De Ranged

kiwi series build

234 posts in this topic

Gidday

Working on a new project for myself (I do 4wd modifications as part of my work) Doing a bit of research for my latest personal toy a series 3 landy since you guys have been helpfull I thought I'd make the offer.....

As it sits its a series 3, 88" with an Nissan LD28 conversion not in that flash a condition body wise but chassis is mint

The idea was to build it into a trailer toy on the cheap cashing in on owe'd favors and cast off junk from builds I've done on other peoples toys, and to do it in stages so I can play with it as its being built

So far the plan is to drop in a 3.8 V6 from a holden commador along with the trans mate it up to either a divorced transfercase from the landy LT95 or one of a couple of old RRC 4 speeds... add a pto winch, a set of wider stronger axles, I happened to have a set of RRC 10 spline axles so thats what I'm using at the moment and doing some suspension and bar work, but I'm leaving my self open to whatever turns up either as junk or as trades/swops

so far i've patched the carp out of the bulkhead, bar'd up the front guards add'd sliders, boat sided the fuel tank, shaved and braced a rear rangy axle and I'm in the process of dual triangulated 4 link rear suspension with 1/4 elliptical springs with 15" shocks.... hopefully have it running for a trip on the 10-11 of Aug .... going to be interesting big travel on the rear and standard front lol Oh and one of the bits I've picked up off here will be tried out soon going to try out some of the RR hub bushes that were talked about as an option instead of Jony joints Thanks for the heads up DSCF2308.jpg

Here she is in all its glory as I got it

DSCF2429.jpg

The last pic I posted showing the Lower link chassis mounts and the spring mounts for the 1/4 elliptical

Cheers Reece

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Welcome to Lr4x4,

I'll be really interested to see the rest of your rear suspension, I've always liked the idea of quarter leaves.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm keen to see the V6 install. I've seen many Ford V6 2.8 engines in landy's and they all fitted with loads of space. So a 3.8 V6 would be sweet :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My suggestions for starters would be to stretch your wheelbase out to the max. Bevel up the bottom corners of the bull bar, LT230 transfercase to Toyota LandCruiser 80 series rear axle assembly, Patrol GQ or U front.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

LOL I'm a a kiwi (New Zealand)

the suspension will be tweek'd lol, I have a resemble understanding of suspension in long travel trucks, and being a toy for me instead of a client or a mate... I'm playing.... being a short to med wheel base stretching the rear back to 95" might move the front forward at a later date wait en see... anyway even with an extra 7" on extreme climbs the links try and walk under the truck causing it to rear up... my idea is this is casused by the short WB changing the CoG on a steep climb and Anti Squat that transfers weight to the links extending the suspension down so.... I'm setting my links up way different from the norm, I've got the Anti-squat % that drops as the suspension drops so this transfers the load to my springs instead, wait en see if I'm right

The links are a pile of old suspension bush rubbers from a common Hilux/Surf conversion I do where you fit longer leaf springs from early Ford Falcon cars and utes along with a pair of Nissan safari radius arm bushes lol I think I mentioned this is going to be done on the cheap, I've left enough room in the width of the link mounts to fit some homemade Jony Joints at a later date, after reading up about the Rangy suspension bushes I'm going to give them a try they are cheaper than I can get the materials for lol

Here's some pic's of the Rear axle

DSCF2409.jpgDSCF2408.jpg

Oh in the last shot you can see the upper links (with the shortened falcon bushes) and yes they are short its part of how I got the different AS %

Here is a couple of shots of the lower chassis links and the spring mount, the spring mount is the inboard platform, I designed it to tie into the inside rib of the lower mount due to the nasty leverage loads this style of suspension mounts have and the fact the chassis is only 2mm med tensile

DSCF2425.jpgDSCF2428.jpgDSCF2426.jpg

Oh and the simple way of working out a starting point for the springs

This is a standard landy rear pack that I stripped and cleaned up the white strips are UHMWPE plastic another daft idea of mine to improve the performance of the spring the plastic should remove the friction between each leaf lol again wait en see

