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Tom1809

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you need to get the auto tuning / logging and analyzing.. like your man said your kpa still seems a little high should be around 50 at tick over.. but there again your idle was at 900+ so could account for it. before starting to auto tune etc you need to get up to temp i'm sure your lamba will be ok... (i could be wrong) no harm in removin cleaning it and putting it back in and then go logging etc.... you will notice a vast improvement even from 1 auto tune / log analyse.... :)

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Interesting.. my unbuilt kit also came with B&G resulting in me ****ing myself when I got no comms. At the time this was furiously denied. If you are running B&G you will have to bridge the boot jumper to load MSnS.

The tools to burn the firmware come with Megatune if you can still find it. I use 029y4a with a self modified temp lookup table although if anyone has the the source for the RV8 coolant table hat Nige used I would be grateful.

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Morning

Somone say my name me ears are burnin' :D

Sorry deep into me own engine problems at the mo :rofl:

OK

few things that may help

Firmware 029v and 029Y4 (latest) are so fractionally different not to worry about for what we are sing them for. a 029v MSQ .0

will load fine into a 029y4 firmwared ECU and vica versa, you may get a few warning messages these are often to do with the

water temp being F vs Cent etc, and can be changed once loaded anyway

I tend to use 029v or 029y4, either are fine, and work with my supplied MS (Maps)

On the MSQ point ALL maps I supply are rich and soft on spark.

This means when they start up for the 1st time you have a saftey margin, ie if your timing is out the engine will not run lean and

will not be over sparking, it is a means to get the engine running and then check the timing and air leaks etc etc, once running

I suugest a PM phone call or email, and I can explain how to back off the entire VE (Fuel) table to "Normal as I have upped the

VE by 8% accross the board to add a saftey margin.

Additionally spark, if you are out on your timing, too much spark can have drastically dmageing effoects on an engine very quickly,

hence why my MSQs supplied are normally "Safe" MSQs

Megatune is an essential item to have, and for a newbie simple to use, Tuner Studio is FAR more advanced and in many ways better,

but more difficult to get to grips with for basic fault finding and basic tuning I still use Megatune adn egalog viewer, THEN I move

to Tuner studio, and a few things I have learnt and devloped buy the full version worth absolutely every penny :)

Hope the above helps

Nige

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And on the Question of V8 Cooant sensor settings :

You'll need to download a version of easytherm

then look at the help section 1st - its really easy to use this wrong !

Once easytherm has set the S19 file parameters if will make the engine run better as the V* Coolant settings will be saved in the Firmware, check by looking at the engine temp before and after should read different !

When you use easytherm use the degress Centigrade buttons at the top

For the V8 Coolant sensor the settings are as follows :

2 Celsuis = 4000 Ohm

74 Celsuis = 362 Ohm

94 Celsuis = 212 ohm

And - for the Rover V8 MAT values whilst I am at it :)

-7 Cescius =13500 ohm

21 Celsuis =3400 ohm

38 Celsuis = 1800 ohm

Hope the above helps

Nige

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Don't know if i'm misunderstanding what your saying but your strobe is giving 0 advance and your megasquirt is telling you 6 degrees advance? If so surely you need to correct the software by 6 degrees to make the two match? Don't really want the engine running with no advance?

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Just to stick my oar in - I (respectfully :P) disagree with Bowie that your req fuel figure is too low. Mine is 15.6 as per the online calculator and it runs fine.

However if you are using niges map then keep his value of 20 otherwise things will be too lean with the ve values in his table. To use 15.5 you'd need to rescale the table. However that is all stuff you can do later if you feel the need once things are running.

For now just stick to the known good map and as the guys all say ensure all sensor readings etc are sensible. With Ms rubbish data in= rubbish running out...

