Hybrid_From_Hell Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Righty Ho all, About 2 years ago I did a very basic TIG Welding course in Farnborough,by the end of the course I almost had what I thought were the basics, bought a TIG Welder and practised and practised and practised. For Butt welds (2 bits of metal gap in the middle and weld it up, I was ok, better on thicker stuff, say 3mm, but not so good on say less than 1mm !. Simples, stay away from thin stuff Lap welding (One bit over the other) also "Sort of OK". T welds - ie 1 x bit flat + 1 bit at 90 Degrees etc weld up - er "Non" Ali ? I would love to be able to but coudn't, even though I upgraded to a Whizzy Weco 220 AC?DC TIG with water coller and water colled torch, whilst I could and do TIG some stuff Nicely, I cannot sort out welding anything at any angle. It didn't seem to be any difference what I did or how hard and how often I practised, just didn't improve, as a result probably of not knowing why it was going wrong. Where I had got the basics - then with practise these were good, so I decided enough was enough and I needed a Proper course. And there is a bit of a problem. Welding - especially TIG is not exactly "trendy" I found numerous courses for transendetal happy therapy type things where you could learn to heat rocks and place on people heads along with ringing a Traingle and going "Homdidley" but TIG welding courses are rare. I found one, and it was £299 for 10 weeks at Crawley Colege. Thats 1 evening a week for 10 weeks. I enrolled and have been there for about 4th time, its once a week for 10 weeks, and is a proper certificated welding course mit exams and pass or fail grades. They do right up to and including Coded training, er, which I shall not be doing. The 1st 10 weeks will probably be mainy steel work, so I am competant at all types angles and stylees of welding, the aim is then a further 10 weeks in Ali up to and Including Level 2 Pass - Ali, Steel & Stainless This ongoing review wil show you how bad I was at the start of certain types of weld angles, and the impovement, and if and when I pass. I will scan up the course notes so you can see exactly what is expected and what you get for your money. So far I am hugely impressed, the training is about 8 : 1 and the level of coaching and style spot on. Week 1 was "Enrolemnt" This is done by me being given a series of test pieces (Which form Level 1 exam)n to see the standard of my TIG abilities and where lacking. There were 6 x pieces all test pieces are 150mm x 50mm x 1mm 1mm ?..easy as F to blow apart Piece 1 - Run 3 x beads full length with rods showing bead run etc Piece 2. Butt weld full length can stop and start Piece 3 Lap weld as above Piece 4 T Weld - My Horror Piece 5 V Weld on inside Piece 6 V weld on ^ shape welding the top Results : 1 Borderline pass 2. Pass 3 Debatable 4 FAIL 5 FAIL: 6 FAIL Whilst some of the weld were "OK" they would not be classed good enough for a pass. I was not saying "Be hard / Be Kind" its what the course is for, so I was enrolled Level 1 I have now past Level 1 in 3 weeks, and have the certificate to prove it I was on my way - or so I thought.... I will post up later some course notes and some good bad ugly and pass pieces and explanations as to why / how etc. The fact I past in 3 weeks is due to me having MIG experience of 20 years and the basiscs of TIG and a heap of old course practise, Torch control is everything, when you start TIG you WILL touch the torch down, this will containate the weld, and bugger up the tungtsen tip, in fact you will probably spend more time tip sharpening than welding, here at least I was OK, touch down was rare so welding practise and instruction was high. More laters Level 2 - now thats a whole new worldof pain so far ? 1 FAIL: 2 Fail 3 Fail 4 Fail 5 Fail 6 Fail At least I am consistant More laters Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve b Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 pictures nige , pictures Good move I reckon , proper tuition will stay with you forever The difference in the wieght of the torch compared to a mig takes some getting used to looking forward to seeing the course notes cheers Steveb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 so I am competant Are you sure? :ph34r: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landroversforever Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 The fact I past in 3 weeks is due to me having MIG experience of 20 years and the basiscs of TIG and a heap of old course practise, Torch control is everything, when you start TIG you WILL touch the torch down, this will containate the weld, and bugger up the tungtsen tip, in fact you will probably spend more time tip sharpening than welding, here at least I was OK, touch down was rare so welding practise and instruction was high. So right on the touch-downs. You will touch down, it drove me mad when I was starting!! And as you say, I spent the majority of the first two weeks sharpening the tungstens Wish I had my own set to keep my hand in! Sorry if I missed it Nige, What are you welding carbon/stainless/alli? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CwazyWabbit Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 So right on the touch-downs. You will touch down, it drove me mad when I was starting!! And as you say, I spent the majority of the first two weeks sharpening the tungstens Wish I had my own set to keep my hand in! Sorry if I missed it Nige, What are you welding carbon/stainless/alli? He's passed level 1 which was steel and now he is happily failing level 2 which is Aluminium and stainless .... I think... Looking forward to the pics so I can see how bad my tig is Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRecklessEngineer Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Funnily enough I found TIG much easier than I expected. Largely I think due to a misspent youth with soldering irons doing fiddly stuff. It really helped with the hand-eye thing and getting left and right hands co-ordinated. I can't say I'm great, but I can manage butt, lap and T joints quite successfully (when flat anyway!