Stage one saga.

[Jamie_grieve]

I'm not sure if this post should go in this section or the members vehicles?

It's my first post so be gentle!!

That said, I see a few names I recognise from elsewhere so I don't feel like too much of a stranger.

I have many off road projects but this one's kinda relevant to this forum. I got an old Landrover in 1990, a 1983 stage one. I'd done two fairly comprehensive 88" rebuilds by then and figured It was time for a long wheelbase experience.
I got it home (on a trailer pulled by a 2 1/4 petrol 88"!!), took the tub off it and was dismayed at the rust on it for a seven year old motor. It had been used as a caravan park tug and I reckon it must have had salt in the back judging by the holes in it. Oh, well, took the restrictors out it, took the doors off and saw how fast it went with no body on it. I was impressed!! I was also young and stupid. I decided I hated long wheelbase land rovers and dumped it in the woods to rust as much as it liked.

I dragged it back out the woods a few years later and made a rear chassis for it using a standard 88" rear prop to give a 90.6" wheelbase between the LT95 and the Salisbury diff. It put the rear wheel in the middle of the wheelarch on an 88" tub where it should be and scratched an itch for me ever since I'd had land rovers. I ran it like this for 15 years or so.

It grew an overdrive and Firestone SAT's (remember them..?) then it got a 3.9 after the lumps wore off the camshaft on the 3.5. I used the front cover and carbs off the 3.5 and was surprised again at how well it went. I discovered 900 x 16 Petlas one winter and never looked back. It could sit at 80mph on the motorway with the overdrive in as I found out going to the vets one day.

The overdrive got sacked in favour of a Fairey PTO winch with the lever shifted to the front and a new fabricated front section of chassis. The new back and front met in the middle by cutting the bottom off the old chassis and stuffing lots of box section in there. I kept bending 'normal' Land Rover chassis doing jumps and pulling them with dumpers and diggers so I really wanted to make one that would last. It's incredible that a standard chassis is only 2.1mm thick / 14swg. I've since worked on the heavy duty Wolf chassis which are still the same but reinforced.

It grew a set of 3" angle iron 'rock sliders' and some heavy duty outriggers at some time before we knew to call them that. I'd sussed out that a high lift jack was my best friend and in the years since never went shopping without it rattling around in the back held on by two spare wheel clamps on the rear tub bulkhead,

It grew Santana PS 10 axles (which don't just bolt on contrary to popular opinion) with the disc brakes and wider track the last time it went into the shed and also got treated to a GMC 6.2 litre V8 diesel engine on an LT95 from a 101. It's still the strongest gearbox Land Rover ever made and regardless about the measly torque those V8's make on paper it pulls like a train and got me up a hill climb I'd been trying for years with the petrol V8's.

I actually got the engine and 'box to put in my Volvo C304 6x6 but thought the Land Rover was a better test bed before I cut up my nice Volvo for it.

Another useful modification I made at the start was to put the petrol tank across the chassis above the rear prop where with a bit of body chopping it sits perfectly and can be made to fit the standard filler point and I could still have my batteries and storage under the seats and not worry about grounding the tank out every time I went shopping.

The old bulkhead was pretty shot by this time so I made one by mistake after getting carried away with my new plasma cutter on the old one and some handy sheets of chequer plate I was going to make a pickup bed for the Volvo with.

The first time I put the engine in I used the original engine and gearbox mounts which was handy but I felt the engine would be better further back and lower down to get a little bit of it's weight further back and lower. Between the engine being lower than standard and the wider track it's actually very stable off road. I also got a bit inspired by 'teamidris' amongst others to make space for a hydraulic drive off the end of the crank to power winches and other ridiculous ideas.

Moving it all back meant the poor chassis got the chop again to allow a by now wide angle heavy duty but standard length propshaft to fit. The wheelbase is now 8" longer at 98.6".

The poor old thing was starting to look a bit used as well as the years rolled on and during the last refit also gained some pipework as is the current trend amongst all Land Rover fashion victims like myself. Used to be when it fell over you just put a new roof on it, kicked the wings back into shape and got on with it but alas now after all the EU shenanigans and maybe Y2K or ISO 9001 now we have to put metal bars all over the place to fall over in this health and safety world we live in.