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The download instructions are in the megamanual:

Bootloader Download Instructions - Hyperterm

Here are instructions for using Hyperterm.exe for updating the embedded software (all Windows installations has the Hyperterminal application - use a "find-file" function to search for "hypertrm.exe"):

  • For Version V1.01 boards, short out the bootloader resistor (R6) on the board, for Version 2.2 put on the Bootloader jumper pin, hook up a serial cable from the computer to the MS box, and fire up Hyperterminal (Hypertrm.exe). You do not use the PC Configurator to perform the firmware upload - this is done with the terminal program Hyperterm (or similar, see below), and do not have PC Configurator, TunerStudio, MegaTune, or any other serial data application running on your PC. At this point, leave the MS unit unpowered.
  • You will see a Hyperterminal screen when you execute - type in any name you want in the box, and make sure the Red telephone with the little yellow telephone next to it is highlighted.
  • Now, a new screen appears. On the "Connect Using" selection, select either COM1 or COM2, depending on your serial connection.
  • New screen with comm port settings pops up. Select 9600 baud, 8 data bits, no parity, 1 stop bit, and set flow control to "None" - this is very important.
  • Hyperterm terminal screen is now up. Apply power to the MS board, then hit . You should see the "Boot>" prompt appear in the terminal screen. Type "H" and you will be shown the options available in bootloader mode.
  • Hit "W" for "Wipe" - this erases the entire flash array (except the section running the bootloader).
  • Hit "P" for "Program," which will respond with the text "wait ...". Then under the "Transfer" menu, select "Send Text File..." (do not use the "Send file" mode - you are sending a text file). Set "Files of type" to "All files" and select the .s19 file containing your assembled code (megasquirt.s19).
  • You will see no activity on the screen for about 40 seconds. Then the prompt will come back, which means the operation is finished. Turn off power to MS and shut down Hyperterminal. Remove the jumper, and you are ready to go.

For those interested in such things, the firmware file is in Motorola's S19 file format.

About REQ_FUEL etc., remember that the whole thing is just maths, if your req-fuel is bigger the fuel map values might be lower across the board, which adds up the the same injector pulsewidth at the end of things, so there is not one "right answer".

Using the link I posted means you do not have to do Easytherm etc., although it assumes you're using the GM/Renault/AT1010 air temperature sensor as the rover V8 IAT is in the airflow meter, which you don't need.

For AncientGeek - The Rover V8 coolant sensor table is here:

http://fuddymuckers....thermfactor.inc

Cynic-Al: The gauges on MegaTune / TunerStudio will often show an offset value for advance which either include or exclude the "trim" value (how many degrees off perfect position your VR sensor is), if you look in the documentation you can configure MegaTune (and probably TS) to do the maths for you automatically.

spark_settings.png

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Well not really disagreeing, but nitpicking ;) It's too low to run Nige's maps without rescaling :)

20 is kind of standard with the RV8, not just on here, despite what injector flow characteristics calculate it to, so stick with that :)

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ARGHHH my head hurts.

This is the part of MS that un nerves me.. so many options so many varibles and so many opinions. just wish a real auto tune would do it all for you but that is too easy i guess. I only really wanted to make my V8 waterproof (to a point) and run better. Trying to learn all this is head damaging LOL..

So my understanding nige's map is a great starting point can we all agree on something?

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Yes, My Map(s) (MSQs) are engine specific, and will start and run a V8 "Quite Well"

To improve things needing to be checked are :

NO Airleaks

Tick Over / PWM set correctly

Ignition timing has to be correct and then if wrong "Trimmed" to be spot on in the megatune software

THEN, and ONLY THEN should you atempt to tune the engine

When you tune the engine MLV and Megatune or Tuner Studio both do well, to start with and the simplier

route use MT and MLV easier to grasp the basics, you can get a really good tune using this vs Tuner Studio,

tuner studio is more advanced, better in many many ways, but can be a bit daunting at 1st

If any of the above to "Checks" are wrong, then tuning will make it worse / run like a dog, the likelyhood is it will

tune weaker, and if you timing is over advanced and then you tune is weaker thats dangerous combo too much

spark and too little fuel is to be avioded - hence why I set my safe maps, soft on spark and ribher a tad on fuelling

to give a safety margin whilst you get it running and check and double check the very basiscs,

Then a very good read of my tuning guide will help clear the mists

Its sort of like polishing metal, you get a basic polish and it will polish tin, metal, ali, brass etc, but if you have the wrong

basics irrelevent which software you use - ie you can't polish a turd

Nige

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iomlt - The problem is there is lots that *can* be fiddled with, you don't *need* to fiddle with it, and if you get an ECU from Nige (or just use the same firmware & default settings) it will start & run and then you probably can get away with just auto-tuning and a few minor tweaks.

