New MS2 build - idles like a purring kitten and runs like a rabid monk

[travm]

Howdy,

I have a MS2 V3 newly minted and installed on my 4.6 with much gnashing of teeth over wiring and VR sensor shielding issues and general banging about never having done this before.

The car is a little odd - '86 Rangie Vitesse originally (4.2 with the bigger valve heads), it had an old, hand soldered, Motec fuel only ECU on it which died (hence the Megasquirt). Threw a main cap through the side of the original block a few years back, now has a new 4.6lt short motor in it. EFI setup has the old 3.5l injectors, temp based air control valve thingy on the front of the block.

After some VR signal shielding issues and a fuel pump wiring problem (which had killed the original ECU main board) she starts (yay!)

Runs a little rough while warming up but pretty OK and I've tuned the idle now so it purrs like a very happy little kitten.

Problem is as soon as I start to try and raise the revs it's all over the shop. Missing, bucking, kicking, panting. Generally made of fail.

Attached are the MSQ and a start up log. (edit: I don't have permission to upload an MSL file??)

Would appreciate some advice.

Cheers,

Trav.

2014-07-17_00.07.44 still running rough.msq

[Cheesy]

Im not much further along that you but since no one else has chimed in, I would say that the fuel table looks ok at a glance but the injector characteristics are not what I have. Mine were copied from http://www.extraefi.co.uk/MS2_Settings.html#injchar

Injector dead time 1.0ms

Voltage correction 0.2

PWM current limit 100%

PWM time threshold 25.6ms (no idea why this is so specific)

Injector PWM period 66us

[travm]

Im not much further along that you but since no one else has chimed in, I would say that the fuel table looks ok at a glance but the injector characteristics are not what I have. Mine were copied from http://www.extraefi.co.uk/MS2_Settings.html#injchar

Injector dead time 1.0ms

Voltage correction 0.2

PWM current limit 100%

PWM time threshold 25.6ms (no idea why this is so specific)

Injector PWM period 66us

Howdy,

My injectors are low-z so if run at 100% current will heat up and die. They are the original injectors from a 3.5lt (circa '86) which were original in the car.

You can run high-z injectors at 100% current (and that oddly specific time of 25.6ms) but not low-z.

Settings I have tuned a little are now 30% current limit and 1.3ms time threshold. It is a 'fake' peak and hold setup - PWM so some initial full current (the 1.0 or in my case now 1.3ms) followed by 30% of current at 66us intervals means they don't heat up and the current is enough to hold the injector open for the required time.

Mine still run's oddly but I have just opened a log in MLV and then opened up the tune file in MLV as well and it is showing a 16x16 VE table. In the tune file it is set up as 12x12. There are some odd values in there (circled in red) - can anyone comment, is this a bug in MLV or is my tune file corrupt somehow which is why I'm getting weird issues??

Cheers,

Trav.

[FridgeFreezer]

I'm hazy on MS2 but some more details would be handy;

Are you running direct coil drive & VR sensor input to the ECU or are you using EDIS?

Are you getting ECU resets when it pops and bangs?

Can you post one or more of:

- A datalog file from when the problem is occurring

- A screenshot of the graphs from the data log view when the problem is occurring

- A screenshot of the gauge readout from megatune/Tunerstudio when the problem is occurring

[Quagmire]

Forgetting the fact that the load axis looks bonkers as you have highlighted, those VE values look a little bit all over the shop... Values are usually supposed to be fairly smooth across the table with no sudden changes.

[FridgeFreezer]

Posts overlapped there; If you're running low-Z injectors with PWM current limiting, check your ECU has the full flyback protection circuit and check you have good solid grounds to the ECU. PWMing injector current causes significant voltage spikes / interference which can throw the VR sensor circuit off and cause all manner of other problems.

My previous questions about resets etc. still stand, PWM noise / spikes could cause ECU resets which will throw stuff all over the place.

