Megasquirting my 5.6 v8

[dirtydiesel]

Well, after 12 years without the heartache and disappointment of a petrol engine in an offroader, I have taken the plunge.

The impetus for this silliness was a text message from my brother pronouncing he'd found the perfect thing for me, a Mercedes 560 SEL, the price was perfect (too perfect?) It ran OK, so I bought it by text message

This is what greeted me,

My bro was over the moon he'd finally stitched me up (I have spent a lifetime taking the tiddle out of his awful choice in cars)

It stunk, i itched like mad after sitting in the heap, But it ran perfectly (the V8 hook was sinking in deep) and sounded like 300hp should.

At about this point all sense had left me and i'd decided the 5.6 HAD to go in my gwagon,

Only one slight hitch the injection system is Bosch ke-jetronic and was nearly totally integrated in to the cars main loom , after consulting the oracle he pronounced that it "combined the mechanical complexity of carbs with the electronics of a betamax video recorder" fridge freezers observation was matched by what I found on the net.

So I thought i'd divorce the separate Mercedes ignition system from the car and use the distributor and a lpg gas carb for a nice simple system,

No such luck, more S class complication, the negative to the coil was controlled by a module that looked at; 2 crank sensors, 2 knock sensors, IAT sensor, 2 coolant temp sensors, intake vac and about a dozen other antique crusty looking sensors.

[dirtydiesel]

Which leads me to this sub-forum, I have done a huge amount of reading in here and elsewhere.

But most of your lots posts still read like your discussing washing machine instructions!!

I have an awful lot to learn before this thing fires up again, so bear with me!

This is where I am at now, nearly all the old stuff stripped off ready to start again.

http://s238.photobucket.com/user/Gmogger/media/DSC_0194_zpsaf495a13.jpg.html][/url]

http://s238.photobucket.com/user/Gmogger/media/DSC_0196_zpse077f2f4.jpg.html][/url]

[dirtydiesel]

I already have a Ms unit and wiring tail I traded off fridge freezer about 3 Years ago?

I have a few trigger wheels, some ford vr sensors, an edis8 module, and some coil packs

I have some fuel rail extrusion on the way as I have got to make my own fuel rails.

For injectors I have some BMW e36 m3 3.0 ones 8 of them will support 375hp, these hopefully will not restrict me!

I have yet to get (or find) a tps sensor, coolant and intake air temp sensors and a load of junior timer plugs.

First of my questions are,

Are there any known temp sensors that are m14x1.5, as I have a few old sensor holes I could use!

Where is the best place to get a quantity of junior timer plugs from?

And could anyone direct me to some good reading about the best idle control for our uses? I'd like mine to act as close as possible to anti-stall as I can.

[Soren Frimodt]

"beware of the darkside, tempting it is"

[Steve Hiatt]

Are there any known temp sensors that are m14x1.5, as I have a few old sensor holes I could use!

This is a bit vague but I'm 90% sure that Setrab used M14 x 1.5 on a fan stat fitting I had many years ago.

If my memory serves Volvo or Saab used that thread, probably a Swedish thing. Sorry not to be more specific but it was a while ago.

[Daan]

Ok, Dan, I cannot help with answers, but I have 3 more questions:

1. Have you now decided to keep the G-wagon?

2. Do you have to much time on your hands?

3. was the previous owner gay?

Daan

[steve200TDi]

I've found out what it reminds me of: Neapolitan ice cream

Good Luck!

Steve

[cosecon]

Where is the best place to get a quantity of junior timer plugs from?

After some searching a few months ago I found these:

http://www.simtekuk.co.uk/index.php/automotive_connectors/junior_power_timer_connectors/?k=:12:1630:

these where the best quality I found.