So metal bars it was but I'm quite wee, only 5'8" and as the suspension and tyres grew I didnt. Putting the engine lower meant I was starting to struggle to reach anything over the wings and being the younger side of geriatric knew my eyesight would soon be failing so figured getting in close would be the plan so I decided to have a flippy front.

I know a lot of the challenge lads like to have the front wheels right out front but that can bury you too and I reckon a flat bumper a bit narrower than the track lets you turn into obstacles as you like but in the serious stuff stops the wheels getting caught up in trees and fences and stuff. It also lets you push things easier and gives me something to put the hinges on and saves me cutting up a perfectly good bumper. The hinges are made from old Santana spring shackles cut at a funky angle, polybush type spring bushes and bits of scaffold tube. The bumper is 6mm high tensile box section from a log bolster on a truck and it slides into 10mm plates on the chassis and is a removable thing with the winch to let the PTO power anything else that might go in there instead.

The other end has shaped plugs which slot into the same thing on the front roll hoop and lock with a couple of bolts.

The bonnet has to be lifted off to flip the front.

The suspension is 8+2 Station wagon springs, both drivers side with 5 leaves removed and 11 leaf diesel drivers sides with 4 leafs removed. The shocks have different geometry as do the hangers to make it all work and one ton shackles. It steers and stops as good as a coiler and as you can see has way better articulation than a standard coiler with the added advantage that the steering is so much less vulnerable. I'm not saying it's better, just different and allows it to drag itself through tree stumps, logs and holes easier without the front wheels pointing different ways and run into things much harder with less damage than a coiler.

This is about where it's been for the last three years when I've been in Afghanistan plotting new ways to make noise and mess with it.

I think I want the engine and box back for the Volvo so do I put a Cummins 6BT in? LSx?

Do I get a galvanised chassis and make a nice road legal motor out of it?

It will never ever be competitive in any competition in the UK any more so do I just forget it and move onto building something completely different? The front and rear hoops are not joined as I'm not convinced I want to finish the cage yet if it morphs into something else.

Just to throw a spanner in the works I've got 3 spare TRM 2000 portal axles laying around, a Praga V3s winch coming soon, a pile of 16.00 x 20 tyres and the summer off.
I'm also recovering from spinal surgery I got last week so there's gonna be a bit of vapour building going on first.

Suggestins please!

[dirtydiesel]

Excellent first post Jamie,

Do you have any more specs on the Santana axles?

Trm portals could be a nice hybrid axle with Toyota 8" centers

[Daan]

Hi jamie, welcome to the madhouse. We like people doing things different here, so keep the updates coming.

Daan

[heath robinson]

It's a "My grandfather's axe" sort of truck, I like it.

[steve200TDi]

I think it's a great project, please continue!

It's nice to see someone doing it differently. What are your plans for the rear?

Steve

[FridgeFreezer]

Cool truck, good to see leafers doing something interesting!

[Jamie_grieve]

Do you have any more specs on the Santana axles?

I took loads of photos rebuilding the front one, I should make another thread called 'santana axles' or some such or add it to this one?

Trm portals could be a nice hybrid axle with Toyota 8" centers

I'd keep the TRM 7.5" centres as they're so much stronger than a Toyota 8" and already have diff locks. It's the axle tubes that are the problem, they are 1/2" thick and weigh nearly half a ton complete with centre and portal boxes. Altogether I have 2 front axles and 3 back axles but two of them are busy converting a six cylinder phaser engined Renault midliner to four wheel drive.

If I used the front portal boxes they would make fantastic independent units.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/general-4x4-discussion/924706-portal-axle-rockwell.html

is an old thread about these axles. I'm at about the same place now as i was back when I posted it. I've been back for a few months but couldn't do anything because I had a properly prolapsed disc that was stopping me from walking properly or doing anything.

What are your plans for the rear?

I don't know, I want at least the capping, waist line and something to keep it looking like a Land rover. I don't like the look of tray backs but the upward wheel travel means the wheel boxes are level with the waist line. I had some made from old road signs when it was on the road. The problem is it's just a toy with no purpose. If it had to carry something it would have a tub, if it had to lift something it would have a crane and if it had to pull something it would have a huge winch and that's kinda the problem with where to go. The roll cage stays would dictate the shape a litle but I'm not sure I want to keep using this chassis.

Can I ask what would you guys do with it?

[steve200TDi]

Can I ask what would you guys do with it?

Keep it as a play thing, put a rear tub on the back, extend the wheel boxes (in the rear tub) as you have good axle travel front and rear.

