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Really confused


Tom1809

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Hi guys, I've had my ms1 running for a little while now, well I mean it works as it starts. I am for the moment not running a pwm valve. So until it reaches temp it's rich, but the idle was lump and it was soothing the new exhuast up really quickly. So I thought I would try to fix it. I brought tuner studios and plug in the laptop, put it on auto tune. Went for a little trip round the close (private Road) it done it think updated the ecu and now it runs even worse. It struggles to start let alone idle, it pops and struggles to rev and plumes of back smoke poors out. So I went back to a restore point and the original map and it's still the same, I can post a screen shot of the two maps as comparable but I've done no data logging or anything as yet as its still not on the road, I al a complete novice to this and if I'm completly honest I don't know what I'm doing. If anyone is able to help its much aprechiated or even better don't mind giving beer tokens to anyone local to me who could help with it.

Tom

M

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cheers rob i will try and get it going tomorrow and take it for a run, fortunatly tunerstudios does that for me and saves the current tune before it re tunes.

i have this screen shot of the two ve tables, the current tune is what i started with, ie niges map he supplied. i dont know if the soot has killed my lambda sensor as the dial was hitting the red at idle and the soot build up in 10 minutes of running is really bad. i will have a play around and do some data logging and will try and take a video of it

tunerstudio1.png

cheers

tom

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Also on another question so I thought I would include it here, I have paid for the full version tuner studio's and mega log viewer. However tonight looking on DIY auto tune website and looking through there set up pages my version of tuner studios doesn't have any other tabs than settings and tuning. Where there's have basic set up etc etc. how do I get those tabs? I can't adjust the timing cause I can't see the setting and I do think that might have something to do with it so would like to have a play around with setting if I can.

Many thanks

Tom

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The cells changed are ones that are almost impossible to hit, like 500rpm 100 Kpa. Looks like something seriously wrong like map not connected, can't really tell without a log or at least a gauges screenshot. You need to check the basics before auto-tune will do anything useful.

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Ooo well the idle did seen a little low, especially after I calibrated the tps sensor, the map hose I took of the little pin on top of the plenum camber, I assumed that is where it had to go. I couldn't find any clear pictures of it place... I will get some logs and gauge shots for you today

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Eish! The vacuum takeoff for the dizzy? No not there!.

Block that off. It has no vacuum at idle. Did you get a kit from Nige? He will have supplied you with a tee to join it into the fuel pressure regulator pipe vacuum takeoff. In fact anywhere on the main plenum body is OK.

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ah that explains. i just assumed it was the place as lioke you said was a vacum take off for the dizzy. right yes i did get the kit from nige, just the instructions wasnt well simple enough for me wiring diagram was and i got that almost spot on. so ill go and do that this morning and see what it does.

thanks

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I was just about to suggest that.. i did EXACTLY the same as you yesterday and had exactly the same problems as you. Today i plumed it into the correct place.. and re-timed her and SO MUCH better.... now to get logging etc

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well today was sucssesful i got her running properly, yesterdays problems was only made worse a rh side bank spark plugs all died, which is rather strange considering they was all new and less than 30 minutes of running.

i can still not do anything in tuner studios as for timing, basic set up, i need to adjust the idle as its 1100 rpm instead of the 700/800 it should be. i cant use mega tune as my usb serial conector doesnt match what mega tune likes, and ive pain for tunerstudios now. i have included a screen shot so hopefully someone will know whats wrong.

tunerstudio2.png

cheers

for all the help

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V8 plugs can die quite quickly with fouling/very rich running, my RR did that on a new set, completely dead, swapped another set in and it roared into life and purred like a kitten.

No idea about tuner studio, but at the very basic level you won't be able to do anything if your USB-serial converter isn't playing ball. There are FTDI-chipped ones all over eBay for under a tenner (FTDI make the better usb-serial chips, look for them in the product photos/description, or don't buy it).

A few points from reading your posts:

- Richness is nothing to do with your idle valve, the fuel map sets the mixture based on load (MAP) and rpm's, added to by the air temperature sensor reading & the coolant sensor (short version, colder=more fuel).