Unfortunately they have no Grey and no Blue in stock. If you order from them, do not forget to get the boots (sold separately but really strong and worth the money)

This is were I got the blue : http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BLUE-Fuel-injector-Cosworth-WTS-Sensor-with-boot-Bosch-EV1-2-pin-Mini-Timer-Plug-/121107629087?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item1c3293c41f

And you can get from same guy black ones, although I believe simtek is better quality.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/4-x-Fuel-injector-Sensor-plug-Lancia-Ducati-Golf-Fiat-BMW-Vauxhall-/121118560664?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item1c333a9198

[Bowie69]

Looking good Dan, there was me thinking you were a dedicated soot-producer

I was a touch confused by a coupe of points, had to re-check what KE-Jetronic was.. mech fuel injection -I'd forgotten this from my Audi days(!)

For the TPS, I would be looking to find a suitably sized throttle body that you can modify to fit the inlet manifold, this will have a TPS built in and MS should be able to work with just about any TPS, just a matter of calibrating it.

For drilling the manifold, you can get special drills that include the tapered step required by most injectors, can be a bit pricey ($100) or you can make one from a 5/8" drill bit, lathe and some patience... Trigger wheels sell injector bungs which you can weld into the manifold if you don't fancy making them: http://trigger-wheels.com/store/contents/en-uk/d51.html

Polevault have decent JPT Junior Timer connectors, with seals available separately down the bottom of this page: http://www.polevolt.co.uk/acatalog/Junior_Power_Timer_Connectors.html

Any of the Bosch two-wire PWM idle valve will work well with MS, get a LARGE one (as it's a big engine), Volvo are often good for this, otherwise I don't see why you can't run two, you may need to upgrade the transistor (TIP122?) to something more beefy, best to consult Fridge on this last one.

Rover V8 coolant sensor is M12x1.5, so that's no good for you... I guess welding in a bung wouldn't be too hard though? Can you not use the Merc one?

Think that's it from me at the mo

[Bowie69]

Have you got a pic of the inlet?

[FridgeFreezer]

Dan - I'll post you some nice waterproof junior timer plugs. How many do you need?

I'll come back to the rest later after coffee!

[dirtydiesel]

Have you got a pic of the inlet?

[FridgeFreezer]

Reckon you could add a few more moving parts to the throttle linkage?

[dirtyninety]

Dan, what happened to the front end?

[ex_mod_90]

We have used these JPT connectors on previous MS projects:

http://www.polevolt.co.uk/acatalog/Junior_Power_Timer_Connectors.html

Good quality.

Rich.

[dirtydiesel]

Reckon you could add a few more moving parts to the throttle linkage?

That's about half of what was originally there john, i'm going to keep whats left it has it has a lovely progressive action, 3/4 of the pedal travel does 1/4 of the butterfly, perfect for throttle control.

Dan, what happened to the front end?

I drove it into the front of my patrol , partly because I'm a knob but mostly because it had no brakes or power steering,

[dirtydiesel]

Ok, Dan, I cannot help with answers, but I have 3 more questions:

1. Have you now decided to keep the G-wagon?

2. Do you have to much time on your hands?

3. was the previous owner gay?

Daan

1)This engine has saved the gwagon, it will live again!

2)I don't waste a minute, life's too short.

3)maybe, it was dark all I remember was he was about 6'6" and had a strange (Dutch?) accent!

For the TPS, I would be looking to find a suitably sized throttle body that you can modify to fit the inlet manifold, this will have a TPS built in and MS should be able to work with just about any TPS, just a matter of calibrating it.

For drilling the manifold, you can get special drills that include the tapered step required by most injectors,

Any of the Bosch two-wire PWM idle valve will work well with MS, get a LARGE one (as it's a big engine), Volvo are often good for this, otherwise I don't see why you can't run two, you may need to upgrade the transistor (TIP122?) to something more beefy, best to consult Fridge on this last one.

Rover V8 coolant sensor is M12x1.5, so that's no good for you... I guess welding in a bung wouldn't be too hard though? Can you not use the Merc one?

The merc throttle body already has a tps but its just a wot switch, I'll adapt another standard tps onto the merc throttle spindle.

