Bits in my Transfer Box....Oh !£££

[tweetyduck]

Can anyone tell what this may be. I've had the lid off and everything looks fine that i can see. The parts are certainly brass or copper. They are quite shiny as you can see. The oil in the box was contaminated with finely chewed/ground flecks.

Bit more info.

End float on Intermediate seems OK, endfloat on input seems OK. Input is cross drilled.

The front output has some play and i'm going to change the front output shaft and flange when i can get one.

The front bearing was changed two weeks ago to see if the front endfloat was caused by that as I didn't have the parts to do the shaft at the same time.

Centre Diff was changed last year for a new one with new bush etc due to a bearing failiure. (previous thread on that)

I''ve changed to EP80/90 oil every time i do an Engine oil change (almost) and its been done about every month on this trip. I always use GL5. The box is not making any fully noises but i will have a better listen now as this has me worried. I haven't noticed any changes in the box since the last oil change.

[Eightpot]

Just some bits of chewed up shim aint it? I had the same moment of horror when I realised that my diff lock bulb wasn't working and I'd been driving on tarmac for about 4000 miles with the transfer locked

Dropped the oil out and similar copper/brass stuff fell out along with some slightly bigger chunks. Two oil changes and 20,000 miles later and everythings still fine and works as it did before. Not saying it will be all be fine, I'm no gearbox expert and hopefully one will be along shortly, but a year on and I'm yet to see any further problems develop so hopefully you'll be ok.

[ejparrott]

Once upon a time, I was told not to use GL5 spec EP90 where it came into contact with bronze, only GL4 was suitable. I must admit, I've been running GL5 in my series box now or quite some time, and not notice any effects. It may be that it no longer applies, but I just thought it might be relevant.

[mickeyw]

Bronze bits in the transfer box... bits of selector fork?

[Landrovernuts]

I cannot quite see from the photo, but it could be the centre diff planet gear thrust washers. They are copper from what I remember.

Toby

[RustyNissanPrairie]

front output shaft will have a bit of float on it due to its design-dont worry too much about it.

I'd go with thrust pad behind the planet gears on the centre diff. did the 'box ever feel excessively notchy when turning either front or rear flanges (with props off/before box was fitted) with difflock out but input gear held or main box in gear so you can 'feel' the centre diff turning?

If the worst comes to the worst-stick the difflock in and remove the front prop to get to next village etc.

[vulcan bomber]

I cannot quite see from the photo, but it could be the centre diff planet gear thrust washers. They are copper from what I remember.

Toby

Phosphor Bronze.... Copper is way tooo soft to be a bearing material.

And these thrust pads mensioned are the only bits in the transfer box that use fozzy bronze.

[tweetyduck]

this morning i took off both front and rear prop and have spun the box by hand and with engine running. The box seems normal.

If i put the trans in high normal and not locked and the main gear box in first both front and rear outputs run together with my normal 1/8th slack. There is no excessive noise or anything.

If i put the trans in diff lock and the main gear box in frist i cannot turn either front of rear outputs by hand apart from the normal 1/8th slack.

more to follow......doing this on mobile in someones garden so bare with me. Please list anything i should try. I'm lothed to open the box again as i just filled it last night and EP80/90 is difficult to get here at the seaside.

I just tried the engine running and in main gearbox first with the box in diff lock and both flanges are running together. Again nothing noisy or worrying.

As for the bits, i can think of a load of copper coloured parts in the box. The front output bush over the front output shaft (tis was taken off the other day). The diff bush that goes over the end. All the rods and stuff so it may be theres more than one thing thats this colour. Theres loads of this colour. Now the pieces are shiny so it may be just a particular part that is this colour or they are just new shavings

Any suggestions on what to try. Its 10:30am here and i can wait all day but i'd rather not....I must admit i don't know what a working box does when you spin stuff in all the different configurations.

[FridgeFreezer]

With difflock in the spider gears in the centre diff won't be moving so you wouldn't expect to see/hear/feel anything from them.

With the props off & box in neutral try rotating the prop flanges in opposite directions, that should be spinning the centre diff insides.

[tweetyduck]

Thanks all.

So i've tried everything and theres nothing to feel or hear. Does this make me even more worried....not sure. If its going to explode you can be sure it will do it as soon as we leave civilisation for Botswana or Namibia and even then it will be in the middle of nowhere.

The centre diff was brand new about 35,000 miles ago before the Morocco shakedown. Not sure who make them but it did come in a "blue box" IIRC as a genuine was more than a recon box.

[mmgemini]

I think you have two options.

Sell the Defender and buy a proper Cruzer. Double cab if possible. Those owners tell me that they do NOTHING to those cars and they run for ever. LOL

Go down to Keetmamshoop, Namibia, take the D608 road South to Johan Strause. He will fix it properly.Take care on the Namibian gravel roads. This one especially as you'll still be nosing down when the road goes up on the river crossings.

[Landrovernuts]

I thought copper was harder than phospher bronze?

Toby

[tweetyduck]

if its from yorkshire its harder for sure....

Father says gold is phosphor bronze and red hue is copper...this looks gold i think.

[Maverik]

Its not easy to see from your photo, but are the bits mangled flat plate or are there chunks in there?