- The idle valve just lets some extra air past the throttle plate, a bit like resting your foot on the pedal. Most V8 plenums have an idle adjuster screw on the top, you may need to back that down to get your base idle speed down (or your valve/plumbing may not be right).

- Yes you may well have sooted your lambda sensor up, heat the tip with a blowtorch till it glows red to burn the soot off (if you're feeling posh, you can connect a multimeter and measure the signal while you do it, this will confirm it's working and let you tune your blowtorch too ;) )

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I have the paid for version of tuner studio as I just didn't like megatune even though most do - guess i'm just different :)

If you have any specific software questions I will try help but am by no means a megasquirt expert. I have one of the USB to serial converts like trigger wheels sell.

The MAP I started with was Niges 3.9 and it was good enough to turn the key and start and run the engine so I thank him for that, it saved a lot of head scratching. However it was too rich for my engine, I tried the auto tune function with the narrow band and it went even richer. (maybe I have it configured wrong or maybe they just can't do it off a narrowband?) Due to this I bought a wideband and only put it in for tuning. It does have an output that I can connect to the MS but I just use the display to map it as I never got around to connecting it.

Other things I would check;

- Set the idle with the bypass screw on the plenum not on software

- Check your timing with a strobe matches what tuner studio tells you it should be, rather than turning the toothed wheel to correct it you can do it in the software. Mine was about 7 degrees out :blink:

I still haven't got around to fitting my extra air valve but mine will start and idle from cold, if a little slower than when warm.

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cheer fridge and cynic-al.

i am almost certain that its to rich, but i am thankful that what nige supplied worked cause i would of never gotten it correct. it seems i have got to the bottom of my tuner studio woes, it seems the firmware i have on my ecu is the basic b&g firmware. which is fuel only. so i need to update my firmware, i have found this update http://www.diyautotune.com/softwarelinks.htm here for ms1. i will try to upload it tomorrow and see what i can do, they also have a useful guide on how to set the timing like you said in the tuner studios software.

if anyone can point me in the direction of the firmware if the above is not correct would be much aprechiated.

thanks

tom

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to be honest the map i got from nige which i'm presuming isnt toooo far away from the one you might have isnt too bad at all. i thought the same as you to start with tooo rich. maybe in some area's it is but other no. every engine is different remember...

Once i put the pipe in the right place, retimmed the engine and started it (ran so much better and i had idle) i went for a auto tune drive. then logged it using mega tune, analyzed it burnt new map to ecu that made a big difference, then went for another drive using auto tune and its just getting better and better.

From only doing a couple of logs / autotunes, i feel a massive difference from efi system to megsquirt. the truck is a rocket. I thought it ran pretty well on efi but anything over 60 / 70 was extremely hard work and felt like i was joy riding her.... but since megasquirt and a couple of maps and trying to hit as many buckets as i can a couple of good long accelerations tonight the truck hit 100mph!!! :o i was shocked.. before people panic i live on the IOM (no speed limits outside built up areas)

the general pottering, the acceleration, the engine braking (auto) are so so superior to the old efi unit. like i say this is only on the second log and auto tune etc...

considering saturday i was in the exactly same position as Tom to this i think is pretty remarkable.

for me, learning all the other side of things too now, warm up enrichment,, cold start, PWA settings is now coming into the equation

I really suggest you get things up to date, timing is critical, use the map nige has given you. should run just ok, auto tune for around 20 minutes or longer driving every single style you can.... save that. then log it and analyse it... run megalog viewer and do the deeds on that and go again... you should see a massive improvement..

This is purely what i have done and i'm a beginner with MS...

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if anyone can point me in the direction of the firmware if the above is not correct would be much aprechiated.

Try this:

http://fuddymuckers.co.uk/files/ms/msns-extra_029V_RV8.s19

That's MS'n'S-Extra 029v with the correct coolant sensor curve in it for the Rover V8, it's the firmware Nige usually puts on as default if you buy an ECU built up, and it's the version most of us round here are running.