Finish the cage, add a winch (I think you said it already has a PTO winch) and go and have a play!

If you feel you want to do more with it and drive it on the road then you could think about a new chassis and transfer all the bits over.

Steve

[o_teunico]

.

I love your chassis work! That rear section, with so much gap between chassis and axle, is just what I want for my Discovery lowrider project.

[Jamie_grieve]

I love your chassis work! That rear section, with so much gap between chassis and axle, is just what I want for my Discovery lowrider project.

That is exactly the dimensions of a series 2 or three SWB chassis. Stick 8+2's on your old Santana and you'll have exactly the same thing.

I've really enjoyed reading some of your mental posts on here, half the reason I joined actually. You had a mad 6x6 thread somewhere putting wheels in the middle of a Discovery, I can't find it now but I've loads of 6x6 info. I was really surprised to see the Engesa 25 come up.I've got photos somewhere of inside the walking beam.

[o_teunico]

Yes, quite crazy the idea of a 6x6 Disco! I will like to try it someday, even if it´s only in a non road going vehicle.

[Soren Frimodt]

Can only echo others, really a great and interesting project, and seeing as I'm a leafer-lover and Mod'er myself I really dig it Many moons ago my brother paired a stage one and a one ton (I called it stage one-ton) A really capable offroader, with only the size as its big disadvantage. At that point he was the only one running 35" tyres (35"x12.5" BFG M/T) in the Danish Land Rover CLub, so it was really impressive with an SD1 RV8

With all that history and time you've put into it I say keep it as is and build something more "extreme" and with those so fashionable coils, for challenging.

[Jamie_grieve]

I would like to continue it but can't seem to find a direction to go in.

I'll write down the ingredients I already have in the shed apart from what's on the motor already:

2 x LR PTO winches + 1 x Heavy PTO winch.

3 x ZF S5 24 gearboxes, 6.35: 1 first gear, SAE 3, one with hydraulic PTO. 1 x LT77S with short bell housing and Milner V8 adapter plate

3 x Rockwell portal axles, 2 rears, one steer.

3 x rockwell transfer cases, one with rear facing PTO.

1 x LT 230 with PTO for front winch,

1 x LT 95 overdrive

That's the 'goodies', in addition to that, probably the same carp anyone who's been into Landies for years would probably have laying around.

With all that history and time you've put into it I say keep it as is and build something more "extreme" and with those so fashionable coils, for challenging.

I think after all this I'd rather gouge my own eyes out with a wooden spoon than put coils on!!

I hate the way the steering rods and track rod is on them. I've been left high and dry a few times and seen it on others plenty too.

Why they would design an off road vehicle with the track rod hanging below the axle I will never know but it's common on most 4x4 / 6x6 trucks too.

I was thinking of just finishing it as a road motor then using the parts above to build something else, maybe a monocoque with independent suspension.

I don't know how I'd go about putting it on the road again as there's not much original left. I keep Sorning it but really don't know how that's gonna work either when the thing that's sorned keeps changing.

Keep the suggestions coming please!!

[bill van snorkle]

Geez Jaime, you've been round the traps so long I'm astonished that you haven't visited this site before,

Not sure I can offer you any practical suggestions, aside from shipping all your Praga and Rockwell axles over to me that is, .

Your list of ingredients suggest that due to unsprung mass, whatever you build would have more in common with a 4wd tractor than a European spec comp vehicle, so you might as well go as wild as your imagination runs, providing you have ready and regular access to terrain where you can fully exploit your vehicles abilities.

It goes without saying that your build will incorporate portals of some description. How could you bee seen in public without them? But if you insist on retaining LandRovers truly horrible leaf front suspension layout, an antiwrap bar would be essential.

Will be following your progress with interest.

PS, photos of the inside of the Engasa walking beam would be interesting, as I would be interested in knowing if they incorporate a planetary reduction unit concentric with the pivot.

[Jamie_grieve]

same Ploppy Plop Plops anyone

I love the swear filter on here!!!!. I didn't even realise my language was so carp carp **** turd until I read that.

Your list of ingredients suggest that due to unsprung mass, whatever you build would have more in common with a 4wd tractor than a European spec comp vehicle, so you might as well go as wild as your imagination runs, providing you have ready and regular access to terrain where you can fully exploit your vehicles abilities.

