Ideas on stronger axles required

[Chicken Drumstick]

So, partly a vapour project at the moment, but likely to be put into effect at some point.

What are the current ideas of getting stronger axles on a Land Rover?

I do have one restriction... they somehow need to remain "Land Rover"... will explain more in a bit. But this means Mog axles or the like are sadly not an option.

1. There is obviously the Ashcroft (or similar) route of beefing up the old Rover axle. But lets be frank, this is not a cheap route and you can only get them so strong.

2. I've heard about putting Toyota internals inside a Rover axle casing, but I don't know the details or how easy it really is. Nor how good the end result might be.

3. Well that's were I'm a little stuck...

 

Now the restriction is, I do like to play with the ALRC as one of my off road pursuits. And even their new Q class still says Land Rover axles. So as long as they look Land Rover from the outside I think I'll be fine (would like to keep this topic about axles, not the ALRC however  ).

Keeping a Land Rover hub pattern and PCD would be of benefit too, as I have access to lots of sets of wheels and rims.

My only other thought was something Salisbury. A One Ten rear would be the correct track for a coiler. I know it's drum, but I'm sure I've seen people convert them to disc.

Now I'll be honest and say I don't know a huge amount about the Salisbury, i.e. where it's weak parts are.

I do know that they are somewhat of a copy of a Dana 60... so this is where I'm thinking. If I managed to get hold of a Dana 60 front axle from a full size Ford or Chevy truck from the US. How easy would it be to use on a Land Rover? I know there have been loads of different variants.

 

But a Salisbury would easily meet the 'Land Rover' bit and offer a strong axle. I know in the US guys happily run 42" tyres and lockers with the Dana60's no problem.

 

So what would be needed to build a set of good-to-awesome Salisbury/Dana 60 axles for a coiler Land Rover? Or any other ideas on some strong axle setups.

[Soren Frimodt]

As you know, this is a bit of a can of worms, and people have a lot of varying experiences..

But I'll gladly give you my 2cents worth

I would fit a Salibury rear, no hesitation, better in every way, only downside being a more expensive locker than Rover BUT no more expensive than for any other brand of axle ever made, have a look and you'll find that an airlocker for a Rover axle is by far the least expensive of all axle brands from all over the globe. But on the Salisbury you won't ever have to strengthen any other component (some would say the halfshafts are weak, but I have never had any problems with genuine ones, only Britpart cheese ones. Oh and shave the bottom of the diff and won't even notice you have a Salisbury under there.

And in the front I'd find a '70'es RRC  housing, better in every way than the later ones, even down to the Caliper bolts. And fit an Ashlocker, Ashcroft haflshafts and CV's. R&P isn't that much a problem on a coiler unless its very heavy or you have as little mechanical sympathy as Trump has.. well any sympathy for anything! Expensive you might think, but before you even get started on a Dana60 or Ford 9" you'll easily have spent the same amount. And a big bonus is ease of, and value of reselling the bits if you need the money at some point in the future.

This is of course my humble opinion and everybody will disagree 

[dangerous doug]

I run front and rear sailsburys and the only Dana thing about them is the centre. 

I would t know about shaving them but I did notice the lack of ground clearance this weekend in the ruts......that said I did give it some and suffered no breakages. So have to take the rough with the smooth I sopose. My rear came with my 93 110 already had disks on it so they're not all on drums

 

Sailsbury fronts are getting harder to find so maybe you should talk to someone like Rakeway about making you one that somehow incorporates disco 2 knuckles as I am told they have a bigger CV, the front is baisically just a rear with flanges welded on and different shafts

 

dailing that Nigel's axles seem to get good reviews

 

 

[Chicken Drumstick]

What options are there for different diff centres and ratio's on the Salisbury's? Does anyone do an ATB for them and something around the 4.10:1 final drive?

[dangerous doug]

3.5 110/defender

4.7 series 109 rear

5.5 landrover 101

 

you need the carrier for the ratio you select. There is a 4.1 option available from the states for a 3.5 carrier, I will be ordering a set of these soon if you want to share postage......unless I can find a decent pare of 109 axles....

 

alternitively a lot of d60 ratios fit but they are all very low, you drill the carrier bolt holes out to 1/2 inch and need a new prop flange and diff flange. 

[Boris113]

What about D2 axles? Dont know much about them but they still sit in the LR stable and being wider increase stability. IIRC the steering lock is better and the CVs are easy to change if you smash one.  Ashcrofts do a range of parts for them much like their normal Defender offerings.