Initially, once you are up & running, sensor readings look sane, etc. then your first move is to tweak the REQ_FUEL value in the basic settings until it seems about right (a little rich at idle is normal/fine for the RV8), *then* go tuning. Autotune is OK for getting stuff in the ballpark initially with a narrowband sensor, but you *will* have to tune some bits by hand to get a nice idle, response when pulling away, engine braking on over-run, etc. and to make sure that the values auto-tune comes up with are safe for the engine. DO NOT go blatting round the place like a loon without checking the fuel map is safe at high loads/rpm's.

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thanks for the link fridge, how do i load it on to my ecu ? i can only view it as text file not like the other one where i could just open it and run the the installer and jump the boot terminals.etc

iomit i wish i had brough the ecu from nige fully assemebled i guess it would of saved all this hassel i have now of installing the wrong firmware, i hope i can get this up and running and tuned so i can take it to its mot on friday ready for the east of england show on sunday.

i have installed the firmware i gave in the first link and have it running on the stim kit. i have some screen shots of the values i ahve entered etc, i think the spark stuff is the basic stuff that was allready on the firmware, i dont want to run it on the car untill someone can confrim i got things correct or near enough to start it up and then set the timing, i assume the timming i set using the very bottom value entry on the spark settings page.

tunerstudios6.png

tunerstudios5.png

tunerstudios4.png

many thanks for your help so far

tom

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post-5566-0-49530300-1346769815_thumb.jpgWas you at idle with the above?? looks like the KPA is high if so. you have moved the pipe way from the old vacume advance correct and T'd into the fuel reg pip into the manifold or similar? and blocked up the old one? idle is usually around 50 kpa at around 500 / 1000 rpm. i take it at the minute its very rich?

this is what was in nige's settings

ms.jpg

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Your req'd fuel seems too low to me, and few other settings are a bit off-whack too.

Personally I would get the correct firmware on it (from Fridge above) and a copy of Nige's map, and load it on, it will get you anywhere on that map, it won't be ideal, but will get you there.

Make sure your MAP is working properly! REALLY important this.... as above, at idle it should be around 40-50, not 100 KPa as that is wide open throttle, which is probably why it is running rich.

I'm assuming this isn't turbocharged as well, in which case having a VE table going up to 150 is worthless, as you won't get about 100KPA without forced induction.

Get the set up right before you try and tune, there's quite a few things not quite right there, which will add up to a lot.

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Oh, and make sure whilst you have connected the MAP tube to the engine, it's leak free along the length, and of course pushed fully home into the ECU. If the reading doesn't change, it could be the MAP sensor has gone south.

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hi guys, the reason the map is so high is cause its running on the stim kit above, so as far as im aware i cant alter that. i have now moved the map pipe and T'd it in the correct place on the car.

i dont know how to install the firmware nige posted above, its not like the others as in it seems to just be a text document. i would love a copy of niges map so i have some where to start with but i dont have it, so if someone could either send me a copy, my email is tractor252@btinternet.com that would be awsome and i can get it running hopefully.

also how do i make the scale less on the side of the table ?

thanks

tom

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remember firstly to block the pwm both sides and try and set the idle with the idle screw. first.

remember to calabrate your throttle position (with engine off but ignition on)

timing again you want the above disconnected and set to 6 deg and up to running temp.

then put it all back together and i'd auto tune, then analyse using mega log viewer and try that new map.

Sounds and looks like your getting there, well aleast the basics. now we both need to learn alot more..

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cheers iomit and bowie, i have yet to block the pwm valve, i belive the stepper motor failed shut so ive left it there but will do it tomorrow, i do need to adjust the idle cause it is set out a little high at the moment but that is easy enough, the timing i put a light on it and to my amazment it flashed a 0 so was tdc, advanced it 6 degrees and it ran really well but is definatly to rich, cynical has sent me a link to couple of things so am going to try them and see how well it goes tomorrow.would like to see a better mpg figure. but it has stopped popping from excess fuel in the exhuast, i still need to remove the lambda sensor and burnt he soot off, its looking promising

thanks all for your help. i will post some logs and infor up as i go tuning

tom

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