DSCF2414.jpg

All I did was guess clamp it down and measure up travel till it took the weight... there's 100mm of travel there and its just taken the weight I'm guessing that with the fuel tank, wellside, cab, winch etc on it will be about spot on for my 150mm (6") of up travel from neutral on the spring, there will be another 75mm (3") of down travel on just the bottom leaf with the weight of the axle pulling it down and 150mm (6") of uptravel to bumpstop

The Commy V6 is a good small 4wd motor nice en torque'y and dosn't mind the rev limiter as far as space goes it looks to be a very nice fit I'll even have room to run a winch rope right down the passanger chassis rail past it, and they are common and better yet cheap lol .... the catch is the GM 700 trans, it has a very wide sump with a valve body right at the back corner so you can't do much with it... but I have found somebody online who has posted pics of the LT230 trans on the back of one and he used a rover solid drive shaft to fit down the side

Funny you should mention Patrol axles.... I may have done a deal for a set of them to go under this lol but till they are sitting in my shop I'll keep working on the Rangie stuff was going to peg the standard landy ring and pinion I've got an old rangy ARB that I cant' sell due to rust so thats going in the rear axle so I can use the fiddles (you might have noticed the extra brake posts on it ) and up front I have a couple of hilux slippery centers that are munted that I should be able to combine to make an LSD for front been told they fit I haven't gotten to that point in my research

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The V6 Dunny Door engine has proven itself not to be a good engine in Landies - it power/torque maps are all wrong and it ends up being a bit of a pig - same in a HiLux. I would go a Rover V8 - take your pick on size but whatever you use diffs/axles etc will need going over.

While it can be done the 88 is a bit short in the wheelbase for gearbox mods (most boxes are too long but a 101 LT95 with its shorter bell housing and similar LT77/R380 boxes with short bellhousings might be the go.

Also Cabstar 5 speed boxes go well in series landies (not sure about SWVB versions) and match up to series transfer cases - also the old 253 Holden V8 will fit up with a kit.

Join www.aulro.com - there are plenty of people on there who have done this type of mod.

Garry

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is that so lol I guess this is another case of us kiwi being able to do things better... bang for your buck this conversion especially in the hilux range is very hard to beat, but I bet I know why you guys didn't have a good run with them it'll be gearing, on the lux you need 4.75 diffs with 35"s

They arn't a v8 so you have to gear them to gain that torque

I'm an auto man, a properly geared auto is so much nicer to drive and alot easier on drivetrain

thanks for the heads up on your site I'll have a look round, don't know if I'd join being its for Aussy's I'd feel a bit cheeky

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Got the lower links sorted today, a little different from anything I've done before lol

DSCF2438.jpg

A little bit of luck I'll sort the top links tomorrow

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
What's the use of making the links like that? :blink:

LOL you should read what I posted earlier, this is experimental... playing around on the 4 link calculator I found with the lower link behind the axle this causes the Anti Squat % to drop on suspension extension.... If I am right this will stop or lessen the "hopping" short wheel base trucks get, it may even climb better

And it doesn't effect oversteer/understeer or rollcenter height... if anything due to the length of the lower links it has made these more stable... there is a down side and that is pinion angle due to the short upper and long lower links the diff does cycle the pinion down 4 degree's in the 9" of suspension drop that is why the diff head it tilted up so much, but with this being a trailer queen over fulling the oil should suffice

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I did read the previous posts (albeit quickly), but couldn't you change AS% by playing with link separation? This just seems to limit uptravel a lot, and introduce a weak point with such a large bend.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Your main method of adjusting AS% is moving your instant center (the imaginary lines made by extending your links till they intersect, this piont) the easyest way to Move this in increasing the AS% is the angle of the links to the ground and each other steeper angles higher the AS %

Sepperation doesn't effect AS% so long as it doesn't move the instant center

The links don't limit up travel I still have 6" up travel as for strength 2" square 1/4" wall, it an't bending in a hurry lol part of the reason for the high lift is the bushes I'm using are very soft and I erred on the side of caution, it will reduce when I get some balljoints

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sepperation doesn't effect AS% so long as it doesn't move the instant center

Unless he ment vertical seperation ;).