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landroversforever Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 He's passed level 1 which was steel and now he is happily failing level 2 which is Aluminium and stainless .... I think... Looking forward to the pics so I can see how bad my tig is Interesting, as I'm sure I was told that stainless is the easiest to TIG? I picked it up quite quickly, Certainly having done some oxy/acet welding and knowing the basics of how it works before having a go all really helped Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CwazyWabbit Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Interesting, as I'm sure I was told that stainless is the easiest to TIG? I picked it up quite quickly, Certainly having done some oxy/acet welding and knowing the basics of how it works before having a go all really helped I think TIG is easier than Oxy/Acet ..... try Aluminium with Oxy/Acet if you want a challenge Ross Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lrfarmer Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 just got my self a 3 in 1 inverter welder, plasma cutter, tig. 50amp i've done mig, stick and gas welding, am looking for would to teaching myself to tig hoping i can learn good luck with the rest of your corse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yalan Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Sounds good. I may well follow you there as Crawley isn't too far & I need some tuition - especially with ally. Do you know when courses start again? Website seems to say Tues / Wednesdays 6pm-9:30? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted January 25, 2012 Author Share Posted January 25, 2012 Thanks ^^ ................ I'll be needing it ! OK For TIG Certification City & Guilds there are 3 levels + & then "Coding Exam" Level 1 All test pieces are 150mm x 50mm Various welds to perform and pass all are "On the flat bench" 1.Flat Butt Weld -2 bits of metal almost touching - gap thickness of metal 2.Lap Weld - 2 bits of metal overlapping and weled down where they overlap 3.V with V downwards - welding V from the inside 4.V with V upwards - welding the tips of the Vs from the outside 5.T - One piece flat on bench on at 90 degrees weld the gap 6.T V as above but cranked over so welding the angle non flat This is Level 1, Level one is available as an exam in 3 metals - Steel - Stainless - Aluminium You have to Pass Level 1 in whatever Metal to progress to Level 2 You can't Do Level 1 Stainless till you have Level 2 steel, you can't do level 1 Ali untill you have level 2 steel and stainless Before you think tlevel 1 might be easy, on most welds they are "Tested" Say the butt weld, you hand it in and the nice man places it in a flypress and it iis then whacked big time into a cup shape top see if there is any part of the weld that splits or shows up, basically the weld should "Stretch" within the bowl shape, so a pretty weld is not a pass it has to pass the Whack test , many peeps form a que, most walk away shacking there heads. The deformatiy test are doone on most joints even in level 1 Level 2 all test pieces are now 200mm x 50mm A world of pain (where I am at the moment) - similar to the above.......... but oh god so different ....... 1.Flat Butt Weld -2 bits of metal almost touching - gap thickness of metal but vertical and welded bottom to top 2.Lap Weld - 2 bits of metal overlapping and weled down where they overlap - as above 3.V with V downwards - welding V from the inside - as above 4.V with V upwards - welding the tips of the Vs from the outside - yup your right bottom to top 5.T - One piece flat on bench on at 90 degrees weld the gap - and again 6.T V as above but cranked over so welding the angle non flat and again This is Level 2, Level 2 is also available as an exam in 3 metals - Steel - Stainless - Aluminium Level 3 - the nutters level 1.Flat Butt Weld -2 bits of metal almost touching - gap thickness of metal - mounted so welded up side down 2.Lap Weld - 2 bits of metal overlapping and weled down where they overlap - Yup - upside down 3.V with V downwards - welding V from the inside as above bottom to top - as above 4.V with V upwards - welding the tips of the Vs from the outside - yep you guessed it upside down 5.T - at 90 degrees weld the gap - as above 6.piece of tube on flat plate 360 degree weld This is Level 3, again passes are individually passed in 3 metals - Steel - Stainless - Aluminium Then you can go "Coded" in each Metal - er non I want to be at the end of 20 weeks Passed in Levels 1&2 Steel - Stainless - Aliuminium As to if I get there god knows, but progress is good, I'll post up the tech info and some of my before and afters to give some idea of progress The last session I was at was where I was 'signed off' as a pass in all Levels for Level 1, and entered into Level 2................ The 1st weld test on level 2 is the lap weld (one bit over the other) and you weld the seam up starting from the bottom and moving upwards, its a nightmare. I found the rod was touching the tip as I moved the top in the torch up, and I just could not see the weld pool. I spent near enough 3 hours with tuition and practise before I got anythingeven close or near right. I can now "just about" weld a lap joint vertcially, my best effort is still a fail, but next week I think I wil crack it after up to 4+ hours more tuition /practise er then onto the next one ............... More (and pics) tommorow - thought I would clarify the route to 'pass' options and what you have to do, its a comprehensive and gruelling course, but already my welding has improved imensely on types / angles I would not have taken on. The learning curve is truly F vertcial and its very hard work, after 4 hours attendence you know you have done some work. Its not a 'fluffy' nice course = its up to the indiual to learn and work hard, but I am impressed so far but the fall outrate is high, peeps just don;t return when they find its tough The logic behind so much steel work is that the better your knowledge and control of the weld pool the better you will learn / faster learn on steel and ali. and that if you donot have sound solid robust technicque on steel up to and including Level 2, then ali will not be good. get a Level 2 pass and be proficiant in all steel welds at level 2 and then Ali is a load easier. Instructor reckoms I will be Level 2 for at least another 7 weeks yet. Retests then apparently are often done on level one welds and then compared, the result is the passes in Level 1 look awful compared to a passed Level 2 student doing a Level 1 test piece (if that makes sense) Nige PS Instructor is My age and surronded by "Innits". He often exits my bay laughing after instructing me and I have whilst doing it moved my baseball cap 180 degrees, and say either "well Sweet" "Sortid" or "Wickid M8" as he gets up to leave .............. Still fails me tho Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted January 25, 2012 Author Share Posted January 25, 2012 Ok An idea of 1 evening improvment Level 2 - Lap weld vertical bottom to top Couldn't get torch right, couldn't get rod right, couldn't see weld pool The horror of it all Not even my 1st attempt - prob effort 6 or 7 ............. Truly Hopeless, missing the join, pool not formed, rod and torch angles wrong - all in all dreadfull (not unusual on Level 2) Some tuition and practise 3+ hours later : Still messy wobbly and not very neat but getting there Have this cracked I hope next week.................................. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landroversforever Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Nige, how are you holding the torch? I started off holding it with the tip 'straight' and the button turned over to the 'left side' and using my thumb on it... the method I was most comfortable with then. After a could of weeks I went to doing how the welder who showed me the rope did and it was 1000x easier. It was having the button on the 'top' and using it with your index finger running along the 'top' of the torch. It made holding the torch a more delicate operation and therefore far more accurate and steady. Improved my control no end Orientations in ' ' as they obviously change with the angle torch-button and also what angle you're welding at! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve b Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Thats a dramatic improvement Nige , the HAZ lines are much more even and continuous keep us posted cheers Steveb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night Train Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Nice. Sometimes there is no other way then to be taught by someone who knows how to do it and how to teach it. It will be good reading about your progress and findings. I did a similar sort of course a decade or more ago. It was a pipe welding course using MMA, MIG, TIG and Gas and all out of position. Every weld that wasn't obviously carp was sectioned and etched so we could see the penetration, or lack of. After a year I passed all the methods and in all positions. Sod's law then made sure I did no welding for the next five years! My MMA and MIG are ok now but no further TIG or gas welding since then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted February 5, 2012 Author Share Posted February 5, 2012 Right I have had a number of PMs asking for more on this thread, so I will I have been asked to give more detail as to what TIG is what I have learnt, what has helped etc, which I will do, including some scans of the course work. One thing the instructor did say was that a Good TIG Glove make a vast difference and that equally one your not happy with can be the difference between being pleased with a job and hacked off with the results, also that many good welders have "Their" Gloves and won't don't use anything else His input was, Gloves need to be comfortable over everything else Nice snug fit, not too tight not too loose Gaunlets to protect wrists - a must Be able to "Feel" Tig Rod and work through hand Leather Only Thicker = More heat protection / But downside is less "Feel" So, went shopping and tried on gloves and others gloves and asked Ones I have used for years for MIG welding (They are a TIG Glove) is the Ultima Gold Nice thin qulaity leather, very comfortable, good "Feel" but christ on close TIG work you feel the heat from a MotorCycle accdient years ago my fingers have nerve damage so I don't often feel heat - did with these and its why I started the hunt ! 