new defender

[rovernut]

here.

Daan

The reporter says that the Evoque leaves the current Defender hoplessly outdated. Surely you cannot compare like for like and the outdatedness of the Defender is part of its appeal.

[discomikey]

a defender is timeless so in a way she is wrong, but i can see what she means.

[landroversforever]

She is wrong, you cannot compare the Evoke and a defender... One is designed to go with a gucci hand bag, the other a pair of wellies or boots!

[Rich_P]

About half the buyers of the compact Evoque SUV are expected to be women, compared with just a quarter of Land Rover's current customers, and it is also expected to appear to a younger audience.

Many of them will probably opt for a cheaper and more frugal two-wheel-drive version, rather than one kitted out with four-wheel-drive.

This just proves it's all about the badge and nothing more.

But Mr Edwards is eager to stress that the Evoque is "just as capable, if not more capable on some surfaces, than some of our other models".

Like the road maybe because it's road focused?

[Ed Poore]

Someone somewhere once said that the Land Rover (I think the quote slightly pre-dated the Defender but the point still stands) is one of (if not the only) vehicle that is truly class-less and looks like it's meant to be there whatever the situation.

In fact testament to this comment is that I once saw a 90 that lived near me just off the Kings Road in London come back one day plastered in mud (probably been out shooting with a pair of Holland and Hollands) and the following day saw it pull up outside the Park Lane Hotel to drop someone off (albeit after a bit of a clean) and didn't look out of place next to a Ferrari, two Rolls, Bentley and Aston. Who's to know whether it's a farmer driving a Defender or

?

Somehow I don't think the new design quite captures that effect

[jeremy996]

I've just spent too much time and too much money on rebuilding my 1989 110 CSW to probably better than new, so I am not in the market for a new Defender, but that concept does not sell me a vision in any way.

I am looking for the motor vehicle equivalent of a swiss army knife and I believe that I have found it; it takes two cars, a 1972 Morgan 4/4 and a 1989 Land Rover 110 CSW; posh enough for any occasion, scruffy enough not to cause excessive jealousy, suitable for summer, winter, spring floods and autumn winds, collecting maiden aunt from station or mistress from love nest, taking stuff to the tip, collecting the christmas tree and touring Southern Europe.

I don't want a technological tour-de-force or a fashion statement, I want a large, classless vehicle that can do almost anything at a low cost per mile on a "dust to dust" basis; not something that is almost designed to self-distruct one month after the warranty ends. I certainly don't want anything where I have to take the body off to change the engine or some ancillaries; if it cannot be done in a domestic garage with hand tools and a basic code reader or laptop, I don't need it.

Please JLR, design a better Defender, not a better trinket; you won't sell many and they'll be very expensive as you need to design in durability and ease of maintenance, but they'll be around in 100 years, when the Toyota Prius and Lexus Hybrids will be no more than a distant memory or perhaps a vehicle on a plinth; my SVO 110/defender impostor could still be earning it's keep as a working vehicle.

[Mr Bean]

Freelander was created to open up a new market and buyer type to the brand.

Evoque was created to open up a new market and buyer type to the brand.

The Defender already has a well established customer base but it is fairly small. So if you ditch (for example) 100k existing cutomers but create 200k new customers is that not a better "business" position?

Surely that makes the most business sense, remember they are in the market to make money...no other reason than that.

[mrtod]

The Defender already has a well established customer base but it is fairly small. So if you ditch (for example) 100k existing cutomers but create 200k new customers is that not a better "business" position?

Surely that makes the most business sense, remember they are in the market to make money...no other reason than that.

I wouldn't think so...if they create a model that loses many existing customers, but gains lots of new ones then surely that is an argument for a new product for the range. If the DC100 was a new product aimed at a new niche, I would have no problem with it (a new small disco model maybe?).

The Defender customer base is small because the product has been overtaken by, for example, Toyotas. Toyota seem to still be producing commercial vehicles for this niche and they are no charity, so there must be profit in it.

If I were in charge (yea right ) I would use this as an opportunity to redefine the brands...Move Land Rover into a more of a commercial vehicle maker and keep the Range Rover Brand for the more Luxurious Vehicles - Freelander upwards. I think there is room for two or three Land Rover vehicles from a Suzuki sized Jeep with a Defender as the middle product and a larger Iveco Daily sized rival. Obviously sharing technologies, driveline development between business arms including other Tata brands.

I don't see why the new Defender should take any design cues from Range Rover, I think Land Rovers should stand on their own - building on the image of the current Defender.