Mav

[Eightpot]

All my shiny bits of metal fell out of the transfer box in South Africa. I drove it back through Namibia, Zambia, Malawi, Tanzania, Kenya and back to England, with a very heavy right foot (yeeeeeehaaaaa ) and it's still going strong.

Those slivers of cheese like metal are obviously sacrificial and of little use - put the lid back on and drink beer**.

**(disclaimer - my opinion is worthless and based upon no actual or factual knowledge of the workings of boxes of cogs and may end with extreme and expensive failure and tears)

[RustyNissanPrairie]

there is no copper in a transfer box (or anywhere in a landrover transmission) its phosphur bronze -which does contain copper and which is what the phosphoric acid in EP oils enbrittles although modern oils have 'blocked' levels of phosphoric which is why the GL4/GL5 thing isn't as important.

As for your tfer box- carry on, if it selects hi/lo and the difflock works then the fork selectors are okay, if the centre diff feels okay with the main box in gear /tfer in hi or low but not in difflock and both props off and the flanges turn okay in opposite directions to each other -then your okay. Fair enough summat has fallen out but the LT230 is a massive lump of crude engineering.

You can remove the front prop and run in difflock forever if the centre diff goes bang. You can even remove the front output shaft and stuff a rag in the front seal if needed.

[vulcan bomber]

I thought copper was harder than phospher bronze?

Toby

Copper bends..... Bronze doesnt.... there both equally carp for machining.

[tweetyduck]

@Maverik

Flat stuff not chunks.

Will check the diff again tomorrow. We've driven a fair way today and nothing has gone bang....so one more check and then i will rip it out when we have soemwhere warmer to work and to get parts.

This might be a question for Western....can you get all the bits for inside the centre diff ??? I don't want to buy another, again !

[ejparrott]

its phosphur bronze -which does contain copper and which is what the phosphoric acid in EP oils enbrittles although modern oils have 'blocked' levels of phosphoric which is why the GL4/GL5 thing isn't as important.

Thanks for answering that for me, i'll carry on with my GL5!

[tweetyduck]

I had the props off again the other day and wiggled turned and listened and nothing. It sounds fine.

I then drove up Sani Pass in South Africa and used low range most of the way with no diff lock. There were plenty of areas at the top on snow and ice where wheels were spinning and i resisted the use of the difflock to make sure the centre diff was getting used. Nothing rattled or broke except the top ring of my Bilstein rear shock decided to unscrew for some strange reason. A bit of epoxy and screwing back on and its fine.... So what to do now. Ignore it and drink beer and has been suggested by the renagade Eightpot or panic and get it rebuild as would be my normal choice. I think a beer is called for.......decide after i've drunk ten of them.

[specialbikejames]

You've kinda answered your own question. If you have given the truck a good work out on a mountain pass and nothing has gone wrong, just leave it be.

Maybe take advantage of the next proper workshop you come across to asess properly, but if it sounds and drives fine then why panic?

[Cat_J]

I had the props off again the other day and wiggled turned and listened and nothing. It sounds fine.

I then drove up Sani Pass in South Africa and used low range most of the way with no diff lock. There were plenty of areas at the top on snow and ice where wheels were spinning and i resisted the use of the difflock to make sure the centre diff was getting used. Nothing rattled or broke except the top ring of my Bilstein rear shock decided to unscrew for some strange reason. A bit of epoxy and screwing back on and its fine.... So what to do now. Ignore it and drink beer and has been suggested by the renagade Eightpot or panic and get it rebuild as would be my normal choice. I think a beer is called for.......decide after i've drunk ten of them.

In this case I suppose you could do both, and cure the panic with beer. Either way you'll probably be fine and might regret taking it apart if you did.

[kiwi_110]

Your centre diff can be rebuilt. You need this sort of stuff:

You've ground up one or more of the 4 cupped thrust washers (lower l/h in pic) so at least one of your 4 side gears, also pictured, is now running directly against the inside of the diff carrier, steel on steel. Less of an issue when your diff is locked because the side gears don't move then. When unlocked, they spin to transfer the difference between front and rear prop-shaft rpm.

You might also end up needing a new pair of cross-shafts which the side gears go on:

Some of the LT230 Gasket Kits come with the thrust washers in them and input/output shaft seals etc so you might get away with just a gasket kit if your side gears etc are not munted.

Happy travels, Ray.

[ashtrans]

I then drove up Sani Pass in South Africa and used low range most of the way with no diff lock. There were plenty of areas at the top on snow and ice where wheels were spinning and i resisted the use of the difflock to make sure the centre diff was getting used.

I would advise locking the centre diff whenever you are on a low traction surface, the centre diff can fail with very little wheel spin,

As mentioned, the debris is the domed planet gear washers, should be ok as long as you lock it before spinning

[tweetyduck]

Thanks all.

So i suppose i should leave well alone. I might get the spares as suggested if i can get them in the parts place off the shelf. Then if the dreaded happens i have possibly all the parts needed to rebuild the box on the roadside/campsite. Not like its the first time i've had it out this trip.

We're off to Botswana and then Namibia next some some remote places again but not a million miles from help in either. The main worry is the next stop is South America and theres a distinct lack of Land Rover parts places down there........i'd rather it goes here than there....or not at all.