cheap modifacations

[Chicken Drumstick]

yes, yes. v8's are very nice. very revvy. yes.

i think replacing the front exhaust section with a decat pipe can be considered a cheap mod, especially if you weigh in the cat at the scrappy. that and unplugging the egr (or removing the thing with a kit) should do a bit for performance. or so they tells me...

If you need the CAT to pass the MoT emissions test, I'd personally say it isn't a worth while mod to have to faff with it twice a year. The extra power you'll get will be minimal unless you building a whole system. And if you are, then a CAT won't actually be a limiting factor on the HP levels an RV8 produces.

[Chicken Drumstick]

I have always thought if you learn to drive your truck first as standard you will know exactly what you need to fit. I personally have never felt the need for a lift at all on either series or my old.disco. Others may do. Its all down to driving style too.

I think this depends what you want to do, the terrain and the vehicle you actually have.

Lets not forget a Series in stock guise can easily run 7.50's or 235/85R16's. Which is a fairly sizeable tyre. But think how many people really off road on a set of 205's? That smaller tyre and lower ground clearance is a hindrance. Therefore a Series truck is already fairly well lifted and can run a good tyre size.

A Disco in stock trim will be running smaller tyres like 205's, and while it's still a capable machine, it will generally get beached more easily and would work better off road with some 235/85's on. But in order to do this, you'll either need to trim the arches or give it a mild lift. And I can understand why some people don't want to trim the body work.

I'm certainly not against learning how to drive something first, but I don't think you need to always be completely stock just to prove a point. It'd be like going on a track day with brake pads not capable of handling 2 hot laps and tyres that'd fall apart 3/4 of the way round the track.

[ejparrott]

If you learn to drive it stock though, you can only get better. I see what you're saying though.

[Chicken Drumstick]

I do agree that learning is a good thing

I'm just not convinced you actually learn anything more in a stock vehicle always. Like the vid you posted with a truck on 37" tyres getting stuck. Surely they'd have only been worse off with a stock vehicle in the same situation.

And lets be honest, a stock E reg Ninety would have had no recovery points and would have been on road biased 205's from the factory.

[FridgeFreezer]

Chicken drumstick - I think you're missing the point. In a stock vehicle you are "worse off" so you have to really look, think, concentrate, pick the best line, etc.

I don't think recovery points count.

At something of an extreme - I've driven my portal-axled 109 round Seven Sisters, and also my bone-stock TD4 Freelander. Now, the FL won't go where the 109 goes, so you are "worse off". However, from a driving skill point of view, you could put any muppet in the 109 and they could point it at most stuff and it would just steamroller through it without thinking. You don't really need to worry about ground clearance, traction, momentum, picking lines, escape routes, damage, etc. etc., anything under 18 inches tall you just roll over. You could put it in 1st low and sit on the bonnet eating a mars bar for all the difference it makes in most situations.

In the freelander you have to concentrate like hell, look out for every rock, tree stump, pot hole, etc., judge the available grip, work out what happens if you don't make a climb or belly out half way along a track, try to keep the wheels out of the ruts, know how much momentum to carry (too much and you risk ploughing into something solid), watch out for approach/departure/breakover angles, and have a few tricks for getting out of places when you "fail to proceed", etc. etc.

So, you get stuck a lot sooner in the "worse" car, but that means you reach the limits much sooner, and the limits are where you learn the most. From there, you can upgrade to move the limits a bit further, hopefully developing the skills to match as you go.

Look how many F1 drivers started off in Go-Karts, they teach you a lot about driving without going a million miles an hour, and getting one round a track quickly requires real skill precisely because of their limited power & grip.

[ronnie_rotten]

Chicken Drumstick, on 03 Oct 2013 - 1:08 PM, said:

If you need the CAT to pass the MoT emissions test, I'd personally say it isn't a worth while mod to have to faff with it twice a year. The extra power you'll get will be minimal unless you building a whole system. And if you are, then a CAT won't actually be a limiting factor on the HP levels an RV8 produces.