Quagmire is also right, your VE table is nuts, the values should flow relatively smoothly not jump about like that. 1st check: Have you loaded your MSQ into MegaLogViewer before loading the log? Does MLV need to be told which version of firmware you're running?

The spikes on your graphs, if they are real (no indication of max/min values or timescale???) look an awful lot like electrical noise causing all the input values to jump around.

But all this is getting ahead of ourselves - 1st off make sure that MLV is telling the truth by ensuring that it knows what sort of data it's loaded.

[Cheesy]

I know it is not overly helpful but ditching those injectors was pretty much one of the first things I decided on, I really wasnt keen on using them with the 15 year old bits of hose connecting them to the fuel rail, the ones on the parts engine I had tore in half (easily) before they pulled off the fuel rail. I ended up using some slightly oddball injectors, they are a Bosch ones but licensed to Mitsubishi, CDH166, and they do fit in the early EFI manifold although I did have to make a new fuel rail as they are much shorter and smaller tops than the 3.9 - 4.6 rover ones. You may be able to find some Falcon or Comodore ones that will fit the manifold and the 3.9 rail?

This is what my table looks like at the moment, it has gone through megalog viewer once and does run as well as the 4CU system already but it needs a fair bit of tuning still. I think my required fuel is 16, standard regulator with 230cc injectors (@43psi) on a 4.4l engine

[FridgeFreezer]

The joy of MS is you can pick any injectors you want & just tweak the settings to match. As long as they fit and can flow enough fuel you're golden. These days with 4-pot family runabouts hitting 200bhp+ you can almost pick any 8 injectors and they'll likely flow enough.

[Bowie69]

I would say your AE setting are all over the shop, especially given how the VE table is getting tuned.

[Rangie46]

I would say your AE setting are all over the shop, especially given how the VE table is getting tuned.

Been doing some reading on this myself in the mega manual and else where, should you deactivate ae when you start tuning your ve? as some say yes and some say no.

[Bowie69]

No... leave it, MT or TS are supposed to take this into account.

BUT, yours seems way out as I say, so may be worth posting your settings here for comparison to others.

[travm]

The fuel table pic above was the wrong one in MLV (showing 16x16 on a map that was 12x12 - table was ok, it's just the display that is off).

She runs OK now, up to about 2500rpm.

Looking at the logs it looks like something mechanical is going wrong at that point. The tooth log and composite logs show a regular issue as RPMs increase. Might be a tooth on the VR sensor (35DM8 dizzy) a bit off maybe?

Does anyone know what the recommended air gap in the dirstributor should be? I can only find reference to "no less than 6 thou" but can't find an actual recommended figure anywhere.

How does one upload log files??

Trav.

[travm]

It won't let me upload the MSL or CSV logs...no luck with zip files either.

Here's some text straight from the composite log - you can see the short tooth time every 7-8 teeth (8 tooth wheel)

