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Innovate fitted now what


mikec

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My thoughts on this are that you have a problem with your throttle potentiometer.

The column "TPSacc" jumps around all over the place (biggest jump from 100 to 500 at time 566.264 in the 2nd log) which is resulting in the pulse width nearly doubling from 1.5 to 2.6. Yet the throttle appears not to have moved. This plays havoc with the fuelling.

This could be caused by noise, either on the TPS sensor cables or on the TPS itself - they can become noise if they're old. Where is the TPS earthed to? Engine block or ECU? How old is it, and who built your ECU?

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My thoughts on this are that you have a problem with your throttle potentiometer.

The column "TPSacc" jumps around all over the place (biggest jump from 100 to 500 at time 566.264 in the 2nd log) which is resulting in the pulse width nearly doubling from 1.5 to 2.6. Yet the throttle appears not to have moved. This plays havoc with the fuelling.

This could be caused by noise, either on the TPS sensor cables or on the TPS itself - they can become noise if they're old. Where is the TPS earthed to? Engine block or ECU? How old is it, and who built your ECU?

Thanks for your help there James, very much appreciated.

Tps. Does it earth anywhere? The three wires just go back to connections on the relay board?

Don't know how old the tps, I may have a spare one I could try, I need to buy a connector to wire it in though.

Ecu is one of niges

Cheers mike

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Replace TPS, definitely, a source of a LOT of your problems.

TPS has +5V, ground and the middle wire takes off the reading, simple as that :) If it goes back to the relay board, I would think whoever designed that would have done the right thing :)

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It's difficult to say if it's a noisy sensor or noise in the cabling. Replacing the sensor is probably the easiest, and I think the most likely.

As a temporary 'fix' you could change the AE enrichment from TPS based to MAP based. It won't be as perky as it can be with TPS enrichment, but it'll be much better than it is now.

How many earth cables do you have going between the relay board and the ECU?

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It's difficult to say if it's a noisy sensor or noise in the cabling. Replacing the sensor is probably the easiest, and I think the most likely.

As a temporary 'fix' you could change the AE enrichment from TPS based to MAP based. It won't be as perky as it can be with TPS enrichment, but it'll be much better than it is now.

How many earth cables do you have going between the relay board and the ECU?

When I've messed with the settings before I noticed changing to map dot seem to make the flatspot a bit better.

All the earths go from the relay board, two or three. Also the lambda earths, can't remember what else. They all share an esrth point then a single earth to the battery.

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TPS affects acceleration enrichment - like the accel pump on a carb. The MS looks at how fast the TPS value changes (not the position of the TPS) so loose wires / spikes can really throw it. In the 109 it was quite sensitive to bumps due to foot bouncing on pedal, I went to MAPdot and calmed the settings down.

The readings MS uses are VOLTS PER SECOND - how much the TPS moves per second. If there's a loose wire it could be glitching from almost nothing 5v in effectively zero time, causing a HUGE burst of fuel to be added (maximum Accel enrichment).

As is always the case with any MS install, you *must* have a properly functioning vehicle before you worry about tuning, widebands, etc. Having dodgy sensors / wiring / plumbing (as you seem to have had at least one of each) is like trying to set the thermostat while your house is on fire.

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Just set one of the gauges on mt to tps, it seems to show an ok sweep from 0-100% when pressing the pedal, so presumably that's ok? Although after saying that the guage is jumping 0-1% and back again very quick, does that show/mean anything?

Ah sat in it with the radio on having a look at the laptop, and notice I'm getting interference when I switch the ignition. It's not always done this and the only thing I've done since is fit the wb. So disconnected the wb and the tps guage and radio are fine, not sure what's going on there, but the wb wiring follows a fairly thick wire to the dash, which feeds the radio.

So that probably explains why the tps was reading odd??

BUT the problems were all here before wb, so not sure that'll actually solve anything.

James, is it ok to send you another datalog, from before the wideband?

Cheers guys

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Main feed comes direct from battery via a megafuse, earths all go to battery too.

I've done a couple more logs, one on Niges original map, one on the last map I tuned to before I fitted the wb, and also one which is driving over speed humps to see if anything shows on the kangorooing side of things.

Emailed them to James, as I still haven't figured out how to upload them myself :(

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Same drill as before, rename extension to .csv/msl/txt etc.

This log still shows the same problem, and I think you are trying to change too many things at once. Problems like this have to be worked out in a methodical manner.

There are no noisy spikes when the engine isn't running, so it is either noise related or vibration related.

Flicking from 0-1 is indicative of the noise. What really shows it though is the TPSacc gauge - this should not bounce around.

Don't change anything else. Just change to MAP dot on the AE page and burn to the ECU. Then go for a drive.

datalog201305141729.pdf

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Same drill as before, rename extension to .csv/msl/txt etc.

This log still shows the same problem, and I think you are trying to change too many things at once. Problems like this have to be worked out in a methodical manner.

There are no noisy spikes when the engine isn't running, so it is either noise related or vibration related.

Flicking from 0-1 is indicative of the noise. What really shows it though is the TPSacc gauge - this should not bounce around.

Don't change anything else. Just change to MAP dot on the AE page and burn to the ECU. Then go for a drive.