Curious, how did you bend the square tube?

Interesting setup, will be following to see what the result is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Vertical separation only effects it due to the fact your moving one side of a triangle up or down making the "imaginary triangle" that is the instant center longer or shorter, it is very simple if you know what your doing to separate links and setup the same AS %, or raise/lower it lol I'm guessing you guys have a copy of Triaged link calculators awsome tools unfortunately I find they skip people ahead without understanding the forces, sorry if I sound like a tosser about this lol its a bit of passion suspension and how it works.... its why I like 4wd's, there is no one right answer due to the varied nature of the sport and environment, you compair this to any other motorsport where there successful range is narrow because of rules and consistant environment

Also there isn't a freely available knowledge base on how it works, case in point there are no.... not even 1 book out there that covers decently how to setup long travel suspension and what the results will be if you change things..... this is why I'm doing this setup lol on paper the forces I see in play can be countered with this setup.... have I understood these forces right ? I don't really know lol

If there is anyone here who is keen to chat about this, I'd be happy to bounce ideas I posted this idea up on a couple of the boards that have people I respect when discussing suspension and none of them had an answer.... that wasn't poised as a question lol its hard to stick your neck out and say something definitive when its there from that date showing you got it wrong.... oh and yes there are some sites that are full of people who are happy to embarrass themselves, I just can't be bothered with that sifting through the carp

As for the sqaure tube lol I cheated 14 cuts, bend, "V" out and weld, you should have seen the end of the tube glowing by the time I finished lol I polished it cause I could, oh and I could see inside so I know I had plenty of penetration

To be honest I'll be at the top of the list of people waiting to see if it works..... if it doesn't I've designed the links so all I need to do is shorten lower link to the front of the axle and mount and everything is "standard" design

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know what you mean. Suspension is a bit of a passion for me as well. I've spent many countless hours on the 3 and 4link calculators. I like to think I have a pretty good understanding about it.

To see all the numbers and all on the screen and to try and anticipate what it will do is incredidibly interesting to do, even more so when after all doing the hard work you get to find out if it actually works as intended.

anyway even with an extra 7" on extreme climbs the links try and walk under the truck causing it to rear up.

Link length/angle compared to horizontal would be about as important as anti-squat for good climbing ability.

Why didn't you stretch the wheelbase a bit more and used a more traditional straight lower link? Upper link could be the same length as it is now, just a bit further rearward, perhaps in just a different spot to keep your antisquat number the same. That way you would have an arguably stronger lower link and the benefit of a bit more wheelbase..

What are you plans for the front end? Surely, as an suspension enthusiast, you know of the benefits of a balanced suspension ;).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm never going to claim I'm an expert on suspension, I've just read a lot about it. I was trying to get your design decisions, and I'm intrigued if it'll work.

The 4-link calculator is indeed a fun tool, and gives a pretty good idea about what affects what.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

De Ranged, as you mentioned the 4link calculator. Care to post up some screenshots? Would love to see what you've come up with :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The reason for only a 7" axle move is I want to keep the rear wellside and when this came up on my calculator (just with me playing around with what if's )

I like your comment about longer links and it plays to my theory about what causes a SWB to bounce and rear up.... the longer your links are the less angle change as they extend your suspension... so less your AS% climbs under extension and its more stable than one with short links

Ever play'd with CoG location and weight on the calculator the higher it is the easier and faster AS% ramps under extension...

Now WB we all know shorter the WB the easier it is to get AS but play with the latest version of the calc with the little ramp window and you will notice the same theme under extension

Now my theory (yet to find a book that has any referance to AS or any suspension geometry on a hill) is on a hill you are effectively shortening WB and raising CoG in relation to gravity.... now AS we all know is vertual weight transfer.... but did you know its transfer of forces to the links thats why when you see a drag car charge hard it pops up in the rear its because the forces of acceleration are pushing on the links this is why with a SWB on a steep climb the rear try's to walk under

Now we all know from experiance that AS on a lesser climb makes it alot easier so we want a certain amount and thats where you get all the web authorities with there figure lol most don't understand that spring rate and compression, rebound rates, HP etc all harden or soften this, but it still boils down to as much as you can get without bad effects.... what if it dropped AS% as the suspension extended