1 1 0 1 5.63376 26306.377 1 1 0 1 1.30548 26307.682 1 1 0 1 4.36326 26312.045 1 1 0 1 5.71494 26317.76 1 1 0 1 5.68656 26323.447 1 1 0 1 5.6958 26329.143 1 1 0 1 5.70834 26334.852 1 1 0 1 5.7519 26340.604 1 1 0 1 5.66412 26346.268 1 1 0 1 5.643 26351.91 1 1 0 1 1.30548 26353.215 1 1 0 1 4.3692 26357.584 1 1 0 1 5.72154 26363.305 1 1 0 1 5.69118 26368.996 1 1 0 1 5.69646 26374.693 1 1 0 1 5.7156 26380.408 1 1 0 1 5.76048 26386.168 1 1 0 1 5.66544 26391.834 1 1 0 1 5.62782 26397.46 1 1 0 1 1.29822 26398.76 1 1 0 1 4.38042 26403.14 1 1 0 1 5.7255 26408.865 1 1 0 1 5.70372 26414.568 1 1 0 1 5.7156 26420.283 1 1 0 1 5.73144 26426.014 1 1 0 1 5.78292 26431.797 1 1 0 1 5.70042 26437.498 1 1 0 1 5.66874 26443.166 1 1 0 1 1.29426 26444.46 1 1 0 1 4.41078 26448.871 1 1 0 1 5.75916 26454.63 1 1 0 1 5.72814 26460.36 1 1 0 1 5.71758 26466.076 1 1 0 1 5.7519 26471.828 1 1 0 1 5.78886 26477.617 1 1 0 1 5.70438 26483.322 1 1 0 1 5.6727 26488.994 1 1 0 1 1.30284 26490.297 1 1 0 1 4.42596 26494.723 1 1 0 1 5.77038 26500.492 1 1 0 1 5.74134 26506.234 1 1 0 1 5.74332 26511.979 1 1 0 1 5.74662 26517.725 1 1 0 1 5.80338 26523.527 1 1 0 1 5.71098 26529.238 1 1 0 1 5.70372 26534.941 1 1 0 1 1.2804 26536.223 1 1 0 1 4.45302 26540.676 1 1 0 1 5.7816 26546.457 1 1 0 1 5.74002 26552.197 1 1 0 1 5.75256 26557.95 1 1 0 1 5.77368 26563.723 1 1 0 1 5.81196 26569.535 1 1 0 1 5.74002 26575.275 1 1 0 1 5.71362 26580.988 1 1 0 1 1.29822 26582.287 1 1 0 1 4.4517 26586.738 1 1 0 1 5.80998 26592.549 1 1 0 1 5.79216 26598.342 1 1 0 1 5.78358 26604.125 1 1 0 1 5.81262 26609.938 1 1 0 1 5.86476 26615.803 1 1 0 1 5.78754 26621.59 1 1 0 1 5.76048 26627.35 1 1 0 1 5.79612 26633.146 1 1 0 1 5.84166 26638.988 1 1 0 1 5.80932 26644.797 1 1 0 1 5.81196 26650.61 1 1 0 1 5.83836 26656.447 1 1 0 1 5.9037 26662.352 1 1 0 1 5.8245 26668.176 1 1 0 1 5.7981 26673.975 1 1 0 1 5.83044 26679.805 1 1 0 1 5.89182 26685.697 1 1 0 1 5.85024 26691.547 1 1 0 1 5.85486 26697.402 1 1 0 1 5.8806 26703.283

2014-08-03_13.02.38 as logged.msq

[Cheesy]

Im not sure what the air gap should be but before I removed my distributor I used two thicknesses of standard A4 printer paper, it seemed to work. The one thing I did find was that mine is very sensitive to noise from HT leads, even with shielded cable on the VR sensor. That was giving me resets though, so maybe a different problem. I routed it under the inlet manifold.

[travm]

Im not sure what the air gap should be but before I removed my distributor I used two thicknesses of standard A4 printer paper, it seemed to work. The one thing I did find was that mine is very sensitive to noise from HT leads, even with shielded cable on the VR sensor. That was giving me resets though, so maybe a different problem. I routed it under the inlet manifold.

I'm not getting resets and the regularity of the tooth logs makes me think it is mechanical in nature.

I'm going to try expanding the gap a bit to see if that helps. I've also been advised to try a 10k resistor in line with the sensor wire which I assume is to reduce the voltage back to the ECU. From my understanding the closer the gap the higher the voltage at higher RPM so this would bring it back into a more 'believable' range.

[Cheesy]

I'm not getting resets and the regularity of the tooth logs makes me think it is mechanical in nature.

I'm going to try expanding the gap a bit to see if that helps. I've also been advised to try a 10k resistor in line with the sensor wire which I assume is to reduce the voltage back to the ECU. From my understanding the closer the gap the higher the voltage at higher RPM so this would bring it back into a more 'believable' range.

I had to (maybe I rerouted the VR wire as well) do that mod too to eliminate resets. I cant remember the values but it might have been 10k in line, I just replaced the jumper near the DB37 and there was a second resistor from VR+ to ground, seems a pretty common fix although Im using a Ford VR sensor and custom trigger wheel.