I thought a cat reduced harmful gasses in the exhaust? Isn't a diesel emmisions test only concerned with particulates, meaning the cat is irrelevant for the test? Petrol test is concerned with exhaust gas composition.

My last 300 had no cat and easily passed emmisions tests by a significant margin...

And I'm sure the op has a 300tdi disco... All thus v8 stuff kinda just got jumbled in when somebody mentionef a rev limiter...

[Chicken Drumstick]

Chicken drumstick - I think you're missing the point. In a stock vehicle you are "worse off" so you have to really look, think, concentrate, pick the best line, etc.

I don't think recovery points count.

At something of an extreme - I've driven my portal-axled 109 round Seven Sisters, and also my bone-stock TD4 Freelander. Now, the FL won't go where the 109 goes, so you are "worse off". However, from a driving skill point of view, you could put any muppet in the 109 and they could point it at most stuff and it would just steamroller through it without thinking. You don't really need to worry about ground clearance, traction, momentum, picking lines, escape routes, damage, etc. etc., anything under 18 inches tall you just roll over. You could put it in 1st low and sit on the bonnet eating a mars bar for all the difference it makes in most situations.

In the freelander you have to concentrate like hell, look out for every rock, tree stump, pot hole, etc., judge the available grip, work out what happens if you don't make a climb or belly out half way along a track, try to keep the wheels out of the ruts, know how much momentum to carry (too much and you risk ploughing into something solid), watch out for approach/departure/breakover angles, and have a few tricks for getting out of places when you "fail to proceed", etc. etc.

So, you get stuck a lot sooner in the "worse" car, but that means you reach the limits much sooner, and the limits are where you learn the most. From there, you can upgrade to move the limits a bit further, hopefully developing the skills to match as you go.

Look how many F1 drivers started off in Go-Karts, they teach you a lot about driving without going a million miles an hour, and getting one round a track quickly requires real skill precisely because of their limited power & grip.

I'm certainly not trying to disagree with your points. But in your example, a novice is far more likely to cause serious damage to a Freelander than your 109, simply because it is more difficult to drive on tough terrain. And if you are less experienced you are unlikely to know what to look for, or what to look out for.

Surely as a learning process you don't start with the most challenging and difficult starting point. From this I'm not saying all novice off roaders should be in monster trucks. Just that a completely 100% stock vehicle can be a very steep learning curve and one that isn't always needed to grasp what the lesson is. Although this is condition and terrain specific.

Personally tyres and protection are the two main areas I'm talking about.

I've seen a stock L322 get stuck on a level field, and I mean completely stuck, and with a well versed and experienced driver. All a novice would have learnt is that in that situation is that a stock trim RR was over matched. A V8 90 on some non standard mud terrains, could not only navigate the terrain with ease, but also drag the Range Rover out.

In such an example, having the vehicle prepped for the conditions made all the difference.

Another example I can think of was at the ALRC RTV National a couple of years ago. The course went over a huge tree stump. You had no real choice but drive over it if you wanted to compete. A completely stock vehicle, especially on small tyres would just end up in a world of grief (and there are pictures to support this). I was in 90, but suffered damage to the sill panel. Some 'rock sliders' would have allowed me to drive it without damage. In such an example a modded vehicle would have proved the better bet, for any grade of driver.

[discomikey]

I think this depends what you want to do, the terrain and the vehicle you actually have.

Lets not forget a Series in stock guise can easily run 7.50's or 235/85R16's. Which is a fairly sizeable tyre. But think how many people really off road on a set of 205's? That smaller tyre and lower ground clearance is a hindrance. Therefore a Series truck is already fairly well lifted and can run a good tyre size.

A Disco in stock trim will be running smaller tyres like 205's, and while it's still a capable machine, it will generally get beached more easily and would work better off road with some 235/85's on. But in order to do this, you'll either need to trim the arches or give it a mild lift. And I can understand why some people don't want to trim the body work.