I tried opening the datalog in excel, then saving as, then changing the ".***" at the end of the file name too ".txt" but it just came up on the forum page I couldn't upload this type of file.

I'm back on nb now and the flicking 0-1 has gone now.

Just having tea in a mo but ill go in a bit and try that.

Thanks again mike

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This looks a whole lot better.

I'm uncertain as to whether the 'TPS acc' column is still TPS based when in MAP dot mode and the MS just ignores it, or whether the data is coming from MAP dot and it just retains the TPS name.

Either way, the fuelling in this one is nice and smooth and much more consistent. There are a few spikes in TPSacc (-500? WTF?) How was it to drive?

Next step is to decide whether you want to remain in MAP dot (a little more laggy to sharp throttle movements, but then it's a Land Rover, not an F1 car. Many OEM fuel injection systems work this way) or move to TPS dot. If the latter, then we need to sort out the noise problem.

(Just for info, 'dot' in this context is lazy mathematician for the rate of change of a function or the differential as they would call it. They just write the name of the function and stick a dot on it to denote the rate of change. Likewise they do a dash for the integral of a function. Then there's double dots and dashes, but we're getting a little outside the scope of this thread

So MAP dot means 'rate of change of MAP'. Likewise, TPS dot means 'rate of change of TPS'.)

datalog201305141913.pdf

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This looks a whole lot better.

I'm uncertain as to whether the 'TPS acc' column is still TPS based when in MAP dot mode and the MS just ignores it, or whether the data is coming from MAP dot and it just retains the TPS name.

Either way, the fuelling in this one is nice and smooth and much more consistent. There are a few spikes in TPSacc (-500? WTF?) How was it to drive?

Next step is to decide whether you want to remain in MAP dot (a little more laggy to sharp throttle movements, but then it's a Land Rover, not an F1 car. Many OEM fuel injection systems work this way) or move to TPS dot. If the latter, then we need to sort out the noise problem.

(Just for info, 'dot' in this context is lazy mathematician for the rate of change of a function or the differential as they would call it. They just write the name of the function and stick a dot on it to denote the rate of change. Likewise they do a dash for the integral of a function. Then there's double dots and dashes, but we're getting a little outside the scope of this thread

So MAP dot means 'rate of change of MAP'. Likewise, TPS dot means 'rate of change of TPS'.)

It wasn't much different to drive still kangooring, still had the flatspot. It doesn't matter to me wether its map or tps, at the minute I just need it running half decent :) saying that the actual running of it, acceleration etc all seem good

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Everything in the last log you sent looks OK, so we're not dealing with bad electronics or sensors.

I'm getting a little outside my scope of expertise here - I can do the electronics and computer side with my eyes shut, but I'm not so experienced with the tuning.

But here's what (I think) I know:

Kangarooing, or surging is indicative of the timing being too far advanced.

If you're running one of Nige's standard maps, then this shouldn't be happening - if anything they're a little retarded to be safe. So we next need to look at how your trigger wheel is setup.

How did you get it setup?

Now we can upload MSQ/XLS etc, make sure you're in the full editor (Use Full Editor button) and at the bottom you can select a file and click attach. It'll upload, then click submit for the post.

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Kangarooing / surging / hesitating can also be a poor fuel map, I've had it on mine before when running rough maps, it can get quite bad in low-box especially with the drivetrain slack. Softening out some of the map so it's not sharply changing from rich under load to very lean under coast / lift-off, also checking that O2 correction isn't coming in in areas of the map when you're trickling along etc. and that overrun fuel cut isn't being too aggressive (turn it off if in doubt to prove the problem).

The problem with this kind of thing is that "too rich" behaves the same as "too lean".

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Ok, will get the laptop out and post up, the problems with it have always been there wether it was Niges original map or my most recent tuned map, though they have got a little better. Which I would suppose would indicate a problem elsewhere from the msq, or maybe not???

Regards the timing wheel and timing, ill check it all again, but when it was hunting it was suggested then the tw wasn't set up right, but I ended up checking it with the timing light and think it was more or less what it said on megatune at the time, about 10ish btdc at idle. The problem with the 3.9 serp setup is that you have to look at the timing pointer from an angle so its difficult to say exactly if the timing is exact.

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Kangarooing / surging / hesitating can also be a poor fuel map, I've had it on mine before when running rough maps, it can get quite bad in low-box especially with the drivetrain slack. Softening out some of the map so it's not sharply changing from rich under load to very lean under coast / lift-off, also checking that O2 correction isn't coming in in areas of the map when you're trickling along etc. and that overrun fuel cut isn't being too aggressive (turn it off if in doubt to prove the problem).

The problem with this kind of thing is that "too rich" behaves the same as "too lean".

That's exactly my concern, when it does it, the amount of slack in the box etc, sounds like somebody's trying to kango through the gearbox casing. Can't be doing it any good and I'm worried its gonna do it sometime and bust something.

Ill check the overun cutoff and turn it off, (can't remember where I'm up to with that one)

Cheers again guys

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also Mike please post up the LAST xls file datalog which GIVES you the MSQ your poting up

Then I can trwal through both

I have even wriiten some software to spot for errors I am so sad :D

Nige

Just putting some coal in the laptop now, ill try to find that Xmas file but I'm not sure which it is, ill have a look

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