qwakers Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 as for height i discussed that with my building controller. he said building control are not interested in that part of the ruleing and will sign it off even if over height, as long as it isnt significantly higher than the neighbours garages (no problem) but i will have issues if it gets complained about... in that case i will simply apply for retrospective planning permission. which i would be 99% sure to get.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynic-al Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 I put a canopy door on mine which I hate... but it was free! Roller doors need a lot of headroom, I've fitted a few and it's suprising so I would forget one if you can't go above 2.5m. Even with my canopy door I had to put plates on the rafters to skid it under them as my roof is under 2.5m. I wish I'd gone for barn doors. Obviously the building control / insurance issue depends on your individual circumstance but as a minimum an outbuilding would require electrics to have part p certification by building control or someone appropriately qualified, im sure an electrical fire without that cirtification would lead to uncomfortable conversations with the fire inspector and insurance companies :/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffbeaumont Posted March 8, 2016 Share Posted March 8, 2016 I too find that surprisingly high (but then WTF do I know!). so basically you didn't lay a finger on your garage build? I'm hoping my build wont be quite that much - my initial thoughts are to get someone to do the footings, slab, blockwork and roof. I can then 'finish' it off. I'm inclined to just go for a single skinned wall which will mean less materials and labour. Nope - just around to make decisions, and clearing everything out before the old garage was demolished. I couldn't afford to take anything like enough time out from work to build it myself. Other than slab, blockwork and roof there isn't a great deal more to a garage! Electrics and the door installation, I guess. It would cost me more in time to do the electrics myself, and I'd still have had to have them inspected. My garage isn't properly insulated (we're in Somerset - there's no point for most of the year), but it does have cavity walls and an insulated roller door (the roller door is also a high security version, which adds a bit to the cost. Basically ram resistant). Window and personnel door are standard double glazed uPVC. First sentence is exactly my concern! Although as crclifford has mentioned you could design the roof truss to have the bottom chord set slightly up on the top chords (higher than the eaves) to give you more 'headroom' for the coiled up roller door. You need about 300mm clearance - check the specs for the specific door you plan on - for a roller door. Make sure this is properly accounted for in the plans - don't assume (as I did) that if it's in the spec the draughtsman has actually left enough room... I've never heard about insurance being invalid if you haven't got building control involved? Yes, of course I can understand that if you built something and didn't get building control involved even though you should have, then that could cause issues. But as in this case for example, an outbuilding of less than 30m² does not require building regs so how can insurance companies/conveyancers make it a problem? My reading of that was that there would be problems if you hadn't complied with the regs, rather than hadn't had it inspected when not required to? I.e. you probably wouldn't have any issues until you made a claim, and they'd then use anything non-compliant to wriggle. Another thing to do your homework on is drainage - this was another thing I got caught on. The draughtsman had made assumptions about the drains which I thought the builders had checked - they hadn't, and I only found out later which meant additional groundwork. If I was doing this again I'd dig some holes myself and find out where everything went before I even started getting quotes (look at depth as well as location - if you want to connect into existing drains, do you have enough drop for the distance? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crclifford Posted March 8, 2016 Share Posted March 8, 2016 A thought on the roller door is to get an externally mounted one, if clearance inside is an issue with the bottom chord of any truss. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spearos Posted April 6, 2016 Author Share Posted April 6, 2016 Nope - just around to make decisions, and clearing everything out before the old garage was demolished. I couldn't afford to take anything like enough time out from work to build it myself. Other than slab, blockwork and roof there isn't a great deal more to a garage! Electrics and the door installation, I guess. It would cost me more in time to do the electrics myself, and I'd still have had to have them inspected. My garage isn't properly insulated (we're in Somerset - there's no point for most of the year), but it does have cavity walls and an insulated roller door (the roller door is also a high security version, which adds a bit to the cost. Basically ram resistant). Window and personnel door are standard double glazed uPVC. You need about 300mm clearance - check the specs for the specific door you plan on - for a roller door. Make sure this is properly accounted for in the plans - don't assume (as I did) that if it's in the spec the draughtsman has actually left enough room... My reading of that was that there would be problems if you hadn't complied with the regs, rather than hadn't had it inspected when not required to? I.e. you probably wouldn't have any issues until you made a claim, and they'd then use anything non-compliant to wriggle. Another thing to do your homework on is drainage - this was another thing I got caught on. The draughtsman had made assumptions about the drains which I thought the builders had checked - they hadn't, and I only found out later which meant additional groundwork. If I was doing this again I'd dig some holes myself and find out where everything went before I even started getting quotes (look at depth as well as location - if you want to connect into existing drains, do you have enough drop for the distance? Thank you Geoff - for the reality check! I think with my budget a block built garage is out of the question now. I just don't think SWMBO will allow that sort of money to be spent on my 'shed'! A block built garage would have been secure, fireproof and of course it could have been sited right on the boundary. However for cost reasons I think I'm going to have it built out of wood. The appearance of wooden buildings really appeals to me, they are also drier and warmer, so there are some benefits from using wood. Biggest problem for me though is having it over 1m from the boundary and still being functional. I was thinking something like this, interesting read if you have a spare hour! - http://www.thewoodhaven2.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=198&sid=daa42267dec86dfc08ba41175d6751d8 Erecting a wooden building on a brick plinth and constructing it so it can 'breath' seem to be the key to a wooden building that lasts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoggyN Posted April 6, 2016 Share Posted April 6, 2016 With regard to the 20 degree roof pitch. I have a 5 degree roof pitch on an outbuilding and haven't had any issues at all. It's roofed with traditional 3" profile corrugated iron. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffbeaumont Posted April 7, 2016 Share Posted April 7, 2016 Thank you Geoff - for the reality check! I think with my budget a block built garage is out of the question now. I just don't think SWMBO will allow that sort of money to be spent on my 'shed'! A block built garage would have been secure, fireproof and of course it could have been sited right on the boundary. However for cost reasons I think I'm going to have it built out of wood. The appearance of wooden buildings really appeals to me, they are also drier and warmer, so there are some benefits from using wood. Biggest problem for me though is having it over 1m from the boundary and still being functional. I'd have been perfectly happy with a good quality wooden structure - it was space that forced us to shell out for brick. The existing garageshack was built with a party wall with the neighbours garage and using the boundary wall extended up as it's back wall (probably not legal when it was built - definitely not now - as it means it overhangs the boundary!) As it is the new garage is only 4.8m long internally on it's shorter side (it's not square), and making the old internal wall weatherproof and then coming back a meter from that would have lost a chunk more garden. Realistically, probably the only way to do it would have been to put a turning area where the garage is and then turn the garage 90o and put it in the middle of the garden. Which would have left us with virtually no garden... On the plus side we'd have gained a decent drive! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoggyN Posted April 7, 2016 Share Posted April 7, 2016 You can overhang the boundary if the neighbour agrees. Currently my planned garage will overhang the boundary with next door, as does the guttering on the whole back side of my house. It would be a good idea to get it added to the deeds as an easement though... which costs more money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffbeaumont Posted April 7, 2016 Share Posted April 7, 2016 If planning are involved you've got to get it past them, too - we did agree overhanging the boundary slightly with our neighbours, but our planning permission has a specific restriction saying we can't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted April 7, 2016 Share Posted April 7, 2016 My 1st shed was a steel one from Premier Steel Buildings (see ebay!), 8mx5m with roller-shutter door, came in at 4.4k delivered some years ago now. Not heard anything about fire-proofing a steel building and not sure WTF you could do to make it less combustible than it already is The recent brick garage build had to go through planning (4m x 11m ish), but they were helpful enough and apart from a couple of details