As for the front, its on the plans after the engine swop... but her first trip out the only balance will be the front axle I balance on lol

I hope that gives you an idea on my reasoning lol I'm not the best at explaining things most of my mates hate me explaining something because I blow right past there understanding, most of them now just tell me they just need to know me not what I'm doing or why lol

Arghh as for my calculator it is based off Triaged one but I've removed the pretty stuff and replaced it with graphs showing changes vs travel .... these graphs mean more to me, when I'm setting up a clients toy its more how little the change is vs individual scores... it makes for a much more stable feel when driving

So unless you've spent alot of time using the calc the graphs wont mean much lol I can post up my link geo if you'd like to put it into your calc's

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think we have the same understandings regarding link setup. I think your example of the dragster is not quite a good one. As far as I know they don't have suspension and the rear lifting up under hard acceleration is due to the tires bulging out heaps from centrifugal force.

Usually on a coil sprung rover people tend to spent a lot of attention trying the get as much articulation from the rear end as they possibly can. As it is easy to do and it looks 'cool' when the wheel is dangling 2 feet below the sidebar. Problem with this is massive rear steer and more annoyingly, the short lower links will be on an extreme angle. This will have a huge jacking effect, pushing the rear up making the problem even worse, increasing anti-squat that creates wheel hop and makes the truck feel very unstable.

Hence the importance of a balanced suspension, making the front actually do something helps reduce the amount of articulation needed from the rear to keep 4 wheels on the ground. That in turns leads to less extreme angles on the rear axle and that should help increase climbing ability..

I've been applying a bit of the 'science' involved with link suspensions to the leaf spring setup that's on my 109". Sprung over on very long relatively flat leaf springs. Works better than very curved shorter leaf springs in a sprung over situation.

It wans't at its max yet as the engine crane started to make funny groaning noises I didn't dare to go any higher. Leaf springs are quite cool, but a good link suspension is just plain better. Maybe one day I'll link it, untill then this works very very well. Augustus 11th I will take it out rock crawling for the first time with this suspension, curious to see how it does on the rocks.

2012-05-20101241.jpg

2012-05-20101227.jpg

I wouldn't mind having a look on your spreadsheet with the graphs, perhaps you can email it to me?

Are you going to link the front as well?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dragsters use suspension, a common type is a form of ladder bar suspension (very similar to a radius arm) because its easy to get very high AS% and yes you are right they do get lift from the tyres expanding you see the same thing in the southern states with there big block rock buggies, we are starting to see it here in 4wd trials its HP climbing I know the theroy behind it is to do with what you throw out the back (look into drag tractor traction) its just nuts to see it hold a buggy on a vertical wall or climbing up it lol

I'm a big fan of leaf springs for offroad, they are a progressive rate spring and cheap lol price up staged coilovers, I've done alot of trucks with them and your dead right the key is balance

I can't see under your truck but if you are running long flat springs I'd suggest a torque bar to stop axle wrap, I've seen it brake springs or in the case of cruiser front axles pinion flanges when under load in reverse (the axle wrap rotates the diff around enough to jam the bottom UJ and shear the pinion)

I have alot of time invested in my 4 link calculator, it does more than just show graphs and as I'm using it for commercial advantage its not something I'm willing to realese, I do have a 3 link calculator that all I've done is add in the graphs, that I've made public I wouldn't mind sending a copy of... can we do private messaging on here ? if so send me your email and I'll send it

Yep I will change the front suspension, I'm uncertain yet as to what I'll do ?? I have a set of Rangy radius arms that aren't selling so they may go in yet lol there is even the possibilty of a 4 link and hydro steering as this is a trailer queen (we can't do that legally on road here) it all depends on how much space after the commy install and what sort of swop/parts/favors come together lol about the only thing I'm firm'ish on is wanting to keep the leaf springs as a 1/4 elliptical

Right a wee update took me a bit of time to work out how I was going to do this due to the distance from the mounting pionts to the X member in the end I went with this due to the fact it would be stronger then angling back to the chassis rail

DSCF2442.jpg

Note the width of the bushes in the end of the links.... this is my major concern, the rubbers are cut down leaf spring bushes and are soft I think I'm going to get axle tramp from the movement but they only have to last one run I'll swop em for something better after

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was sure the title to this thread was "Aussie Series Build".