I'm certainly not against learning how to drive something first, but I don't think you need to always be completely stock just to prove a point. It'd be like going on a track day with brake pads not capable of handling 2 hot laps and tyres that'd fall apart 3/4 of the way round the track.

CD, sorry for the misunderstanding,

i have owned and off roaded a disco, with 235/70R16 tyres (same dims as standard disco tyres) which were insa turbo sahara's.

my origional point was dont get carried away with all the bolt on mods, just pick a decent tyre suited to your needs to start with and go from there. a disco on standard size off road tyres is surprisingly capable. and youll soon learn that it is entirely possible to follow those with the slightly taller tyres, (i.e. 7.50 height) you just need to learn the difference in driving style.

which you will soon do after getting stuck once or twice,

I'm certainly not trying to disagree with your points. But in your example, a novice is far more likely to cause serious damage to a Freelander than your 109, simply because it is more difficult to drive on tough terrain. And if you are less experienced you are unlikely to know what to look for, or what to look out for.

Surely as a learning process you don't start with the most challenging and difficult starting point. From this I'm not saying all novice off roaders should be in monster trucks. Just that a completely 100% stock vehicle can be a very steep learning curve and one that isn't always needed to grasp what the lesson is. Although this is condition and terrain specific.

Personally tyres and protection are the two main areas I'm talking about.

I've seen a stock L322 get stuck on a level field, and I mean completely stuck, and with a well versed and experienced driver. All a novice would have learnt is that in that situation is that a stock trim RR was over matched. A V8 90 on some non standard mud terrains, could not only navigate the terrain with ease, but also drag the Range Rover out.

In such an example, having the vehicle prepped for the conditions made all the difference.

Another example I can think of was at the ALRC RTV National a couple of years ago. The course went over a huge tree stump. You had no real choice but drive over it if you wanted to compete. A completely stock vehicle, especially on small tyres would just end up in a world of grief (and there are pictures to support this). I was in 90, but suffered damage to the sill panel. Some 'rock sliders' would have allowed me to drive it without damage. In such an example a modded vehicle would have proved the better bet, for any grade of driver.

i would not entirely agree with this post, i can see exactly where your coming from, but on the face of it, unless said novice was a complete and utter twerp, he wouldnt pick a standard FL and take it into the woods at bala, or follow FF's 109. He/she would more than likely dip their toes in the water so to speak rather than go in full bore and put a con rod through the block. or come down a 45 degree clay slope in the wet with trees at the bottom.

to start with at least, most poeple wouldnt even think of attempting such a decent. to be honest, a lot of experienced off roaders wouldnt attempt such a feat unless they were nutters and had at least premeditated an/multiple escape routes.

hope ive cleared my point up.

[Bowie69]

That and if it goes wrong in the Freebie, you are alive, you get it wrong in an 'extreme' situation in FF's 109 and you probably kill yourself.

[discomikey]

another note, no doubt you weould agree.

lets say per chance, your out with a mate, you left your truck at home. which you learnt to drive off road with lockers etc;

Now, you can most probably take it some impressive places using the lockers and flex and simex 35" tyres and anything else you have fitted.

which is only a good thing right, yes. BUT

what says your mate somehow gets smacked in the face by a passing tree, or perhaps rambler. and needs urgent attention to the head (more than he already did)

you are at the bottom of a valley in a tricky spot, on a tricky lane. the tree / rambler has left you for dead and his truck is nigh on standard apart from maybe some tyres. and lets say a winch as otherwise it would be stupid to go greenlaning on your own.

as the tree left with the rambler, you have no anchor points.

its drive or stay there and give him the kiss of life. you choose drive. but you cant get up the axle twister hill.

"Darn, my truck would tiddle this" we are in a real situation now.

you spend hours and eventually get out, having in an angry and hopeless push smashed in a CV joint for good measure lets say

and you get to the hospital, the doctor fixes his head but his face is stuck that way as while you were trying to get out the wind changed direction.

