with the disco shafts, they could be welded back together with a taper on each part where the weld is to be, this means you can weld it right from the middle out to the outside and would be plenty strong enough.

you may not see much on this project for a while since my crash requires a full rebuild of brian, however during this rebuild hopefully i can get the parts made up and fit them to the rolling chassis in the process. i would be very interested in pictures when you rebuild your hubs as it sounds like exactly what i am trying to do. and the pictures would help me a lot. also measurements of the RRC shafts would be very much appreciated along with their choices of width for the spacers, and their design, my spacers will be (so far) 25mm.

even pictures of the conversion as is would help regarding steering layouts and castor angle.

[oscar03]

hi, i can post a pic of the outside because as i said i didnt do the conversion so im going on what the previous owner told me. although soon (before xmas) i hope to strip one side down as the swivel seal is leaking badly, so if you can wait till then, i will be able to tell how exactly it was done when its in pieces.

this is a link to another forum where its explained with a pic (if your not a member, i'll post a pic on here as well). http://forum.landrovernet.com/showthread.php/218739-Best-Axle-Combo/page2

[discomikey]

yes, i can wait till christmas, as im off to uni on the 28th and my land rover is a bent rolling chassis in the workshop atm. thanks ever so much

[discomikey]

it wont let me see that, registered to that site the other day but it wont let me view the picture it says ive not got the privveliges.

[CwazyWabbit]

it wont let me see that, registered to that site the other day but it wont let me view the picture it says ive not got the privveliges.

Works for me so have attached it here