6/10 Next was the Predator, used by many at the course, very solid very well made THICK glove, for me too thick and also F HUGE, felt like I was TIG welding with a mattress on my hand Would suit big pawed individuals, kevelar lined so heat difference was amazing - nice glove but thickness didn't like 5/10 Another one at the course used a lot was the SWP Glove - cheap - and it showed Nice thin leather a bit like the ultima, but fingers were VVV short and they just didn't fit, heat Oooooooooooooow yeah so a horrible glove (for me) 2/10 Tried some others on, most didn't like, then I got these : ESAB TIG Pro Gloves VERY Soft leather tad thicker than the ultimas, will also stretch to fit hand, fingers good length "Feel" best and bloody good on keeping heat back as also has a very thin lining 1 side. Doesn't feel bulky, and as such I have bought 6 pairs Not to expensive either ESAB Part No is 0701415963, got mine off ebay Next week see how I get on with them, tried at home, well pleased, he is right, a good glove can help more than you 1st would think I will post up more basic TIG welding info,as asked - and course info later - hope this is of interest Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted February 5, 2012 Author Share Posted February 5, 2012 Right then some of the basics This is very much as I understand things, I am not and never will be a Professional Coded welder, just a enthuiastic Amateur, my target it to be able to weld all steels, stainless and ALI as well before I stop going. The courses are Levels 1 2 & 3, I will do only 1 & 2 as I really don't fancy learning to TIG ALI Upside down So, Level 1 - here are the course notes : er coming soon was 9MB !! - redo later Level 1 is where everybody starts, if you haven't done any gas welding, or TIG Before you'll be put on Gas welding to learn torch control, as when you (and you will) "Touch Down" the Tungsten (The expensive tips ) they then need to be reground, gas you just relight (You'll knock the light out) , so quicker to learn, however if you can gas weld do not think you can TIG, it just means you will be taken off gas and shoved onto a TIG Machine. Rather than try to explain all about what TIG is and why, have a lookie at this : http://www.mig-weldi...ig-tutorial.htm If it sounds as if its hard then the answer is yes it is !! More later Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProteuS Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 Really enjoying the write ups, I've toyed with the idea of doing a course myself as my TIG work seems to vary from OK to not a chance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yalan Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Following this thread I enrolled too. Picture attached of my 11 attempts at a butt joint. All fail. That is all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Landy-Novice Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 7 and 9 from the left don't look to bad too me? why they fail? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yalan Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 7 and 9 from the left don't look to bad too me? why they fail? Irregular / non-continuous penetration. 8 was best effort from that point of view but messed up finish and stop start in the middle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lrfarmer Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Irregular / non-continuous penetration. 8 was best effort from that point of view but messed up finish and stop start in the middle. 7and 8 look good other than the stop in the middle are you using a peddle tig or button on torch tig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minimog Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 did your instructor exsplain about the onion(as you weld to get correct penitration you have a little onion shape at the edge of the weld pool) also when welding ally are you using the same tungson as for stainless/steel as for ally or you swaping to a 2% zirconian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big len Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Keep up the good work ! What you'll find is once you crack one test piece you have 95% of the skills for all of them. I did this course (here in Belfast) for stainless steel and found that my all 5 (? few years back now) of my passing pieces were all made in 3 consecutive sessions ... I liked it so much I came back the Aluminium the year after and made all the test pieces in the first month ... plenty of spare evenings to make a barbecue out of a gas bottle after that ! Also, hello forums from a long time lurker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted February 12, 2012 Author Share Posted February 12, 2012 Well an update from mature studunt innit Last week saw slow progress, whilst Level one was quick n fast level 2 is a differing world ! On leve 1 a "Visual" Pass is all thats required, Level 2 = destruction testing Also Level 1 is all on the flat, Level 2 is all vertical, as is the learning curve Here are a couple of pics of efforts that failed Welded as shown from Bottom to top : I thought I had sort of improved, this is on the T section welding upright from bottom to top, I must had improved as it was the 1st time the instructor has said "Looks reasonable" all the others up to then (this evening AND the previous evening prev week) had been a "FAIL" and then a discussion as to what doing wrong and what to try to do better, on this one when he said "Not bad" - I thought I was on a winner - Nope He cut the 200mm length into 3 x and kept the centre, which was then cut across the weld to weak in and then "Deformed" on itself to expose the base root of the weld which he examined and said was a fial : The RHS is pass, the LHS of the exposed weld is a fail, as you can see from the black gaps, this is basiscally not 100% penetrated. Frankly I don't care, I have learnt so much and have moved forward in terms of TIG ability on all sorts of angles and things I wouldn't have done / or be able to do that I am sure in the remaining 16 weeks things will jump forward further ! Half term this week innit - so now further report for a while, I will scan the work docs up and post shortly Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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