Now, lets put the hand on the other foot.

you are out in your lockered flexy, simex'd brute of a challenge trucky thing, (lets call it the purple one)

you get hit by the rambler/tree,

he has to drive your truck,

he gets you out safe and damage free without so much as even thinking of engaging a locker. and to make things even better you found the tree who hit you ran off and cut it down as you were making such good time, your face gets fixed and all is well..

very random, would probably never happen, but its just nice to know you would be capable in an unfamiliar vehicle as well as your own even if it is not as well equipped.

[Nigelw]

You know I saw things the whole other way around about 8 or 9yrs ago.

Devils pit Barton-le-clay, chilly October morning, couldn't help but admire the most tricked up truck I had ever seen in person, a 90 with ALL the kit, Scorpion extreme orange everything and shiny as you liked, two hours later I watched the same guy going away in an ambulance and his (well what was left of it!) truck going away on the back of a wrecker later on, turned out he built it to go off road but had never really done anything more than a little light laning and when he unleashed this thing he did so with gusto thinking it was taking on all challenges, well it was him doing a long climb with axle twisters in it that threw him, apparently he stalled it and didn't know what to do, panicked and ended up rolling it down the hill.

It was his inability that lead to his down fall but his well prepared truck that got him up that high in the first place.

There is a lesson in there somewhere but fked if I know where to look, maybe you can work it out?

[Mr Noisy]

Discomikey = comedy guy

[Chicken Drumstick]

CD, sorry for the misunderstanding,

i have owned and off roaded a disco, with 235/70R16 tyres (same dims as standard disco tyres) which were insa turbo sahara's.

my origional point was dont get carried away with all the bolt on mods, just pick a decent tyre suited to your needs to start with and go from there. a disco on standard size off road tyres is surprisingly capable. and youll soon learn that it is entirely possible to follow those with the slightly taller tyres, (i.e. 7.50 height) you just need to learn the difference in driving style.

which you will soon do after getting stuck once or twice,

i would not entirely agree with this post, i can see exactly where your coming from, but on the face of it, unless said novice was a complete and utter twerp, he wouldnt pick a standard FL and take it into the woods at bala, or follow FF's 109. He/she would more than likely dip their toes in the water so to speak rather than go in full bore and put a con rod through the block. or come down a 45 degree clay slope in the wet with trees at the bottom.

to start with at least, most poeple wouldnt even think of attempting such a decent. to be honest, a lot of experienced off roaders wouldnt attempt such a feat unless they were nutters and had at least premeditated an/multiple escape routes.

hope ive cleared my point up.

235/75's will likely fit a Disco fine, 235/85's won't without doing something to it. 235/85's are pretty standard fit on 90/Series.

I too have off roaded a Disco, I used to compete in RTV events with one, even managed a trophy in mine at one of the Nationals. But some terrain, particularly on trails sections will be damaging to a Disco, even more so on smaller wheels.

Maybe I shouldn't use RTV trails as an example, but as they dictate the course, you don't always as a driver have a huge amount of choice on where you drive. Of course you can fine tune your line and approaches, but not to the same degree you can if you aren't competing.

Many people come to RTV trails as their first taste of off roading, or at least their first proper taste. So yes, you often do get very standard vehicles, with very novice drivers attempting some fairly serious terrain.

I've seen stock 90's on the wrong tyres slide into trees, where as running some decent off road tyres would in all likelihood have prevented this. Personally I think that is an overly harsh 'lesson' and one not really worth it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying mod mod mod I'm just saying some mods won't degrade from the learning experience and will serve to stop you either damaging the vehicle, or just getting hugely frustrated at not getting anywhere.

Bumper mods, steering guard, camel cut and tyres are all sensible things to do if you plan to tackle any sort of challenging terrain. Just as you'd put on walking boots, a warm jacket and some water proofs if you planned to go hiking in the Lake District.