A big problem is that people do MS installs as part of an engine swap, or conversion to EFI, so the thing has *never* run in the car, and then they go off round the loop of twiddling with all the settings to make it work (I remember one forumer who spent quite some time cursing his non-running V8 before remembering he hadn't removed the diesel from the fuel tank during the conversion process...).

This is also why I counsel people against MS-II and direct coil drive, it gives loads *more* things you can interefere with & adjust.

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ffs me and technolgie dont go together, 3rd attempt at writing this.

The timing i messed up on yesterday, i have borrowed a snapon timing light and its much complicated than anything else ive seen used but now ive got to grips with it, its very useful bit of kit.

what i have done so far

  1. - loaded the firmware that fridge provided in the link, which as far as im aware already has the correct settings for the coolant sensor
  2. - loaded nigels 3.9 - 4.0 map
  3. - checked edis 8 wiring and ecu wiring again
  4. set the idle to 700rpm on the plenum chamber
  5. checked for air leaks tho

The problem i have now is the timing, according to the strobe i am around 14 degrees before top dead center. i thought with edis it should be 10 degrees before if i have managed to get it into limp mode. i have tried dialing up the trim setting but it makes no difference to the timing, i dont know what im doing wrong,

the problem with mega squirt is i understand the concept, i under stand the principle of the fueling and that but i dont have the experince, im on also on a very tight budget as im now in the limbo of going self employed, i am under pressure to get done as i no longer have any other vehicle and the loss of the job took that and ive been stuck at home for 3 weeks, and im making mistakes.

nige if i can phone you friday that would be great, tomorrow i have a little work so i am unavailble.

if anyone can help its much aprechiated

tom

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Righty ho, you're nearly there I think.

The EDIS unit is quite dumb, its only point of reference is the missing tooth, it then waits a given number of degrees (or teeth) before firing the coil. That's why you have to align the trigger wheel to suit how Mr Ford fitted HIS trigger wheels.

In limp-mode the EDIS will set the timing to 10deg BTDC relative to where the missing tooth is on the trigger wheel, obviously Ford can get this bob-on every time at the factory because they machine the teeth into the flywheel or whatever, but when you're bolting a trigger wheel on by hand you're going to be a bit out, so if you have it in limp mode this will tell you how far out you are from 10deg BTDC. You can move your VR sensor, rotate the trigger wheel, or for small values (and I think you're close enough) just use the "trim" in MegaTune.

In limp-mode the MS is NOT talking to the EDIS, so the trim value will do nothing.

Once you reconnect the EDIS SAW line to the MS, the MS then tells the EDIS what angle to run at relative to where the missing tooth is on the trigger wheel - it does this by taking your desired advance, adding or subtracting the trim value, then passing that on to the EDIS.

If you're really interested - how EDIS works: http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/EDIS.htm

(This explains why you can't have massive trim values or you'll run out of advance)

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cheers fridge, so reality is that i have just got to adjust the trigger wheel and vr sensor to get it as close as possible, then use the trim, otherwise no matter what i put in the trim it wont be able to correct it cause it is just that little bit to much, so is it worth me disconecting the saw cable and running it in limp mode so i get it to 10 bftdc then trim from there on to get the 6 aftdc advance?

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To be honest, as long as you're within about 10deg it doesn't matter too much, EDIS's advance limit is over 50degrees from memory so you won't be banging up against it with a Rover V8. Here's my config screen:

spark_settings.png

Here's what that looks like fitted to the car:

Trigger_wheel_setup.jpg

Another view:

trigger_v.jpg

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ah i see a small problem in what i had was the cranking advance was -10 instead of 10, now changed that, going to have a little tinker with the trigger wheel and line the pully up at tdc and mark it like you have yours and then mark the vr position on it too. that way i can get it pretty much lined up,

cheers fridge for your help tonight

tom

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Ok I've spent 2 hours on it this morning and I have not had any success in correcting it. Here is what I've done.