You're exactly right, Whatever shifts this lot is probably gonna have a 6BT Cummins and I've this notion of building a monocoque. The tyres are 16.00 x 20. I'm very lucky with regards to access to terrain and project 'B' the LWB Renault transporter will help with additional play grounds further afield.

One of my problems is between the Praga and the Volvo they just out everything the Land Rover so many times over in every kind of terrain and they're the daily drivers!

The Land Rover as the 'toy' is the least capable and does need reinvented. I could fairly quickly finish it as is and have a quite uncompetitive challenge type motor that's mostly reliable and could be kind of entertaining. The second winch could work off the same PTO with use of the free spool levers but would just be a bit of a disaster in any kind of competition but would be handy as a wee road motor pulling old carp onto the trailer.The leaf front suspension is dreadful but still better than dragging a track rod hanging below the axle through the tree stumps that surround the house and has more travel than a standard coiler. With the engine so far back there's plenty room for four links and a transverse leaf spring.. Or not.

Hmmmm, dunno what to do.....

WARNING: For those not interested in Engesa 25's please look away now.

PS, photos of the inside of the Engasa walking beam would be interesting, as I would be interested in knowing if they incorporate a planetary reduction unit concentric with the pivot.

Bill, sorry, when I said

I've got photos somewhere of inside the walking beam.

I really thought I did, maybe I don't after all. The only ones I can find are from one we cleared on a mined road in Angola:

I don't recall their being a planetary gearset in there, I think there would be some reduction as not all gears are the same size but I wouldn't like to guess how much. I'd say these trucks are really strong and well made. Loads of them laying around in Angola. Maybe possible to guess from the spacing between the gears on a better example than this one.

[bill van snorkle]

Thanks for the pics Jaime. yes it looks like a regular truck axle drive flange poking through that centre pivot, without planetary reduction. The photos might be better placed in Teunicos 6x6 thread on the international forum that I bumped up back to page one this morning.

Actually I think 'ploppitty plop plops' sounds more distasteful than the word it filters out, which was originally only an acronym for the instruction 'Store High In Transit', and dates back to the old sailing ship days when they used to stack sacks of manure in the holds.

[Daan]

I don't recall their being a planetary gearset in there, I think there would be some reduction as not all gears are the same size but I wouldn't like to guess how much. I'd say these trucks are really strong and well made. Loads of them laying around in Angola. Maybe possible to guess from the spacing between the gears on a better example than this one.

Love the way they achieved a diff lock using simple parts; drive another shaft parralel to the diff with a dog clutch in between to lock it. Similar to how i achieved a difflock with lego technic, all those years ago!

[seriebil.dk]

I Think the reduction is in the wheel hub, that is the way we have it in these machines..

http://komatsuforest.com/default.aspx?id=84551

The rear hub is missing at the picture from Angola

[Jamie_grieve]

I Think the reduction is in the wheel hub, that is the way we have it in these machines..

http://komatsuforest.com/default.aspx?id=84551

The rear hub is missing at the picture from Angola

The wheel hubs don't have any reduction in them like the forwarder in your picture but one other interesting thing is the pipe joining all three sections is to provide positive air pressure to prevent the ingress of dust and water. Sometimes the regulator fails and oil blows out of the damaged seals.

I see you are a leaf sprung enthusiast

What do you think I should do with the old Stage one?

[bill van snorkle]

Love the way they achieved a diff lock using simple parts; drive another shaft parralel to the diff with a dog clutch in between to lock it. Similar to how i achieved a difflock with lego technic, all those years ago!

Maybe simple in Leggo Daan, but adding what are basically an additional pair of portal boxes with an interconnecting cross shaft is probably the most complicated method i can imagine for a vehicle manufacturer to acheive something as mechanically simple as locking a diff.

[dirtydiesel]

I took loads of photos rebuilding the front one, I should make another thread called 'santana axles' or some such or add it to this one?

A new thread on the Santana axles would be good, especially if you could add some insight into fitting them under the series.

I'd keep the TRM 7.5" centres as they're so much stronger than a Toyota 8" and already have diff locks. It's the axle tubes that are the problem, they are 1/2" thick and weigh nearly half a ton complete with centre and portal boxes. Altogether I have 2 front axles and 3 back axles but two of them are busy converting a six cylinder phaser engined Renault midliner to four wheel drive.

If I used the front portal boxes they would make fantastic independent units.