[Chicken Drumstick]

another note, no doubt you weould agree.

lets say per chance, your out with a mate, you left your truck at home. which you learnt to drive off road with lockers etc;

Now, you can most probably take it some impressive places using the lockers and flex and simex 35" tyres and anything else you have fitted.

which is only a good thing right, yes. BUT

what says your mate somehow gets smacked in the face by a passing tree, or perhaps rambler. and needs urgent attention to the head (more than he already did)

you are at the bottom of a valley in a tricky spot, on a tricky lane. the tree / rambler has left you for dead and his truck is nigh on standard apart from maybe some tyres. and lets say a winch as otherwise it would be stupid to go greenlaning on your own.

as the tree left with the rambler, you have no anchor points.

its drive or stay there and give him the kiss of life. you choose drive. but you cant get up the axle twister hill.

"Darn, my truck would tiddle this" we are in a real situation now.

you spend hours and eventually get out, having in an angry and hopeless push smashed in a CV joint for good measure lets say

and you get to the hospital, the doctor fixes his head but his face is stuck that way as while you were trying to get out the wind changed direction.

Now, lets put the hand on the other foot.

you are out in your lockered flexy, simex'd brute of a challenge trucky thing, (lets call it the purple one)

you get hit by the rambler/tree,

he has to drive your truck,

he gets you out safe and damage free without so much as even thinking of engaging a locker. and to make things even better you found the tree who hit you ran off and cut it down as you were making such good time, your face gets fixed and all is well..

very random, would probably never happen, but its just nice to know you would be capable in an unfamiliar vehicle as well as your own even if it is not as well equipped.

Sorry, but these 'what if' things are a bit silly to compare IMO.

Lets start for

1. I've not said anything about lockers and I specifically said NO lift. So you are talking my points out of context before even starting.

2. Use your example and instead of you having a modded vehicle. What if you can't drive at all? In such a situation mods or no mods it'd make no odds.

3. Just because someone has driven a modded rig hardly means they cannot drive a standard one, or at least learn how to on the fly and a lot quicker than a total novice, as evidently they will still have some off road experience

4. What if even the greatest off road driver in the world couldn't drive the stock vehicle back up the axle twisting hill.

As said, I really don't think 'what if's' are really worth discussing. Too many variables and no actual substance.

But the key point is we are not talking about extreme modded vehicles. Just "properly" prepared ones.

And for the record, what if our novice had a stock D2 with traction control and some ok tyres. The TCS will simulate lockers pretty well in many off road situations, or least allow you to do things or get away with things where an open diff'd non TCS D1 wouldn't. Would the advice then be to disable the TCS on the D2?

[Chicken Drumstick]

You know I saw things the whole other way around about 8 or 9yrs ago.

Devils pit Barton-le-clay, chilly October morning, couldn't help but admire the most tricked up truck I had ever seen in person, a 90 with ALL the kit, Scorpion extreme orange everything and shiny as you liked, two hours later I watched the same guy going away in an ambulance and his (well what was left of it!) truck going away on the back of a wrecker later on, turned out he built it to go off road but had never really done anything more than a little light laning and when he unleashed this thing he did so with gusto thinking it was taking on all challenges, well it was him doing a long climb with axle twisters in it that threw him, apparently he stalled it and didn't know what to do, panicked and ended up rolling it down the hill.

It was his inability that lead to his down fall but his well prepared truck that got him up that high in the first place.

There is a lesson in there somewhere but fked if I know where to look, maybe you can work it out?

That sounds like a very sad tale. But who is to say they wouldn't have done the same thing in a standard 90? At a trial I watched a novice drive up a bank sideways and badly roll a Series III. It was completely stock.

[ronnie_rotten]

I think you should write 'choose your own adventure books' like I used to read at school. 'Hell climb' if you need a title to set you off...

[FridgeFreezer]

That sounds like a very sad tale. But who is to say they wouldn't have done the same thing in a standard 90? At a trial I watched a novice drive up a bank sideways and badly roll a Series III. It was completely stock.