Downside however is you will have to fab mountings and the wheel PCD is different.

[steve200TDi]

Yes I was going to mention D2 axles, but I too don't know much about them and haven't really found any info on the net which sways me towards them. I was thinking of fitting them to my Racer as the track is wider, but I'll have to change my wheels. Also I would modify the chassis too, so if anything hapens to the axle casing I can just swap one out! As at the moment I have a custom rear axle casing as I have front hockey sticks on the rear with a panhard rod.

 

Steve

[dirtyninety]

D2 axles are fantastically easy to work on. Not the strongest, but they're cheap and plentiful.

[discomikey]

As Chris says, D2 axles are a decent cheap (ish) upgrade whilst still keeping LR axles. They do get bent in hard competition environment especially if your suspension isn't set up right. For low speed stuff like trialling I can't see this being a problem though.  And they are so much nicer to service too!

[toenden]

For the rear I choose an ashcroft locker with std v8 halfshafts. So far no breakages and absolutely nothing to moan about -but I do run smallish 33x12,5 old type mudterrains and only a mildly tweaked 300 tdi. It has however proven itself to be a relatively failsafe setup for my use (challenges, trophys and the odd pomerania). In does mean keeping drums on the rear though! For the front I run some kind of upgraded shafts from our local supplier (cant remember the manufacturer) and a std 4 pin center from a v8 rear. A mix of original and upgraded parts where the code is reliability as where the points are in my opinion :-)

/Mads

[steve200TDi]

13 hours ago, discomikey said:

As Chris says, D2 axles are a decent cheap (ish) upgrade whilst still keeping LR axles. They do get bent in hard competition environment especially if your suspension isn't set up right. For low speed stuff like trialling I can't see this being a problem though.  And they are so much nicer to service too!

It's interesting you say they get bent as I've heard a few people comment about this. Are they actually weaker? So maybe worth adding some bracing to them if I decided to use them for comp safari!

[honitonhobbit]

Pete Rowe used to run hybrid axles in his big block comp safari motor. IIRC he used DANA 60 side gears and special half shafts built to Dana 60 spec. He would be worth talking to

 

The guy to talk to about Toyota internal is this bloke http://www.seriestrek.com/ also does nice OM617 conversion stuff

[Chicken Drumstick]

Thanks for the info and ideas. Need to go and do some reading I think.

 

Re: D2 axles. Are they actually any stronger? I've certainly seen stock D2's break them at trials. And I was under the impression the diff really isn't all that different. And I didn't know they are wider track than a regular coiler axle. Anyone have any figures on this? Are the tubes and shafts longer, or is it all in the hub assembly?

[landroversforever]

25 minutes ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

Thanks for the info and ideas. Need to go and do some reading I think.

 

Re: D2 axles. Are they actually any stronger? I've certainly seen stock D2's break them at trials. And I was under the impression the diff really isn't all that different. And I didn't know they are wider track than a regular coiler axle. Anyone have any figures on this? Are the tubes and shafts longer, or is it all in the hub assembly?

I was under the impression that one of the main reasons behind the D2 axle being stronger is the space for a bigger CV compared to a normal coiler.

 

[dangerous doug]

It is a much bigger CV and better steering lock

 

 

[Cheesy]

There was a conversion in the states using a D60 centre in the Salisbury housing with 35 spline shafts, from what I cant tell they had custom stubs (bigger dia), the hub was bored for bigger bearings and then obviously 35 spline shafts and drive flanges

[muddy]

Do some overtime and buy Ashcroft stuff, it's simple and works.

 

I used to run a front 4 pin and disc sals rear, I broke RH cvs frequently. Then I snapped a rear sals shaft (shear tdi powah!) got fed up, fitted Ashcroft rear shafts, front shafts and cvs. Now I just concentrate on pointing it in the right direction.

 

if you want 4.1 and obviously it's for trailing then I'd fit d2 axles with Ashcroft shafts and cvs. They take standard long nose 24 spline flavour diffs so it's up to you what ingredients you add there. The only downside is the price of an extra hd diff, new wheels and some fabrication.

 

Will.