Obviously these are only my own humble opinions as I do not claim to have any inside knowledge about the way big business works

[Eightpot]

If they have to drop the current Defender, surely they could fill whatever gap remains with a stripped down base model of Discovery. Vinyl seats, wind up windows, less electronics, coil springs, steel wheels etc. It's a decent size and shape and maybe along with some changes to the bumpers and trim, basic headlamps and maybe a different bonnet or something to make it look a little more utility shouldn't affect the cachet of the expensive version.

I think that would be a pretty cool car?

[mrtod]

If they have to drop the current Defender, surely they could fill whatever gap remains with a stripped down base model of Discovery. Vinyl seats, wind up windows, less electronics, coil springs, steel wheels etc. It's a decent size and shape and maybe along with some changes to the bumpers and trim, basic headlamps and maybe a different bonnet or something to make it look a little more utility shouldn't affect the cachet of the expensive version.

I think that would be a pretty cool car?

I think you have a good point. The Disco3 (before they stuck on all the range rover bling of the disco4) was a much more inspired design than the DC100 and much closer to what the new Defender should be. They could continue production of the 3-4 as a utility vehicle after the current discovery is replaced by the disco5.

[Mr Bean]

I too think that Discovery 3 platform would be a good place to start...Just put some round headlights on it so it looks Defenderish.

[discomikey]

but its got fake axles, not full beams...

[Mr Bean]

Why MUST it have beam axles?

[discomikey]

because that is what a defender has

tradition! independant suspension to me just wouldnt seem "defenderish"

it should also have the wind resistiance of a brick

[JJB Serenity]

Just as well there are still plenty of the good ones about

[western]

Has any of you figured out what the DC100 means ?

I think it's for

Defender Concept 100 inch wheelbase. maybe,possibly,

[JJB Serenity]

Delhi Cab 100

[landroversforever]

Disastrous Concept 100(% agree)

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

I think there are 3 things about this new LR

I recently bought "Autocar" - it had the "1st Test" etc of the new envogue, the front cover pretty much said it all

New Babt RR - 1st mpressions read inside, and then a little box that said Reliabily Manufactuer results, LAnd Rover 35th

out of 35th as a manufactuer, so this will impact sales etc

or something pretty close

And thats the 3 things

YES - it will sell, as a company car maybe where its warranty and 3 yrs then dumped, and the image for the Defender is totally

different for the market sector, Post spice for the Envogue - sums it up really - this will be another chelsea tractor, yummy mummys

scholl hack, enspiring junior manager thinks this gives "an Image"

yes, the image we may think is not quite the same but it will sell

2nd, The relaibility, 35th out of 35th is not exactly fantastic is it ? When I was buying my last new car I looked at

RELIABILITY, resale value, fuel economy buld quality and reputation etc, Land Rover didn't get a look in - I would have loved a

proper late loaded RR (not a sport) and if the relaibility / resale had be sensible I might have bought, as it was as a die hard

LR enthusiast absolutely no way would I spend 30-60k on anything in the LR marque - sad but thats the way it is.

3rd We are enthusiasts, the defender is old, it is outdated, it is for any other manufactuer WAY past its shelf life, we love it because

you can fix most with a set of spanners and a hammer, make into whatever trucks we wnat, and hell even compete / rtv / challenge play day

etc, and keep them on a shoe string for years, not exactly music to a manufactuers ears. Mind you TD5 are overly complex, and then the

issue of relaibility / technology kicks back in. the 200/300Td1 is IMHO the best LR made, don't serioulsy like TD5s, but take a non enthusiasts

look at the 90 / defender, its not exactly going to grab you is it ?

I have no doubt they will sell, LR don't really need enthusiasts, they need new sales, and for buyers like me 35th on the reliablity lists will mean

I will look, maybe love and like, but never ever shell out hard earned big £s on anything new with that sort of relaibility - irrelevant of price

or residual

Thats why We have had Mazda MX5s (x3) NOTHING I had Mercs as Co Cars and now a M sport BMW and sue wnated 4wd - bought Honda CRV

NOTHING has ever gone wrong with any of the above, my mercs did 120,000 in 18 months ! x 4

LR are also arrogant, they say "Everythings better" but motoring presses say otherwise, they belive "Brand" will do everything for them, to a degree

with the yummy mummy / pimp-u-like buyers it will, but thats FASHION and that can change hugely and quickly, whereas Loyalty to a brand such as Honda BMW Merc

(although they are not as good as they were - more arrogance ? ) Lexus etc gets you sales. Laughingly I went to Hunters to get some parts for the