Put it another way - if you want to learn to ski, do you start by hurling yourself down the black run and hoping you live?

The standard 90 would not have got as far up the hill so may have toppled, but not come crashing down from a great height. There will always be an exception - you can drive a standard car off a cliff just as easily as anything else - but generally starting small is quite a popular way to learn stuff.

[Chicken Drumstick]

Put it another way - if you want to learn to ski, do you start by hurling yourself down the black run and hoping you live?

But is that not a different point? For example, when learning to ski you go prepared with the correct level of safety gear and preparation.

Where you choose to try and learn or what you ski on isn't really the same thing as the equipment preparation before hand.

On this level, is off roading any different? Surely prepping a vehicle correctly with the correct safety equipment is just as key for a novice as an expert.

If you chose to abuse it, that's a different matter entirely.

The standard 90 would not have got as far up the hill so may have toppled, but not come crashing down from a great height. There will always be an exception - you can drive a standard car off a cliff just as easily as anything else - but generally starting small is quite a popular way to learn stuff.

[Nigelw]

I much prefer the lads who wreck a standard rot-box than the "all the gear and no idea" crowd, the lads wreck it and big time and have no such portrayal of vehicle status to attain, the "all the gear" mob get pizzy when they do get stuck, stressed up over nothing when it comes to actually driving. Hence why they bought all the gear, they have no idea of what they are actually going to need, nor how to use it as they often have not taken the time to learn the basics.

I spent 18 weekends spectating and helping at trials and events before I actually participated in a trial, even then easy driving and then lots of practice of my mistakes on pay and play days so I could learn better vehicle control and reactions to my inputs.

Christ that is over 7yrs since I actually competed a truck and now 3yrs since I last did any real off road driving, gonna be a little bit rusty when I do get back out there, but same again, start slow and small and build up to the higher ranks.

[qwakers]

i feel i should stick my nose in from one who has receltly tried to do the take a standard disco offroad thing.

the first time i went to a pay and play day with my totally standard truck(with a winch bolted on, of course, stupid not to) i had a lot of fun but broke a few things.... like my front steering arm for instance. that prompted me to buy decent tyres and a steering guard

that's all folks. ive not since broken anything bar one window sliding into a tree (got a bit ambitious on a punch hunt lol) the disco is very capable but the mods i have done i would consider essential if you want to be able to drive it home at the end of the day..

tyres because high speed road tyres have 0 grip

steering guard because you are not always going to see that lump of granite or tree stump

winch because you are new at this and it would be nice to be able to drag yourself out of the **** you just got yourself in....

[TheRecklessEngineer]

But is that not a different point? For example, when learning to ski you go prepared with the correct level of safety gear and preparation.

Where you choose to try and learn or what you ski on isn't really the same thing as the equipment preparation before hand.

Disagree.

If you're a beginner and you're stupid enough to buy/hire all the expensive racing/off-piste kit, just having it on doesn't give you the ability to throw yourself down a black slope.

[Mongrel]

Having read 4 pages of 'who's most likely to kill themself?', I think you lot have probably got me just about scared enough to question my ability to navigate the bumpy farm tracks I potter around!

[honitonhobbit]

Out of interest does Harper Adams run an off road driving course as part of it's curriculum?

[discomikey]

not really no, there is a university club, and we run events from "drive what you bring" pay and plays to punch hunts and everything between.

in our course (Off Road Vehicle Design) we did get taught the basics in a 1 hour lesson except we were all way above that level so the tutor just let us play!

[honitonhobbit]

I would be worth seeing if you could get it added to the curriculum. Get and external LANTRA or NPTC instructor and assessor in to get a competence ticket. On that 1 hour session did you drive like you did in the video clips? If so with a bit of coaching/instruction - say three to four days work, the bulk of the mistakes you made could be relatively easily corrected. Worth doing...