where I got the wrong scale on the drawings it was no problem - and as others have said, at least having done planning you know you're 100% in the clear, no question. For a simple garage you only need very basic plans, it's not too bad, I could post mine up if it would be helpful. Had to go sectional up & over shutter door to keep the roof height down whilst also getting an ambulance in there and not swinging any part of a door out over the pavement (for planning), the sectional doors are insulated and only need about 150mm of overhead space, you can sort-of see it here: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonr Posted April 7, 2016 Share Posted April 7, 2016 I have a plan! In fact it's an extension of what I did. Because I live on a corner plot, I need planning permission for pretty much anything, including a tiny garden shed! My solution was to build a temporary structure, bolted to the underlying base. You can see it before I completed it here: The apex of the roof is exactly 2.5m high with a fall of 5 deg. The roof trusses are made from 50x50x1.5 wall box section - and including the roof covering only weighs 170kg. The 'door' is sufficiently high to drive my 110 in (just). I got the idea from someone who was refused permission to raise the roof of his workshop and instead made the whole thing telescopic so he could have a 4m roof when he needed. His was based (like mine) on telescopic box sections as the legs with locking pins. Unlike mine, he used a winch with four cables attached to the drum and pulleys on the legs. It seemed to work really well. His roof was pretty big and original to the building. He had installed trusses to keep the roof rigid as it was lifted and (like mine) used the same curtain material as truck sides to fill the gap as it opened. OK, I have no walls (other that the two garden walls, and the wall of my workshop - but all up, it cost less than £500 inc the polycarbonate roof. I need to replace the back wall of my workshop as it's pretty rotten - and plan to make it from the same Polycarbonate on top of a steel frame. Si 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwakers Posted April 7, 2016 Share Posted April 7, 2016 a local farmer down this way got planning permission for a large equestrian center,( a block of stables, a indoor competition arena, outdoor school etc) permission was granted no problem but when he started using it the locals complained about the amount of lorrys carrying horses to and fro. this went on for quite some time and even though planning for its use as well as the buildings itself was granted and the farmer complied completely with them, permission for their use was withdrawn and the buildings now stand empty and unused. i suppose my point being two fold, planning is a farce and even if planning is granted, your neighbours can still screw you over if they're "Persons Resembling a Pink Starfish". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonr Posted April 7, 2016 Share Posted April 7, 2016 If that happens, apply for planning permission to build a Cell Tower on a bit of green (not yours) close to them. The planning office will obligingly come round an put up notices and your neighbors will be so preoccupied organising petitions & protests - they will forget all about you! [Cough,,,,Allegedly! ] Si Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UdderlyOffroad Posted April 7, 2016 Share Posted April 7, 2016 My 1st shed was a steel one from Premier Steel Buildings (see ebay!), 8mx5m with roller-shutter door, came in at 4.4k delivered some years ago now. Not heard anything about fire-proofing a steel building and not sure WTF you could do to make it less combustible than it already is It was that lot I spoke to Fridge. I suppose you'd see a lot more metal workshops at the bottom of gardens if the regs permitted it. I haven't quite managed to build up the enthusiasm to wade through all 172 pages of part B of the building regs(pdf), but this page gives a brief explanation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejparrott Posted April 7, 2016 Share Posted April 7, 2016 Fridge, all the steelwork in our current building had to be painted with a fire resistant paint when we moved in, to increase the fire proofing of the building. I didn't believe it at the time, and I still don't. The paint is horrible to apply Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynic-al Posted April 7, 2016 Share Posted April 7, 2016 A friend has a 4 post lift outside with a gazebo attached to the bottom of it. When he puts it up he has small weatherproof garage underneath. You could do that on a pop top garage 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 You can overhang the boundary if the neighbour agrees. Currently my planned garage will overhang the boundary with next door, as does the guttering on the whole back side of my house. It would be a good idea to get it added to the deeds as an easement though... which costs more money. Yep, just need a party agreement just in case of future disagreement and for when either property is sold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spearos Posted April 8, 2016 