For a while I was using a Jaycar ignition amplifier module (to replace the dead rover one) and some times that would trigger while the engine wasnt even running, maybe the rover sensor is pretty sensitive.

[FridgeFreezer]

Using the internal VR sensor circuit is always a bit of a faff, the VR sensor acts a bit like a microphone and distinguishing the signal in all the noise is a hell of a job. At low RPM the signal is very small (millivolts) and at high RPM the signal can hit +/-300v.

The problem is that on an engine with sparks firing and alternators whirring it's like trying to pick up everything from a hamster fart to Brian Blessed while the next door neighbours let off fireworks and bang on the wall with sledgehammers.

[travm]

I've got a set of LS1 coils and am casting up some mounts for those on the weekend. Soon I'll have a trigger wheel and I'll go grab a crank VR from Nick-a-part (Ford Falcon in origin most likely).

So while I'm savouring the challenges introduced by Lucas Lord of Darkness and his VR sensor's capabilities, I hope to have some shiny new wasted COP ignition bits ready sooner rather than later anyways :-)

[Cheesy]

The LS coils have built in ignitors dont they? that will make it pretty tidy to set up. If I was doing that bit again (the 4 ignition channels) I would take them out to the spare pins near the centre of the DB37 instead of the ones in the manual that sit above the MAP sensor. Im using the Falcon VR sensor mounted on the power steering bracket (on a V-belt motor though).

Were you running the Lucas ignition still? or with the MS controlling the spark running a single coil through the distributor? If the latter did you disconnect the vacuum advance and lock up the centrifugal advance? if not that may be why it runs like a dog. either way the LS coils will be a better option. While you are at pick a part you may as well grab some GM or Bosch coolant and air temp sensors. I went with the Bosch ones as the air temp has a push in plastic body so less heat soak issues. Get some decent injectors while you are there too

[travm]

I'm running a BIP with the coil and distributor. When I pulled apart the Lucas ignition box it had a GM module in it!

Dizzy has the vacuum advance removed and the mechanical welded shut so all good there.

Yeah the LS1 are logic level coils with the igniter integral. Should tidy things up very nicely.

Pick-a-part on the weekend and I'm grabbing everything you've mentioned minus the IAT - I got one from DIYAuto as the old setup didn't have any (it was fuelled by an old, old Motec ECU. hand soldered, with POT adjustment).

I tried adjusting the Air Gap last night and it got worse so tonight will be the in-line resistor option to see if that resolves it. If not that then I'll get the trigger wheel cut (thanks Cheesy) and get the COP in place.

[travm]

Between kids, sport, weather and housework I didn't manage to get to the wreckers over the weekend.

I did manage to sneak in an indoor job and have put the resistor pack back into line with the injectors which should remove them from most of the noise equation just in case. For no reason I removed the pack from the wiring loom when I built it up. Having read a lot more now I realise I should have just left it in place. PWM is a noisy bugger.

Adjusting the GAP on the distributor I did notice there is a very small (0.003") play on the drive - one side had a clearance of 0.006" but when I rotated it through each cylinder position the opposite side had only 0.003" air gap. Maybe that's what the manual refers to when it states "Not less than 0.006".

So I've adjusted it to have 0.006" (the recommended gap) at the closest point resulting in 0.009 on the other side. She revs higher now (to 3100rpm'ish) but not much better than I had before (about 2400rpm). I might go out to a 0.010" gap at the closest point but will do the in-line 10k resistor next unless that gap gets it to 5500rpm.

Cheers,

Trav.

[travm]

10k resistor mod for the win!!

Jumpered between TSEL and VRIN on the board. Lucky I put headers there to make it easy during the build ;-)

All good right through the rev range now.

Time for some tuning. Then the Idle valve install. And the new fuel rails. And the new injectors. Oh, and the LS1 coil pack install.

Might leave the tuning to a simple get it OK attempt for the moment... :-D

Thanks for everyone's advice and assistance!!

Trav.