Made sure I have the engine at tdc on the compression stroke on cylinder 1

Made sure pully lines up with the timing case mark for tdc

Mark on pully the vr sensor positio

Take trigger wheel off and re adjust so 5th tooth lines up with the vr sensor mark

Re fit to to engine

Fired it up with the saw still connected, had changed the cranking advance angle to + 10 and the trim to 0. The fixed was at -10 already.

Attached strobe and have a reading of around 12 before tdc. Tried to trim it to get it to 10 before top dead center as according to the strobe it needed to be + 9. No difference at all, disconnected the saw to make sure it's not the ecu to tell it to be out and it's the same.

I've pulled the ecu out of its case, I've checked that I've got the correct circuits installed and the jumpers correct and that there is no dry joints. I've flashed the firmware. Reloaded it, reloaded Nigel's map. The car runs and I can drive it around my close but I havnt booted it. I have read every manual I could find to make sure in operating the strobe correctly, setting the timing in the engine, the mega manual, the links on edis. And I'm now at the end of my tether with it. I daren't take it for its mot on Saturday for the simple fact is I don't want some kid in a garage thrashing it around things going wrong as a result.

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I'm not really sure what you're looking for now - you've adjusted the wheel etc. and now, in fixed mode or with SAW disconnected (10deg BTDC) you get 12deg BTDC. All that means is your wheel/VR is 2 deg out, which is perfectly fine (and closer than many). Now you need to reconnect the SAW line and, with the ECU set to fixed timing mode, set the trim angle until the strobe indication matches the fixed value. At that point, you will have calibrated it so that when you dial in X degress advance in your table, you will get X degrees advance as seen by timing light.

Remember when "fixed" is at -10 it means "use the ignition map"

Or am I misunderstanding what you're seeing / expecting?

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So your seeing 10 degrees all the time regardless of what trim you set?

Does your loom have the little pull out 'get you home' plug? If so is it in? I think pulling this cuts the line and sets a static 10degree advance. Or has this already been covered :wacko:

Do you have an oscilloscope or similar you can put on to check the signal is there and getting to the edis?

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I think there's some confusion here. With the SAW connected, MS will be taking the advance figure from the spark table and using the 'trim' value to adjust it to correct for any misadjustment in the VR sensor. The cranking figure is only used whilst cranking - not when running. As FF has said, the -10 figure means that MS will use the spark table, and not a fixed figure for cranking.

So to with the engine running, and the SAW line connected - have a look in the spark table for the position currently in use. It's normally about 8 degrees BTDC. Check the actual timing with the strobe and use the trim value to make the actual timing match what MS thinks the timing value should be.

With the SAW line disconnected, the EDIS unit will default to 10 BTDC. The only way to adjust this is by moving the VR sensor. As long as it's not out by much, don't worry.

So if you're adjusting the trim with the SAW line connected and nothing's happening, first try revving the engine a little while watching the timing with the strobe. Check the timing moves.

If it doesn't move - then EDIS is in limp mode and there's a comms fault between EDIS and MS. If it moves, then there's a setting in MS somewhere that isn't quite right. Post up a screen shot of your trim setting, and of the spark table with your engine running.

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Ok so I think that I might be barking up the wrong tree here, the ms unit is using the spark table as its at -10. So theoretically speaking if I set that to say - 6 and then check it with the Strobe I can then adjust the trim to make sure it reads what I put in.

I will grab a screen shot of all my settings etc soon

Thanks

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It'll only be at -6 during cranking. As soon as the engine is running (over 300 rpm I think is the default setting), it'll be using the spark table and not the cranking settings.

To get the timing figure figure for when the engine is running, you'll have to check the spark table, or reconfigure one of the gauges to read the current spark angle. As I've said before, it'll be about 8 BTDC - if your strobe disagrees with this value then play with the trim until MS and your strobe agree.

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