90 V8 and parked in customer parking - 2 x salesmen rushed out and asked me to shift it as it lowered the tone and was not welcome on the

forecourt, my reply shocked them somewhat, I left it there and went to the parts Dept, on my return 4 x mechanics were driolling over it and

asked Qs - showed engine, and they loved it, so I made a point of outstaying my welcome but nobody else approached me salesmen scowled from the showroom

Look at Ford, in the past it was "THE" car RANGE to buy - fopr all the right reasosn, and how they lost it along with Vauxhall over the years, LR

are out of step with what as a corporation they need to be good at, pretty bling stuff is short term, lets see if its relaible - not "Better"

I doubt it will be

But as for a replacement of the defender - its the name that kept but nothing like the mosaic market / targetted market

Hey ho

Nige

[mrtod]

35th out of 35th is not exactly fantastic is it ?

I have a feeling that Ratan Tata will not consider that acceptable.

From reading about him, I think owning JLR is about pride as well as profit. Which I think is a good thing.

[boaterboy]

From the pics that I have seen of the Frankfurt show concept vehicle I wonder if it's another victory for form over function?

I suppose it comes down to what market is LR aiming at, farmers et al in dinner jackets?

[UdderlyOffroad]

3rd We are enthusiasts, the defender is old, it is outdated, it is for any other manufactuer WAY past its shelf life, we love it because

you can fix most with a set of spanners and a hammer, make into whatever trucks we wnat, and hell even compete / rtv / challenge play day

etc, and keep them on a shoe string for years, not exactly music to a manufactuers ears. Mind you TD5 are overly complex, and then the

issue of relaibility / technology kicks back in. the 200/300Td1 is IMHO the best LR made, don't serioulsy like TD5s, but take a non enthusiasts

look at the 90 / defender, its not exactly going to grab you is it ?

I have no doubt they will sell, LR don't really need enthusiasts, they need new sales.

Spot on Nige.

However, I for one am hopeful. LR have publicly stated that they are going after the military market (can't find the quote at the mo), which to my mind means it must be capable of being armour plated, which equals a proper ladder chassis (and yes I know armoured jags and the like manage without). Independent suspension is a given too, IMHO.

We will never get a vehicle where you can, say, take a hard top variant and convert it into a station wagon by acquiring a scrapper SW (as I'm doing) and bolting on the relevant panels. But hopefully this will mean that they can fix the obvious Defender shortcomings, such as the seating position, the lack of rear passenger legroom, etc. I saw a -10plate Defender in the pub car park yesterday, and I'm sorry but the fit and finish of the vehicle bodywork was woefull.

The days of hammer and spanners only are over, out of necesssity, because without electronics you will never achieve the required fuel economy and reliability, demanded by the market and required by EU and US legislation.

My hope is that LR come up with a platform (in the engineering sense) that makes a capable basic vehicle, which meets modern standards, and can be adapted for specialist use easily by smaller firms. This includes things like, for instance an open source interface to the in-dash display so that specialist hardware can be integrated (Hydraulic PTO pressure/temp for instance, on a cherry picker truck), plenty of spare fuse positions for additional circuits, etc.

Build a reliable, adaptable platform and the military/specialist vehicle buyers will come...and who knows the farming set will follow. The huntin/shooting/fishing/riding set have their Discos, the Chelsea-rahs have the Evoque/RR/RooneyMobile.

Matt

[Happyoldgit]

I've merged a couple of threads that were covering the same subject.

[boaterboy]

Landrover are unveiling the new defender at the Frankfurt motor show very soon.

Looks like a victory for 'form' over 'function'?

[SteveG]

Hi Nige, your post was a classic....

this will be another chelsea tractor, yummy mummys

scholl hack, enspiring junior manager thinks this gives "an Image"

and then....

and now a M sport BMW

that's "M sport", as in a standard BMW with M badges on and some additional plastic bodywork to entice all aspiring junior managers that think this gives "an Image"

LR are also arrogant, they say "Everythings better" but motoring presses say otherwise, they belive "Brand" will do everything for them, to a degree

with the yummy mummy / pimp-u-like buyers it will, but thats FASHION and that can change hugely and quickly, whereas Loyalty to a brand such as Honda BMW Merc

That's the same Honda who has halved the uk production output and whose 2011 sales to date are almost 40% down on year before. Japan YTD 2011 down ~30%, Row YTD down 31.3%

Brand loyalty doesn't seem to be working here. They may have the reliability, but seem to be lacking desirability.

Whereas JLR are on record growth figures and last year made over £1bn in profit, about 63% of total Honda Groups FY12 profit forecast.