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Really confused


Tom1809

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right , im even more confused at what im actually looking for.

here is my screen shots of my attempt tonight of just getting some timing figured out,

tunerstudios8.png

tunerstudios9.png

i have trimmed it by 2 degrees as that what it flashes on with the saw disconected. with the saw conected i still get the same 12 degrees, my timing dosnt actually change while i rev it other than the light flashes quicker. The dot on the map tho changes as per the rev range so according to that the ms unit and edis are talking.

the other question i have is what am i supposed to have the settings on in this menu?

tunerstudios10.png

im so confused now.

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First off, the fact the ignition map pointer moves does NOT mean the MS is talking to the EDIS. It's a very common mistake to attribute intelligence to these little black boxes, but they are quite "dumb" (simple);

The PIP signal is made by the EDIS when it sees some teeth running past the VR sensor, this tells the MS that the engine is going round and it should fire some injectors and stuff - so you will see RPM and the dot will move round the fuel and ignition maps.

The SAW is generated by the MS, and is just a pulse - the length of it tells the EDIS how far to advance the timing. If the SAW is disconnected then the EDIS will not be getting timing signals from the MS and it will remain in limp-mode.

They are not doing any "talking", if one isn't there the other doesn't "know", it just does whatever it usually does based on the signals it gets (or doesn't get).

So, first things first: check your SAW connection.

Second things before we make too many assumptions: how did you wire up the EDIS modifications inside the ECU? The settings you've posted look correct *if* you have taken the SAW signal from the -ve leg of D14 (the LED nearest the DB9 connector) or the bottom of Q6 (same thing).

This shows (among other mods) the SAW output wiring I use & that Nige's stuff uses:

v3components_mods.png

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ok its simple enough to test the edis is getting a saw pulse by putting a multimeter on the -leg of the led and reading the voltage, i will double check that i have got it wired up correct for the saw, but this is what i followed and i used the hall circuit but i also did install the vr circuit aswell

  • DB37 pin #36 to the SAW pin (#3) on the ignition module
  • DB37 pin #24 to the PIP pin (#1) on the ignition module
  • On the V3.0 main board:
    • use the 'Hall sensor circuit' (step #50.a in the assembly guide) - jumper D1 and D2,
    • jumper OPTOIN to TACHSELECT on the bottom side of the PCB, near the DB37 connector, opposite the heat sink,
    • jumper TSEL to OPTOOUT on the bottom side of the PCB, near the center.

    [*]jumper JS10 to IGN (this uses the processor port for the SAW signal directly),

    [*]jumper XG1 to XG2 on the bottom side of the PCB, near the 40 pin socket,

thanks

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fridge, looking at your diagram it makes me think ive really ****ed up on making this ecu by following the mega manual and the hassel of it could of been saved by just buying nigels ecu ready built. live and learn i suppose. im going to spend tonight and do what you diagram shows, so i have a lot of components to uninstall and and things to jump or install components in a different place. wish me luck and ill post back tomorrow my results

thanks for your help

tom

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Yes it is, but bear in mind Fridge's version uses PCB traces to make the mods as minimalistic as possible. They're not always the most obvious links. There's also mods on there for the PWM valve and input circuit.

If your timing isn't moving when you rev the engine as shown by the strobe, then as Fridge has already stated, MS isn't talking to EDIS - i.e. your SAW line isn't working. Just having it jump around on the spark table doesn't mean the timing is actually changing - just that MS is trying to move it.

The other line to EDIS (PIP) is the RPM signal. This one is evidently working, or MS wouldn't register any RPM and wouldn't fire the injectors.

I'm a little concerned by this line:

jumper JS10 to IGN (this uses the processor port for the SAW signal directly),

I haven't seen this anywhere before, and I'm not sure if either the processor port will source/sink enough current to drive EDIS or even if it's tied off correctly.

Fridge will probably be along in a minute to throw some light on this - but I'd be looking here for the issue.

The mods specific to the SAW line on Fridge's diagram above are the link between Q6 and R42, and onwards to the IGN connection.

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ok, so if i take the jumper of js10 and do what fridge has done from q6 then i shouldnt need to do anything else? ** i assume ill have to remove r 42 from its current location **

i followed the mega manual for the v.30 board, it also is for ms2, it has this link to this page http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/EDIS.htm and if you scroll down it shows that what i posted above

cheers

tom

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Yup, this'll be your problem.

JS10 isn't driven on MS1. Your instructions from the MS2 manual are for MS2 only. The mods for EDIS on MS1 are here: http://msextra.com/doc/ms1extra/MS_Extra_Ignition_Hardware_Manual.htm#edis

If you do the mods as Fridge has done above it should work.

Fridge has used R42 in the mods for EDIS as R42 isn't used when he builds a board - and is a close enough value to be used. If you've fitted R42 in the normal position, don't bother removing it, just grab another resistor somewhere between 750R and 1k. You'll probably find one of a suitable value left over from your build. If you haven't got one, PM me your address and I'll stuff one in the post.