[Daan]

I don't think there is an argument for using anything else than ashcroft stuff. The toyota conversion used to be offered by jack mcnamara so you could fit toyota diffs in your axle. You would need special shafts though which were at least as expensive as ashcrofts so nothing much gained here. For ALRC, if you get a 4 pin short nose diff and ashcroft shafts it wont break on 7.50-16s. People run 37s on landrover axles these days with decent results. 35s will almost certainly survive on an ashcroft equiped axle. The td5 axles use the same diffs so apart from cv's, there is no real gain. 

[Tanuki]

Salisbury diffs are - if shimmed and set-up properly - pretty much indestructible. They were used on things like 1960s/1970s Bristols, Aston-Martins and E-type Jaguars, as well as "Winget" building-site dump-trucks. The same 'insides' along with a LSD were used in Ford Escort rally-cars in the late-1970s/early-1980s [the 'Atlas' axle]

The 1960s/1970s Jaguar independent-rear-suspension 'lump' featuring a Salisbury Pow-R-Lok LSD was the back-end-of-choice for dragsters and "funny-cars" a while back: they'd happily handle the output of a Ford big-block V8 even when Nitroused (500BHP...)

Important thing is to use the correct oil - otherwise the wavy-plates that provide the LSD action will have a short and unhappy life. Castrol B373 is good.

My non-LR car has a 3.07:1 Salisbury diff which has done over 250,000 miles without trouble!

Edited December 3, 2016 by Tanuki

[Chicken Drumstick]

On 03/12/2016 at 6:29 PM, muddy said:

Do some overtime and buy Ashcroft stuff, it's simple and works.

 

Just trying to look at costings vs gains really. I have nothing against going for Ashcroft stuff, they are local to me. But having a quick look, a front setup would be just over £2000 and I think I'd still need stub axles too. Suspect a rear would be similar money. Anyway, you are looking at £3500-4000 in parts alone for a full Ashcroft setup.

[Bowie69]

Rear is cheaper as no CVs to worry about, but granted, they aren't cheap.

If it were me I'd be looking around on Ebay and like to try and pick up a second hand set, that is, if you have time to overhaul them rather than money to spend.

[dangerous doug]

2 hours ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

Just trying to look at costings vs gains really. I have nothing against going for Ashcroft stuff, they are local to me. But having a quick look, a front setup would be just over £2000 and I think I'd still need stub axles too. Suspect a rear would be similar money. Anyway, you are looking at £3500-4000 in parts alone for a full Ashcroft setup.

 

 

CHEAP

 

STRONG

 

LAND ROVER

 

you can only pick 2

 

cheap and strong won't be landrover landrover and cheap won't be strong...you get the idea

 

Is it a road car?

 

if not there is another option; a hybrid sailsbury with D2 ends. This would add to headaches while getting it made but when done would be a really strong axle

 

[FridgeFreezer]

Cheap option is mechanical sympathy.

Also, sneaking uprated bits into a class that's supposed to be standard is a bit of a dick move.

[Chicken Drumstick]

1 hour ago, FridgeFreezer said:

Cheap option is mechanical sympathy.

Also, sneaking uprated bits into a class that's supposed to be standard is a bit of a dick move.

Even being sympathetic can result in breakages. And as a rule it only works in hindsight rather then when you are stuck or trying to drive somewhere.

 

Not really sure I follow your last comment??? Can you explain it, or have you misunderstood something. Never once mentioned anything about a standard class of any sort. 

[FridgeFreezer]

1. Mechanical sympathy doesn't guarantee zero breakages, but if you break something it's a cheap standard part and you've learnt not to do it again

2. You say:

Quote

I do like to play with the ALRC as one of my off road pursuits. And even their new Q class still says Land Rover axles. So as long as they look Land Rover from the outside I think I'll be fine

Now, to me it sounds like the rules are you've got to retain stock LR axles, or perhaps at least all LR-compatible bits. So, going down a route where you might "hide" non-standard or non-LR components in an LR casing sounds like it may be agin the rules, or at the very least stretching the bounds of good sportsmanship. It also begs the question, why compete if you're not following the rules that your fellow competitors are? You may not care overly much, but the guy who comes in behind you having had to exercise a bit more care because his truck is within the rules might not appreciate it.

 

Back to the subject of axles, Dangerous Doug has hit the nail on the clit. You also need to factor in the huge ball ache of conversions & axle swaps, ashcroft or other uprated bits may seem expensive but the fact it all just bolts in, and you can throw a stock LR part back in its place at a moment's notice, saves a lot of pratting about and a ton of engineering problems needing solved on the way.