I don't need to drill the manifold the standard merc injector holes in the head are the right size for normal injectors.

What's the biggest Bosch 2 wire pwm available? And how quick can Ms react to loads to keep the engine alive?

I have found a BMW temp sensor

http://www.elcome.co.uk/smpe_ecat/ViewPart.asp?p=55474&i=4338&pt=24&cid=109975795

Dan - I'll post you some nice waterproof junior timer plugs. How many do you need?

I'll come back to the rest later after coffee!

? You tell me mate I'm going to keep everything on junior timers.

Does this tell you anything about the spec of the Ms unit?

[Soren Frimodt]

That's about half of what was originally there john, i'm going to keep whats left it has it has a lovely progressive action, 3/4 of the pedal travel does 1/4 of the butterfly, perfect for throttle control.

Hehe funny enough, I've done exactly the same when I swapped the 230E engine into my Mog. It had a whole forest full of weird rods and ends because it had been in front of an auto. I saved it all and just last weekend I used the last pieces for the throttle linkage on the V88"

[FridgeFreezer]

What's the biggest Bosch 2 wire pwm available? And how quick can Ms react to loads to keep the engine alive?

Dunno a part number but generally the bigger the engine the bigger the valve, I think Volvos are a popular place to find them although if memory serves they're on tonnes of stuff, Vauxhall Omegas, Saabs, BMW's... I got mine from eBay. Just look for the 2-pin JT connector.

MS can react in a millisecond, plenty quick enough. The limiting factor is the reaction time of the mechanism in the valve and how much air it can flow if it twangs wide open. With that engine you'd hope it would be quite hard to stall anyway - you could always stick a heavier flywheel on it. I remember the difference off-road on the 109 when I went from SD1 to Range Rover flywheel, made it much harder to stall.

Does this tell you anything about the spec of the Ms unit?

Everything except how many sugars were in the coffee when I built it

It's set up for EDIS, and has PWM idle valve control, as well as a fan control output on spare pin 1 which is active low (it grounds the pin when it wants the fan on).

For TPS the P38 ones are OK, they are a known quantity and have a proper 3-pin connector rather than frayed wires like the older ones.

[zoltan]

What is the mode of operation of the Merc idle air valve? Is it PWM? It must have one/something already.

[FridgeFreezer]

What is the mode of operation of the Merc idle air valve? Is it PWM? It must have one/something already.

Bimetallic strip much like the old flapper ones, works purely on heat rather than reacting to ECU control.

[Mr Noisy]

All i can add is "you're a legend" and " thanks for the transfer box, it is working well"

Cheers

[dirtydiesel]

Bimetallic strip much like the old flapper ones, works purely on heat rather than reacting to ECU control.

Actually it had a 2 wire iac fed into a casting that also had a 9th injector in it for cold start enrichment.

I really don't want to reuse any of the merc parts as some of them are no longer available and those that are available are seriously expensive.

I offered up a later rover v8 tps, the mounting screws fall in fresh air on the merc throttle body, I have however found. BMW 4.0 v8 tps that has the same centers for the mounting bolts.

Does the pwm valve have to be a 2 wire one? Every one I have to hand is 3 wire!

[Bowie69]

It's easier, as the three wire ones require extra circuitry, which you don't have.

[dirtydiesel]

I found this On msefi,

3 Wired Bosch Valves (0280 140 505)

The bosch valves can also be made to work via the FIdle output, these need the transistor mod as above and they need to be wired as the diagram below. The centre pin goes to +12V, one of the other 2 pins will hold the valve shut when its connected to ground (0V). This pin needs to go to earth via the resistor, the other pin goes to the FIdle output on the DB37 connector.

On a 3 wired valve there are effectively 2 windings that fight against each other, one opens the other closes it. So we put a resistor in line to ground with one winding, this shuts (or opens it depending on what winding you use) the valve, so its like having a spring holding it u way. The MS ECU then forces it either shut or open, it can do this as the resistor in the other winding limits how much it can force it one way.