Author Share Posted April 8, 2016 My 1st shed was a steel one from Premier Steel Buildings (see ebay!), 8mx5m with roller-shutter door, came in at 4.4k delivered some years ago now. Not heard anything about fire-proofing a steel building and not sure WTF you could do to make it less combustible than it already is The recent brick garage build had to go through planning (4m x 11m ish), but they were helpful enough and apart from a couple of details where I got the wrong scale on the drawings it was no problem - and as others have said, at least having done planning you know you're 100% in the clear, no question. For a simple garage you only need very basic plans, it's not too bad, I could post mine up if it would be helpful. Had to go sectional up & over shutter door to keep the roof height down whilst also getting an ambulance in there and not swinging any part of a door out over the pavement (for planning), the sectional doors are insulated and only need about 150mm of overhead space, you can sort-of see it here: I spoke to one of Premier Steel's agents. apparently the uprights sometimes need to have fireboard protection to retain integrity should they get very hot or something along those lines... Some info on the planning side of things would be great - going over 2.5m high is a no brainer, so that takes me out of permitted development. I would be interested in your drawings if you'll be kind enough to share. Did you have to submit a location plan and a site/block plan? I think I'm sold on a roller shutter door to be honest (if I can fit one in). I like that they aren't in the way, don't restrict anything when open. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spearos Posted April 8, 2016 Author Share Posted April 8, 2016 I'd have been perfectly happy with a good quality wooden structure - it was space that forced us to shell out for brick. The existing garageshack was built with a party wall with the neighbours garage and using the boundary wall extended up as it's back wall (probably not legal when it was built - definitely not now - as it means it overhangs the boundary!) As it is the new garage is only 4.8m long internally on it's shorter side (it's not square), and making the old internal wall weatherproof and then coming back a meter from that would have lost a chunk more garden. Realistically, probably the only way to do it would have been to put a turning area where the garage is and then turn the garage 90o and put it in the middle of the garden. Which would have left us with virtually no garden... On the plus side we'd have gained a decent drive! Nothing's easy is it?! I remember when we were looking at houses, naively I just thought if it's got a big enough garden for a big shed/garage it'll be fine... Then once we bought the house I started to read about permitted development, building regs etc and realised it's not quite so easy to comply, utilise space and get exactly what you want! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 I'll try and put some stuff up over the weekend if I get a chance. I don't want to post everything as it's got our home address, but PM me your e-mail addy and I'll e-mail you the "full" package as we submitted it. Yes, we had to submit a block plan, it sucks balls but you've just got to pay the money for a proper site plan (doable online) and get it done 'cos they're fussy. What I would say is our local council (Basingstoke) run a planning clinic where you can pop into the offices on a given day/time and a planning bod is there to answer questions for free. I drew out a few basics of what we wanted to do (literally, just pencil scribble on graph paper) to show them, they then told me what they thought, how to apply, what sort of things they needed in the application, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwakers Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 I spoke to one of Premier Steel's agents. apparently the uprights sometimes need to have fireboard protection to retain integrity should they get very hot or something along those lines... Some info on the planning side of things would be great - going over 2.5m high is a no brainer, so that takes me out of permitted development. I would be interested in your drawings if you'll be kind enough to share. Did you have to submit a location plan and a site/block plan? I think I'm sold on a roller shutter door to be honest (if I can fit one in). I like that they aren't in the way, don't restrict anything when open. look at 'external' roller shutters. they dont intrude on internal space at all. little more spendy but what i would have gone for if id gone that route. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffbeaumont Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 The external rollers are often the same door as the internal ones, just with a box for the roller. The door I have can be fitted internally, externally, or even (if enough height is available) within the aperture. Mounted internally you can optionally have a partial or full box (I don't) - the only difference in cost with external mounting is that you have to have the full box. You can't have it as the high security version unless it's internally mounted though, as the mechanism and extra fixings are too accessible to comply with the relevant security standard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted April 9, 2016 Share Posted April 9, 2016 Right, a few details from our plans. I couldn't get Autocad to spit out PDF's this time round so you'll have to live with some shonky screenshots.Our block plan was from www.streetwise.net, unfortunately planners demand this, you can't use google maps or Ozi or scan in a map you haven't paid copyright fees for and you can't even use freely available government mapping or the map on the deeds of your own house so you've got to pay someone £30+ just to promise you haven't stolen a drawing of your own house Plans were drawn in Autocad because I had it but planning lady said for this sort of thing pen & paper would be fine as long as it was to scale. Those triangular scale rulers are very handy for that. They are VERY hot on the scale being right, if it's not to scale you MUST write "not to scale" on it or they'll send it back - ask me how I know! They also want NORTH marked on and some sort of scale marker. You don't need the 3D views, I put those in because it was easy to do in Autocad and I kinda wanted to see what it looked like. As our street slopes a bit I chose the top corner as the datum/reference point as that would give us a handy drop, giving us a taller door at the other end for a low roof height measurement relative to the datum. So, first was a drawing of the existing site with the old garage: Then a "details" picture of the existing site - they like to know about what's nearby, roads, footpaths, street lamps (ask me how I know ), basically ANYTHING within cat-swinging distance of what you're doing: Then you do the same again with the new stuff you're proposing to build - 1st site plan: And then the details again: We also had to fill out a planning application form, not much to it but they do like to know about materials. Not knowing all the various technical ways of describing a brick, you can get away with things like "to match house" or "as existing structure": That's it for now. Everything gets uploaded & submitted through the govt planning portal these days. Any questions I'll try to dig round and see what we did! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spearos Posted April 10, 2016 Author Share Posted April 10, 2016 Right, a few details from our plans. I couldn't get Autocad to spit out PDF's this time round so you'll have to live with some shonky screenshots. Our block plan was from www.streetwise.net, unfortunately planners demand this, you can't use google maps or Ozi or scan in a map you haven't paid copyright fees for and you can't even use freely available government mapping or the map on the deeds of your own house so you've got to pay someone £30+ just to promise you haven't stolen a drawing of your own house Plans were drawn in Autocad because I had it but planning lady said for this sort of thing pen & paper would be fine as long as it was to scale. Those triangular scale rulers are very handy for that. They are VERY hot on the scale being right, if it's not to scale you MUST write "not to scale" on it or they'll send it back - ask me how I know! They also want NORTH marked on and some sort of scale marker. You don't need the 3D views, I put those in because it was easy to do in Autocad and I kinda wanted to see what it looked like. As our street slopes a bit I chose the top corner as the datum/reference point as that would give us a handy drop, giving us a taller door at the other end for a low roof height measurement relative to the datum. That's it for now. Everything gets uploaded & submitted through the govt planning portal these days. Any questions I'll try to dig round and see what we did! Fridge... You're an absolute star!! That's very, very helpful - gives me an idea of what to expect and of course the benefit of your experience (all the 'ask me how I knows')! Appears it's a little more involved than I thought. I was expecting to have to provide drawings/dimensions, however the requirement to go into materials surprises me. Strikes me of more of a regs thing but I guess it's all about appearance. I was kind of hoping to make a few details up as I go - for example the personnel door I thought about sourcing a decent second hand one etc. The next few weeks (months) I need to swot up on all the requirements for an application and get it as clear as I can in my head. However you've given me a great start - I think I need to investigate the 'call in clinic' thing in this area, as I think that'll give me the 'most juice per squeeze'. Oh, and of course I need to finalise a design Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landrover598 Posted April 10, 2016 Share Posted April 10, 2016 You'll now also need to submit a design and access statement for planning along with details of rainwater soakaway to BRE365. The last garage I had approval on had over 35 pages for the planning application. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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