[img=http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb241/jamie_grieve/Rockwell%20portal%20axle/P7011854.jpg]

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/general-4x4-discussion/924706-portal-axle-rockwell.html

is an old thread about these axles. I'm at about the same place now as i was back when I posted it. I've been back for a few months but couldn't do anything because I had a properly prolapsed disc that was stopping me from walking properly or doing anything.

With 3:1 in the portal boxes just about any diff would be strong enough, tjmark on pirate pushed 650hp through a 8"toy center with 404 portal boxes without any diff failures.

I don't know, I want at least the capping, waist line and something to keep it looking like a Land rover. I don't like the look of tray backs but the upward wheel travel means the wheel boxes are level with the waist line. I had some made from old road signs when it was on the road. The problem is it's just a toy with no purpose. If it had to carry something it would have a tub, if it had to lift something it would have a crane and if it had to pull something it would have a huge winch and that's kinda the problem with where to go. The roll cage stays would dictate the shape a litle but I'm not sure I want to keep using this chassis.

Can I ask what would you guys do with it?

Given your usage i'd return it to somewhere near the first pic you posted, then build yourself a buggy with the rest of your components.

[Jamie_grieve]

suggest that due to unsprung mass, whatever you build would have more in common with a 4wd tractor than a European spec comp vehicle

Bill, you put a seed of thought in my mind when you said this.

Now it's all gone horribly wrong.

I noticed that with one of the 6.36 Rockwell diffs and 52" tyres from the shed that a front axle with 32" tyres fitted with a 3.9 diff would work. My 9.00's let down to 12psi gave me the right ratio with the Santana axle to make a Land Rover tractor with big back tyres and small front ones.

This totally isn't the direction I wanted the poor old thing to go in but I feel like a pawn sometimes when I look at the various bits of stuff lying around.

The axle is a spare one I had lying around I robbed the difflock out of for a buggy that isn't built yet. It's just bolted solid to the chassis like a proper tractor would be with no suspension. I might use it as a mule to sort out proper suspension for the buggy later. Anyway, here's some photos. The back wheels are on the wrong way because I didn't want to cut the rear crossmember as I'm still determined for the thing to look like a Land Rover one day.

I'm pleased how the front wheels move on the leaf springs but it's not really enough for no suspension on the rear and no rear difflock for proper silly off roading but it's still kinda fun.

I haven't forgot about the Santana info, I just never got round to it yet. Sorry!!!

[bill van snorkle]

Bill, you put a seed of thought in my mind when you said this.

Now it's all gone horribly wrong.

I noticed that with one of the 6.36 Rockwell diffs and 52" tyres from the shed that a front axle with 32" tyres fitted with a 3.9 diff would work. My 9.00's let down to 12psi gave me the right ratio with the Santana axle to make a Land Rover tractor with big back tyres and small front ones.

This totally isn't the direction I wanted the poor old thing to go in but I feel like a pawn sometimes when I look at the various bits of stuff lying around.

The axle is a spare one I had lying around I robbed the difflock out of for a buggy that isn't built yet. It's just bolted solid to the chassis like a proper tractor would be with no suspension. I might use it as a mule to sort out proper suspension for the buggy later. Anyway, here's some photos. The back wheels are on the wrong way because I didn't want to cut the rear crossmember as I'm still determined for the thing to look like a Land Rover one day.

I'm pleased how the front wheels move on the leaf springs but it's not really enough for no suspension on the rear and no rear difflock for proper silly off roading but it's still kinda fun.

I haven't forgot about the Santana info, I just never got round to it yet. Sorry!!!

Glad to see I'm not the only one that uses "expensive" bluestone blocks for his rock crawling course, lol! Project doesn't appear to have gone horribly wrong to me! I feel it is about time the 'Forest Rover' was recreated, but with difflocks, power steer and a proper front suspension.

[De Ranged]

LOL That is so cool on a real red neck level .... I"ve always wanted to get an old small logging skidder and take the axles out and drop them wheels and all under a truck and rock up on a club run.... just to stir LOL I'd win the biggest tyre contest hands down and the strongest diffs

[bill van snorkle]

The back wheels are on the wrong way because I didn't want to cut the rear crossmember as I'm still determined for the thing to look like a Land Rover one day.

IMO, regardless of how much the bodywork is re arranged, it is the divided windscreen that immediately identifies the vehicle as a LandRover.