In my experience, what causes a swb, and to a lesser extent lwb to bounce and rear up on climbs is the shackle placement at the rear of the front springs. Most other brands of 4wd's place the shackles up front and this gives a 'leading arm' effect similar to radius arms, and whatever traction forces are available to the front axle in a given situation tends to pull the sprung mass of the front of the vehicle downwards. Shackles behind the front axle have the opposite effect that is compounded by the springs arch increasing to to rearwards weight transfer on gradients. Forward thrust from the front axle further increases the arch in the spring until it reaches the limit that the shackle can adjust to, and then it all rebounds causing axle hop. A tramp bar will reduce front axle tramp, but the 'trailing arm' effect is still there with the shackles behind the axle. IMO the biggest improvement to a leaf sprung LandRover suspension to give it mountain goat style climbing abilities is to concentrate on the front suspension.

Lately I have fallen in with a group of 40 series LandCruiser enthusiasts.Before I joined, some of them have been doing shackle reversals in the mistaken belief that the improved front suspension travel would improve their vehicles offroad performance.Suspension travel is useless without good axle location, and the difference in axle tramp and climbing ability of a standard 40 verses a shackle reversed 40 is very obvious once you put them in severe axle twisting steep terrain.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've never paid any attention to leaf sprung front ends on climbs I know the suzuki crowd can get good drop with front shackles but I've always shied away from it due to the loss of steering response having your drag link infront of the axle means you want your spring hanger there to limit movement

Why would moving the shackle back improve offroad performace it limits drop due to rotation of the diff pinion away from the transfercase

Here is a really good trick for the rear end of a leaf sprung truck that works but buggered if I'll state why... I have an explanation but I haven't tested it to prove it so I'm not inclined to say lol and calculating AS on leaf springs is a hassle

you mount a bar about the same length as your front half of the leaf spring from about the same height as the top of the diff pumpkin forward to a few inches above the front leaf mounts you want it mounted very well as it sees alot of load and mount it centrally so it doesn't effect articulation now this is the catch from rest dial in (push) preload about 3/4" for hilux leaves on a landy longer leaves need more.... now go try it lol you'll be amazed

the catch is it kills leaf spring bushes but it works

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Didn't know about the dragster suspension. I thought it was rigid.

I like leaf springs, they're simple, cheap and when setup right they work more than well enough for most people. Me included. Te only thing I don't like is replacing bushes, they don't last long on the front springs, shackle side.

I haven't got a torque bar, and haven't found the need for one yet.. Haven't seen noticable spring wrap yet on either front or rear axle. Using 10" long spring perches probably plays a big part in that.

No worries about your 4link calc, I understand. I would like to take you up on your offer on the 3link calc though, I'll PM you about that.

Regarding your future front end, don't use radius arms... they're an insult to your rear setup. I would link it.

Interesting top link orientation....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hows this for cool

DSCF2443.jpg


Thats about the mark with the 15" shocks

Heres why I had to narrow the leaf spring bushes

DSCF2444.jpg


I was a bit concerned it could have bound enough to stop travel but there is a wee bit more movement available

I do have one issue this is looking down the drivers link towards the fuel tank

DSCF2445.jpg


Even tho it looks like its touching in the photo there is some day light but only just... will play around with the spacers on the link eye to move it over a bit, if I ever get another tank for the other side I'll trim this one and seal both of them but for now spacers will work


With that done I mounted the spring I've already cleaned up (not looking forward to doing the other one)

DSCF2449.jpg

DSCF2448.jpg

DSCF2447.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just popped into my head..... how does it compensate for the leafspring getting longer and shorter with articulation? Or is the arch the axle makes more or less the same as the arch the leaf spring eye makes?

Looking cool! How are you going to orient your shocks?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now