Then just make the links (come off D14 if it's easier) to the IGN pad.

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guys i very much aprechiate your paitenace and your help. i think its time to upgrade to a supporter now once i get my first job to give something back. i hope if anyone else has made the mistakes ive made they stumble accross this thread, so tomorrow i should plug it back into the car, then connect the strobe and trim it till it matches :)

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My mods look neater on the board but if you got the crayons out and traced it through the circuit diagrams it would look a mess!

I really dislike the idea of connecting the CPU pin directly to anything in the outside world, I know some people do it (car manufacturers saving money included) but it's really not nice.

Be very careful about what you're modifying where, if you follow the MS2 instructions you can blow your CPU up as the MS2 board gets 12v up one of the pins! Some of my mods rely on the surrounding parts not being fitted so, again, you'd have to be careful. Aside from that, there's no need to pull the VR circuit off, I just don't fit it because it's not used for EDIS. What you've done for the SAW output is fine, and we know the PIP side is working as the MS is getting RPM's.

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thanks guys, im not planning on modifying it anymore, i just wish i stumbled upon your diagram sooner, well the next one if i even build one again i now know. i have tried it on the car this morning, it works, just a clarification tho, the spark table is the before top dead center or after? i have dialed the trim down by -2 and i get 9 on the spark table and im just about that on the pully but before top dead center as i rev the engine the timing changes and matches the spark table but its all before tope dead center, i thought it was supposed to advance it ie go forwards?

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What you're observing is correct.

Engines always spark BTDC - as the fuel/air mix burns the pressure in the cylinder increases. The idea is to ensure that the maximum pressure is when the piston is at TDC. So as your engine runs faster, you need to ignite the fuel/air earlier - hence an advance in timing, or moving the spark earlier in the engine's cycle.

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Well she passed the mot, completed a 120mile round trip, couldn't do much tuning as the ecu kept going of line, but I think that's due to the serial to USB lead. Engine developed a oil leak, tensioner or something has developed a squeal and just as I got home she died and now refuses to idle unless foot is slightly down on the accelerator. All fun and games

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  • 3 weeks later...

hi again guys, ive had it running for a while and everything has being going good except for it killing plugs, but after reading niges thread and going against his advice ive fitted some champion plugs and played with the start up enrichment and all has being hunky dory.

now i decided to get a pwm idle valve of a omega at scrap yard, it is a bosch valve and only 2 wires. simples connect 1 wire to +12ign and i had previously ran the wire from the ecu. while installing it i took the time to rebuild my ecu using a tip 122 thingy, i also had brought another in1004 diode that was used as d1, following fridges layout above all went well except for i have lost the mica peice i had for q16 and i forgot to fit it as i hadnt ordered a mica sheet. what damage could i have done? i do need to get a piece tho still. the other issue i had is that when i first tested it on the stim all outputs worked except for rpm, i traced it using the diagram and schematics to the xg1 track to i think its js10 so i had to link those to make it work.

i had put it on the car and tested it all ran, i took the pwm valve out and set the idle and reinstalled it, expecting on start up for it to raise the rpm, it does cause it always open, so set up in tunerstudios for it to shut the valve off agaisnt the spring. it dosnt seem to work so i am confused. i thoought i would check to see what the megasquirt ecu is giving volts wise so i hooked a multimeter to 12 volts and the other end to the wire and i get a reading of around 2 volts. but its not varying, id expect at the coolant temperature increases it shutsthe valve off by raising the voltage so it should go to 12v. can anyone just confirm this or wouldnt mind explaining what i have done wrong?

cheers

tom

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First off, if your TIP122 has a metal tab STOP AND FIT THE INSULATOR. The metal tab is joined internally to one of the pins so if you just bolt it to the heat-sink you are short-circuiting it.

2nd point - the circuit is low-side switching, meaning that the MS does not "give" any volts out of the idle pin, it connects that pin to ground to activate the valve.

As for the correct settings to make the valve work, you'd have to wait for Nige or someone to come along as I don't run one.

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Thanks fridge and Nigel, setting are in tunerstudios now ready to give it a whirl and fridge I will be doing that tonight now I found the mica insulator, would it be worth installing a new tip122 as I would of short circuited it by sticking it on the stim kit?

Tom

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To be honest you would probably get away with it, unless you're powering your stim from a car battery there's not enough oomph in a 12v wall-wart supply to set fire to anything. I'd fit the insulator then try it on the stim with the settings in just "On/Off (B&G)" mode so you can see the LED switch as the CLT rises. With PWM you may not see the LED do much other than be on at medium brightness.

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Well I've just put the insulation on, switched the settings to b&g mode, and the warmup light comes on the ecu, the idl light on the stim comes on and off as I turn the coolant pot up and down .so I assume that it works, no signs of any burn marks or anything damaged so assume all is ok :) now to plug the idle valve in again and see what happens, am I right in thinking fridge that with your set up I don't need to put a diode on the 12 v side to Idle valve as it already has one going to s12 on the board

Thanks for the help, just need to learn to tune it now it should all be running :)

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